rbd23 - c
- Thread starter smegged
- Start date
...
It was there all along...yeah, yeah. That's the ticket...
Either that or I just uploaded it to
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/rbd23c-150bc.zip
One or the other.
Arathorn
P.S. need to edit again for another typo (although)
It was there all along...yeah, yeah. That's the ticket... Either that or I just uploaded it to
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/rbd23c-150bc.zip
One or the other.
Arathorn
P.S. need to edit again for another typo (although)
Why are we going for republic BTW?
Wouldn't Monarchy be better for our cause?
The Corruption is the same for both governments, or atleast according to the "Do you know how corruption works?" - Thread (name cauld be another?).
The only difference money wise is that Republic gets the Commerce bonus, which could help us with our money. But we should probably do a fast change to Monarchy when we are offensive.
The Idea about having our Main Continent as a Horse Factory would be good, and upgrading them on the other continent.
The only problem is that it costs 80 Gold to upgrade a horse to a Samurai.
Domination might be a better target... but as this is a Archipelago there will be a lot of coast and that is counted towards the limit. So we will probably have to capture alot of cities and then Whip the Temple ASAP if we are going to have a quick domination victory.
We would probably have to conquet a large part of the World. The Aztec/Zulu continent won't be enough.
If we raze all cities it might go quicker. But to win fast with the Conquest win we need to Attack Zulu and perhaps even Aztec the same time, and at the same time move our Galleys (which we would need many of if this is going to be fast) to the other side of the continent, to wait for the Samurai's. When the Samurai's are done, they will be loaded to the Galleys and shipped to the next continent and so on...
If we win at the year 1000 AD our bonus would be 4160 Points (If this is Monarch).
If we wait only 20 Turns and win at 1200 AD or bonus would be only 3360
1000 AD is 95 turns from now. (150 BC)
Wouldn't Monarchy be better for our cause?
The Corruption is the same for both governments, or atleast according to the "Do you know how corruption works?" - Thread (name cauld be another?).
The only difference money wise is that Republic gets the Commerce bonus, which could help us with our money. But we should probably do a fast change to Monarchy when we are offensive.
The Idea about having our Main Continent as a Horse Factory would be good, and upgrading them on the other continent.
The only problem is that it costs 80 Gold to upgrade a horse to a Samurai.
Domination might be a better target... but as this is a Archipelago there will be a lot of coast and that is counted towards the limit. So we will probably have to capture alot of cities and then Whip the Temple ASAP if we are going to have a quick domination victory.
We would probably have to conquet a large part of the World. The Aztec/Zulu continent won't be enough.
If we raze all cities it might go quicker. But to win fast with the Conquest win we need to Attack Zulu and perhaps even Aztec the same time, and at the same time move our Galleys (which we would need many of if this is going to be fast) to the other side of the continent, to wait for the Samurai's. When the Samurai's are done, they will be loaded to the Galleys and shipped to the next continent and so on...
If we win at the year 1000 AD our bonus would be 4160 Points (If this is Monarch).
If we wait only 20 Turns and win at 1200 AD or bonus would be only 3360
1000 AD is 95 turns from now. (150 BC)
Republic is actually pretty easy to go to war under. It doesn't collapse and only suffers low war-weariness. With 5 luxuries under our belt (with a Zulu defeat, add Dyes, Gems, and Wine to the three on Japan), we can handle quite a bit of weariness, too. And the extra commerce can be quite significant. Also, it got passed to me that way! 
Why do you think razing cities would be faster than capturing them? Maybe at the very end, if we just have to wipe out Russia for the win.... But, in general, if you're wiping out the whole civ (and that's what we'll be doing, once we get going), you can capture the cities just as fast. Open areas are just BEGGING for settler/defender pairs from uninvolved AI, which makes defense more dicey and spread out. If you have a continent producing units, even if they're shipped out rapidly, it's awfully difficult to attack -- especially for the AI. If you leave behind an empty continent, it's just begging for trouble. Am I missing something?
The ultimate domination/conquest victory decision can wait -- both require the same first steps, IMO. That step is, of course, conquering the A/Z island and making it productive for the Japanese.
95 turns? Hmmm... That's not even twice more through the line-up. Gonna be extremely tough. Zulus in 50, Aztecs another 15 after that. 20 at least for Persia. Leaves 10 for Russia. Wowsers! I think even 1200 AD is a big goal.
(I don't think it will affect our score by 800 points, though, as our score will be increasing each turn we keep playing. Still, the earlier the better. I just don't want to overextend too far and get our heads chopped off!)
Arathorn
Why do you think razing cities would be faster than capturing them? Maybe at the very end, if we just have to wipe out Russia for the win.... But, in general, if you're wiping out the whole civ (and that's what we'll be doing, once we get going), you can capture the cities just as fast. Open areas are just BEGGING for settler/defender pairs from uninvolved AI, which makes defense more dicey and spread out. If you have a continent producing units, even if they're shipped out rapidly, it's awfully difficult to attack -- especially for the AI. If you leave behind an empty continent, it's just begging for trouble. Am I missing something?
The ultimate domination/conquest victory decision can wait -- both require the same first steps, IMO. That step is, of course, conquering the A/Z island and making it productive for the Japanese.
95 turns? Hmmm... That's not even twice more through the line-up. Gonna be extremely tough. Zulus in 50, Aztecs another 15 after that. 20 at least for Persia. Leaves 10 for Russia. Wowsers! I think even 1200 AD is a big goal.
(I don't think it will affect our score by 800 points, though, as our score will be increasing each turn we keep playing. Still, the earlier the better. I just don't want to overextend too far and get our heads chopped off!)
Arathorn
Response to Arathorn.
On Satsuma harbour: Hmm, resources. The only real reasons we need resources in Satsuma are if we plan to build military there in the next little while, and for happiness as you pointed out. While I don't think we're too likely to do the former as it has too much infrastructure to catch up on, the latter is definately valid, especially since we have no temple. A granary's not much use (except for popping workers) if we can't grow big enough to take significant advantage of it. So, harbour first makes sense from that standpoint.
On Kagoshima: Ok, will have to look at map of lands around Kagoshima to see how badly it is being squeezed. Did Aztecs build a temple in one of their cities? Last time I checked it was missing about 3 squares out of its radius but didn't look like that bad a flip-candidate to me. If it were just happiness, whipping a harbour might be better. Maybe we can swap to warrior, whip a harbour, and upgrade to sword??? We can still buy a temple when we get to republic if that's not waiting too long. Just tossing out ideas. If we need culture there NOW, and not in 20 turns or so when Republic arrives, then it's got to be whip a temple, and to heck with slowing the growth curve or inefficiency. Walls or spear (or catapult??) is our only decision in that case. How many shields is it getting per turn? If it's still just one then to get the culture out soonest we probably want the walls.
On growth: I would think we need more than just a couple more workers. I'll have to check the map now to see how things stand, but there were tons of projects that needed doing on my turn, and I doubt things have really changed all that much in the meantime. As far as settlers go, the only little towns we have left to build on Japan are purely for culture-locking our borders. If we're not worried about culture-locking our island, I would think that the courthouse is better than the settler in Berlin.
I'll have to check the map this evening or tomorrow morning and see what's up. Of course, by then Lovro may have already taken his turn...
On Satsuma harbour: Hmm, resources. The only real reasons we need resources in Satsuma are if we plan to build military there in the next little while, and for happiness as you pointed out. While I don't think we're too likely to do the former as it has too much infrastructure to catch up on, the latter is definately valid, especially since we have no temple. A granary's not much use (except for popping workers) if we can't grow big enough to take significant advantage of it. So, harbour first makes sense from that standpoint.
On Kagoshima: Ok, will have to look at map of lands around Kagoshima to see how badly it is being squeezed. Did Aztecs build a temple in one of their cities? Last time I checked it was missing about 3 squares out of its radius but didn't look like that bad a flip-candidate to me. If it were just happiness, whipping a harbour might be better. Maybe we can swap to warrior, whip a harbour, and upgrade to sword??? We can still buy a temple when we get to republic if that's not waiting too long. Just tossing out ideas. If we need culture there NOW, and not in 20 turns or so when Republic arrives, then it's got to be whip a temple, and to heck with slowing the growth curve or inefficiency. Walls or spear (or catapult??) is our only decision in that case. How many shields is it getting per turn? If it's still just one then to get the culture out soonest we probably want the walls.
On growth: I would think we need more than just a couple more workers. I'll have to check the map now to see how things stand, but there were tons of projects that needed doing on my turn, and I doubt things have really changed all that much in the meantime. As far as settlers go, the only little towns we have left to build on Japan are purely for culture-locking our borders. If we're not worried about culture-locking our island, I would think that the courthouse is better than the settler in Berlin.
I'll have to check the map this evening or tomorrow morning and see what's up. Of course, by then Lovro may have already taken his turn...
BTW, Grey Fox, it takes 160 gold, not 80, to upgrade a horse to a Samurai. The formula is 4xshields; a horse is 30 shields, a Samurai 70.
EDIT: Hmm. I thought upgrade and rush costs were the same. If not, I stand corrected.
Making a continent-wide horse factory is going to get us a lot of horses and a couple samurai. Making a push for a sound economic infrastructure and a moderate amount of horses will get us a moderate number of samurai.
EDIT: Hmm. I thought upgrade and rush costs were the same. If not, I stand corrected.
Making a continent-wide horse factory is going to get us a lot of horses and a couple samurai. Making a push for a sound economic infrastructure and a moderate amount of horses will get us a moderate number of samurai.
Kagoshima is getting squeezed no worse than it was. I just don't want to see putting off culture there too much longer, as it could get squeezed much worse if either/both of those Aztec cities get uppity. If it builds its temple first, IT can do the squeezing.
Somebody have the civ calculator handy? I lost my link. What are odds for different outcomes.
Assume two attacking regular archers (offense 2, no retreat).
Case 1: Defense is a vet spear fortified behind walls (but will have to do both fights so might have hps DOWN a fair chunk when second attacks) and no other benefits.
Case 2: Defense is a vet spear and a regular warrior fortified with no walls.
Case 3: Regular warrior attacks archer and then whatever shakes out attacks vet spear fortified with no walls.
If bold...
Case 4: One vet and one regular spear defender.
Case 5: One vet spear and a catapult (which launches once before the attack and then on the first attack) [might be a 5a and a 5b here]
What's our best chance? Kagoshima is a ways from barracks AND harbor necessary to upgrade to sword, so count that idea right out.
I gotta agree with Grey Fox on upgrade costs. RUSH costs are 4*shields necessary (8* if no shields at all on the project). Upgrade cost is always 2*(difference in shield costs). Thus, upgrading a warrior (10 shields) to a swordsman (30 shields) costs 2*(30-10) = 2*20 = 40 gold, which matches the game. Horseman (30) to knight (70) is thus 2*(70-30)=80 gold for the upgrade.
Regardless, we need a very sound economic footing before we go expecting to make a lot of samurai from horsemen. Still, 6-10 is realistic, IMO.
Playing devil's advocate a bit on Satsuma harbor... Do goods cross coasts if the culture borders touch? I seem to remember reading something about that, but from a source I didn't completely trust and have never really had a chance to try it out myself. If they *DO* cross without needing harbors, then we should go for the granary. Anybody know for certain? Either way, though, I think the barracks (only 20 shields, so 10 turns) has to take top priority. At that point, this question will probably also be answered so we'll know.
I never have enough workers, Zed, so you'll probably have to build 'em yourself. One of my Civ3 flaws (although one off-line game, I was actually building a ton of 'em -- there are others worse). I usually get around to it when size is maxed, but it's too often too low priority for me. Sorry.
Arathorn
P.S. Wonder if discussions like this jacked up b's thread. Or if they're in 1500 AD and we just talk a lot....
Somebody have the civ calculator handy? I lost my link. What are odds for different outcomes.
Assume two attacking regular archers (offense 2, no retreat).
Case 1: Defense is a vet spear fortified behind walls (but will have to do both fights so might have hps DOWN a fair chunk when second attacks) and no other benefits.
Case 2: Defense is a vet spear and a regular warrior fortified with no walls.
Case 3: Regular warrior attacks archer and then whatever shakes out attacks vet spear fortified with no walls.
If bold...
Case 4: One vet and one regular spear defender.
Case 5: One vet spear and a catapult (which launches once before the attack and then on the first attack) [might be a 5a and a 5b here]
What's our best chance? Kagoshima is a ways from barracks AND harbor necessary to upgrade to sword, so count that idea right out.
I gotta agree with Grey Fox on upgrade costs. RUSH costs are 4*shields necessary (8* if no shields at all on the project). Upgrade cost is always 2*(difference in shield costs). Thus, upgrading a warrior (10 shields) to a swordsman (30 shields) costs 2*(30-10) = 2*20 = 40 gold, which matches the game. Horseman (30) to knight (70) is thus 2*(70-30)=80 gold for the upgrade.
Regardless, we need a very sound economic footing before we go expecting to make a lot of samurai from horsemen. Still, 6-10 is realistic, IMO.
Playing devil's advocate a bit on Satsuma harbor... Do goods cross coasts if the culture borders touch? I seem to remember reading something about that, but from a source I didn't completely trust and have never really had a chance to try it out myself. If they *DO* cross without needing harbors, then we should go for the granary. Anybody know for certain? Either way, though, I think the barracks (only 20 shields, so 10 turns) has to take top priority. At that point, this question will probably also be answered so we'll know.
I never have enough workers, Zed, so you'll probably have to build 'em yourself. One of my Civ3 flaws (although one off-line game, I was actually building a ton of 'em -- there are others worse). I usually get around to it when size is maxed, but it's too often too low priority for me. Sorry.
Arathorn
P.S. Wonder if discussions like this jacked up b's thread. Or if they're in 1500 AD and we just talk a lot....
Here we go.
(0) 150 BC: Changed Kagoshima to spearman. Ouch, a lot of our cities are undefended. I just hope Shaka doesn't notice
(1) 130 BC: Temple finished in Leipzig, spearman ordered. Spearman fortified in Berlin. Swordsman shipped across. Micromanaged Osaka so that it doesn't waste any shields building horseman.
(2) 110 BC: One warrior becomes a swordsman. Galley returns to Edo. Zulu galley still heading north.
(3) 90 BC: Osaka finishes horseman. Spearman ordered (due in 4 turns). Spearman on Z island heals. Hmmm... Swazi on a hills, Tugela on a grassland. Tugela it is, then. Yet another warrior becomes a swordsman. Persia and Aztecs have signed a military alliance against Zululand.
Zimbabwe finishes Oracle.
(4) 70 BC: Currency pops out of the Library. "The discoveries of *our* (
) Alchemists have led to a new era of prosperity for our people, Sir!"; We get free Monotheism. Kyoto finishes aqueduct, horseman ordered. There is a potential waste of shields, but we'll just see about that. Another swordsman shipped to Satsuma. Persia and Aztecia start work on the Great Wall.
(5) 50 BC: Veteran spearman defeats Impi in Tugela (Z island) without a scratch *and* becomes elite Granary in Kyoto put into overdrive, no shield lost building spearman. Persepolis finishes Great Wall. Zulu regular archer emerges from Tugela on Z island.
(6) 30 BC: Kyoto is growing no more, producing 10 shields per turn. Worker will be ordered as soon as horseman is finished. Zulu galley on the far north of our island still hasn't landed any troops.
(7) 10 BC: Zulu galley takes a turn to the east. Osaka finishes spearman, horseman ordered. Kyoto finishes horseman, worker ordered. Tugela razed to the ground by our tired spearman (1 HP left). Conscript warrior killed in a brave (and successful) attempt to defend our elite spearman.
(8) 10 AD: Now what to do with Kyoto? I decide to go for no growth and another horseman in 3 turns. Spearman on Z island tries to evade Zulu archer.
(9) 30 AD: Edo finishes temple, workers finish mine nearby. Edo switched to building spearman and no growth. Satsuma finishes barracks, harbor ordered.
(10) 50 AD: Russians land a settler/warrior pair on the far north of New Japan! They're pretty far behind in tech (you don't say, eh?). I sell math and polytheism to them for 54 gp + world map. It's just a matter of time before they meet the Zulus, though. Russia is not at all a nice place to live, tundra/hills/plains. Although (note the spelling) they have a fresh water lake right next to Moscow, they have no way of transporting water to the plains or grasslands. Bummer Kagoshima finishes spearman, temple ordered (to be whipped?). Harbor whipped in Satsuma. Archer in pursuit of our spearman on Z island, heading for mountains. Once it reaches them, there is a 45% chance that we'll win the fight, but we can't get any better than that. OTOH, there is a 19% chance that we can attack him out in the open and win, so the former choice is obviously the better one.
I'm not sure if I was supposed to whip the courthouse in Berlin, that might have been a major mistake (not doing it, that is). I'm not completely into how whipping works (shieldwise), is there an article on it or would someone mind explaining it to me? Thanks.
Not much for the next leader (Grey Fox). Watch the Zulu galley near Konigsberg, the temple in Kagoshima and try to save the spearman on Z island.
We should figure out how to handle Kyoto and Osaka. Right now they're both building horsemen (Osaka at 6 shields per turn, Kyoto at 10). Xerxes is currently asking for 20 gold in order to make peace.
No fights around Satsuma.
The game: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/rbd23-c-50ad.zip
(0) 150 BC: Changed Kagoshima to spearman. Ouch, a lot of our cities are undefended. I just hope Shaka doesn't notice
(1) 130 BC: Temple finished in Leipzig, spearman ordered. Spearman fortified in Berlin. Swordsman shipped across. Micromanaged Osaka so that it doesn't waste any shields building horseman.
(2) 110 BC: One warrior becomes a swordsman. Galley returns to Edo. Zulu galley still heading north.
(3) 90 BC: Osaka finishes horseman. Spearman ordered (due in 4 turns). Spearman on Z island heals. Hmmm... Swazi on a hills, Tugela on a grassland. Tugela it is, then. Yet another warrior becomes a swordsman. Persia and Aztecs have signed a military alliance against Zululand.
Zimbabwe finishes Oracle.(4) 70 BC: Currency pops out of the Library. "The discoveries of *our* (
) Alchemists have led to a new era of prosperity for our people, Sir!"; We get free Monotheism. Kyoto finishes aqueduct, horseman ordered. There is a potential waste of shields, but we'll just see about that. Another swordsman shipped to Satsuma. Persia and Aztecia start work on the Great Wall.(5) 50 BC: Veteran spearman defeats Impi in Tugela (Z island) without a scratch *and* becomes elite
Granary in Kyoto put into overdrive, no shield lost building spearman. Persepolis finishes Great Wall. Zulu regular archer emerges from Tugela on Z island.(6) 30 BC: Kyoto is growing no more, producing 10 shields per turn. Worker will be ordered as soon as horseman is finished. Zulu galley on the far north of our island still hasn't landed any troops.
(7) 10 BC: Zulu galley takes a turn to the east. Osaka finishes spearman, horseman ordered. Kyoto finishes horseman, worker ordered. Tugela razed to the ground by our tired spearman (1 HP left). Conscript warrior killed in a brave (and successful) attempt to defend our elite spearman.
(8) 10 AD: Now what to do with Kyoto? I decide to go for no growth and another horseman in 3 turns. Spearman on Z island tries to evade Zulu archer.
(9) 30 AD: Edo finishes temple, workers finish mine nearby. Edo switched to building spearman and no growth. Satsuma finishes barracks, harbor ordered.
(10) 50 AD: Russians land a settler/warrior pair on the far north of New Japan!
They're pretty far behind in tech (you don't say, eh?). I sell math and polytheism to them for 54 gp + world map. It's just a matter of time before they meet the Zulus, though. Russia is not at all a nice place to live, tundra/hills/plains. Although (note the spelling) they have a fresh water lake right next to Moscow, they have no way of transporting water to the plains or grasslands. Bummer Kagoshima finishes spearman, temple ordered (to be whipped?). Harbor whipped in Satsuma. Archer in pursuit of our spearman on Z island, heading for mountains. Once it reaches them, there is a 45% chance that we'll win the fight, but we can't get any better than that. OTOH, there is a 19% chance that we can attack him out in the open and win, so the former choice is obviously the better one.I'm not sure if I was supposed to whip the courthouse in Berlin, that might have been a major mistake (not doing it, that is). I'm not completely into how whipping works (shieldwise), is there an article on it or would someone mind explaining it to me? Thanks.
Not much for the next leader (Grey Fox). Watch the Zulu galley near Konigsberg, the temple in Kagoshima and try to save the spearman on Z island.
We should figure out how to handle Kyoto and Osaka. Right now they're both building horsemen (Osaka at 6 shields per turn, Kyoto at 10). Xerxes is currently asking for 20 gold in order to make peace.
No fights around Satsuma.
The game: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/rbd23-c-50ad.zip
I haven't been able to post much, but It sure looks like things are going well. That 54 gold per turn thing was great! That should really help if we decide to to the horseman upgrade thing.
Just a few, probably minor thoughts, but I thought I should say them:
I am also against razing all the Aztec and Zulu cities. If we raze them, we are going to have to build tons of settlers to fill them in, and in all likelihood the AI will plant more cities down. I definitely think we need to overtake the entire A/Z territory, and then we can raze when we get around to killing the Persians and Russians.
Other than that, I don't have much to add. Build lots of Samurai!
Just a few, probably minor thoughts, but I thought I should say them:
I am also against razing all the Aztec and Zulu cities. If we raze them, we are going to have to build tons of settlers to fill them in, and in all likelihood the AI will plant more cities down. I definitely think we need to overtake the entire A/Z territory, and then we can raze when we get around to killing the Persians and Russians.
Other than that, I don't have much to add. Build lots of Samurai!
I would whip in Kagoshima, but I'm not sure it's right.
Whipping is an interesting problem. On the one hand, you can get up to 39 shields for each point of population sacrificed. (The first is worth 39, provided at least one shield has been spent. Each one later is worth 20 shields, so getting a granary from one shield takes two lives (unless they've changed things up on me in 1.17 -- I've not had to be quite so careful with second lives in a while).)
The difficulty in evaluating its efficacy comes from the fact that those lost population points would have produced shields -- and those shields are "per turn" shields, to a certain extant, in that they would continue to accrue. In cases like a granary or a courthouse, it can be a net positive, because the regrowing is faster or the post-courthouse corruption is enough lower that total shield output is the same, even with less population, but it's always hard to tell.
I don't know of a good thread that really discusses this in detail. The general idea pops up from time to time. In general, the more productive a city is (less corruption it has), the more hurtful it is to whip, because the whipped-away citizen would have stayed and continued to produce -- over time more than making up for the one-time gain of up to 39 shields. If, however, the city is tragically corrupt, there's no real loss, as the "dead" citizen(s) wouldn't have been producing shields anyway. (Similar argument about gold holds but it's even hairier.)
The flip side is that sometimes SPEED is critical. "If I don't get <blah> now, I might lose the city and never get another chance." Who cares what future production is lost if that future production is someone else's? I suspect this is the case in Kagoshima now, which is why I think we should whip, but it's far from a certainty. Kagoshima's on the fringe of "totally corrupt" and the long-term cost could easily outweigh the short-term gain. It's a matter of balance and touch. Sometimes you're right, sometimes you're wrong. Sometimes you're right and it doesn't matter anyway.
For Berlin, it's another tricky issue. On the one hand, Berlin isn't that corrupt (only ~50% as I recall) and so shouldn't be whipped. Countering that is the fact that Berlin couldn't grow, being at size 6, potentially losing some of that benefit. Add in the fact that one of the squares Berlin was working was ONLY producing food and no shields and it's even harder to calculate which was right.
I probably would have done as you did and not whipped (I almost never whip unless one citizen will do it) but I could easily be wrong. It might really be up to Grey Fox, depending on when exactly the 39-shield barrier was hit. If it's passed, I probably would not whip Berlin at all -- just let it use its shields.
Good job with Tegula -- might buy us a bit of leverage in peace negotiations -- if/when we do that.
Hmm...time to attack from Satsuma? If Shaka didn't attack us and we have 3 archers and 3 sword there.... Hmmm.... Glad it's not my call. Touch-and-go decision.
Monotheism ALSO popped from the library. Most likely, Mony discovered Currency, shopped it, giving Xerxes Monotheism (he's the scientific one around) who then shopped Monotheism, so both popped out of the GL for us. We're NOT scientific so we don't get that free tech. Two techs to Chivalry now....
What is Shaka doing with that galley??? It worries me.
I would sell contact with Russia to Aztecs for highest possible price. And probably make peace with Persia and sell to Xerxes, too. Might not be right but should be profitable.
Arathorn
Whipping is an interesting problem. On the one hand, you can get up to 39 shields for each point of population sacrificed. (The first is worth 39, provided at least one shield has been spent. Each one later is worth 20 shields, so getting a granary from one shield takes two lives (unless they've changed things up on me in 1.17 -- I've not had to be quite so careful with second lives in a while).)
The difficulty in evaluating its efficacy comes from the fact that those lost population points would have produced shields -- and those shields are "per turn" shields, to a certain extant, in that they would continue to accrue. In cases like a granary or a courthouse, it can be a net positive, because the regrowing is faster or the post-courthouse corruption is enough lower that total shield output is the same, even with less population, but it's always hard to tell.
I don't know of a good thread that really discusses this in detail. The general idea pops up from time to time. In general, the more productive a city is (less corruption it has), the more hurtful it is to whip, because the whipped-away citizen would have stayed and continued to produce -- over time more than making up for the one-time gain of up to 39 shields. If, however, the city is tragically corrupt, there's no real loss, as the "dead" citizen(s) wouldn't have been producing shields anyway. (Similar argument about gold holds but it's even hairier.)
The flip side is that sometimes SPEED is critical. "If I don't get <blah> now, I might lose the city and never get another chance." Who cares what future production is lost if that future production is someone else's? I suspect this is the case in Kagoshima now, which is why I think we should whip, but it's far from a certainty. Kagoshima's on the fringe of "totally corrupt" and the long-term cost could easily outweigh the short-term gain. It's a matter of balance and touch. Sometimes you're right, sometimes you're wrong. Sometimes you're right and it doesn't matter anyway.
For Berlin, it's another tricky issue. On the one hand, Berlin isn't that corrupt (only ~50% as I recall) and so shouldn't be whipped. Countering that is the fact that Berlin couldn't grow, being at size 6, potentially losing some of that benefit. Add in the fact that one of the squares Berlin was working was ONLY producing food and no shields and it's even harder to calculate which was right.
I probably would have done as you did and not whipped (I almost never whip unless one citizen will do it) but I could easily be wrong. It might really be up to Grey Fox, depending on when exactly the 39-shield barrier was hit. If it's passed, I probably would not whip Berlin at all -- just let it use its shields.
Good job with Tegula -- might buy us a bit of leverage in peace negotiations -- if/when we do that.
Hmm...time to attack from Satsuma? If Shaka didn't attack us and we have 3 archers and 3 sword there.... Hmmm.... Glad it's not my call. Touch-and-go decision.
Monotheism ALSO popped from the library. Most likely, Mony discovered Currency, shopped it, giving Xerxes Monotheism (he's the scientific one around) who then shopped Monotheism, so both popped out of the GL for us. We're NOT scientific so we don't get that free tech. Two techs to Chivalry now....
What is Shaka doing with that galley??? It worries me.
I would sell contact with Russia to Aztecs for highest possible price. And probably make peace with Persia and sell to Xerxes, too. Might not be right but should be profitable.
Arathorn
Thanks a lot, Arathorn.
You explained it from the ground up, although (note the spelling) I already understood the basics: the loss of per turn production in developed cities and why it's so effective with corrupted cities. I needed the numbers, thanks again.
I'd calculate the odds for ya, but it seems that two different calculators give different results... The one I trust more doesn't have the "chance of attacker winning at least one round" option, while the other one does. It has been some time since I downloaded them (3 months), though, so something might have changed.
You explained it from the ground up, although (note the spelling) I already understood the basics: the loss of per turn production in developed cities and why it's so effective with corrupted cities. I needed the numbers, thanks again.
I'd calculate the odds for ya, but it seems that two different calculators give different results... The one I trust more doesn't have the "chance of attacker winning at least one round" option, while the other one does. It has been some time since I downloaded them (3 months), though, so something might have changed.
Well, I guess we don't need to calculate that particular battle now anyway.
My guess: the galley is EMPTY, or contains a settler/spear pair. Shaka was either sending it to go find the Russians (sounds like it was heading straight for them) or to go find an empty spot of land to settle (like NE Japan before Russia landed a settler.) Thanx, Cathy, for saving us a settler -- I'm sure that town will flip to us eventually! And if not, well, there's nothing worthwhile near there anyway. If Shaka wanted to unload troops off of that galley, he would have done it by now. If we want more defense in Kagoshima, we can hump it up from Satsuma now.
Well, we're 10 turns closer to Republic, leaving what, 9 left? We still can whip a harbour at Kagoshima (maybe a granary?? depends on whether we can get 21 shields together reasonably fast) and buy a temple, if we so choose. Saving ~10 turns doesn't seem worth the loss of potential. If we wanted to whip the temple, we should have swapped to warrior/walls to get some use of our stored shields and whipped the temple immediately.
Still looking forward to checking the map tonite/tomorrow and seeing what's up, for better commentary...
My guess: the galley is EMPTY, or contains a settler/spear pair. Shaka was either sending it to go find the Russians (sounds like it was heading straight for them) or to go find an empty spot of land to settle (like NE Japan before Russia landed a settler.) Thanx, Cathy, for saving us a settler -- I'm sure that town will flip to us eventually!
And if not, well, there's nothing worthwhile near there anyway. If Shaka wanted to unload troops off of that galley, he would have done it by now. If we want more defense in Kagoshima, we can hump it up from Satsuma now.Well, we're 10 turns closer to Republic, leaving what, 9 left? We still can whip a harbour at Kagoshima (maybe a granary?? depends on whether we can get 21 shields together reasonably fast) and buy a temple, if we so choose. Saving ~10 turns doesn't seem worth the loss of potential. If we wanted to whip the temple, we should have swapped to warrior/walls to get some use of our stored shields and whipped the temple immediately.
Still looking forward to checking the map tonite/tomorrow and seeing what's up, for better commentary...
Ok, here's some suggestions for what to do next, after looking at our cities. All of this is my opinion only!
Berlin: We're down to 2 shields of 9 here, but we don't have any whip memory; whip that courthouse in 3 turns when we get down to 39 shields remaining. After that, not sure. Is it more valuable building support troops and workers/settlers to improve/found other cities with less corruption, or do we want to try to grow it to 12 despite its corruption levels? Probably the former, though the good terrain it's on makes it tempting to try for the latter. I just think that it's doomed to become a tragic city as we expand further into Zululand and our city count increases, so we probably don't need to invest in too much city infrastructure. The courthouse and granary were worth it, and a barracks would be nice too, but let's turn it into a support city from now on; additional infrastructure here won't pay off in the long run.
Leipzig: Similar story to Berlin, though less developed. In fact it's probably less corrupt than Berlin so might be worth more of an investment, eventually. An alternative to building the spearman is to swap to granary and whip it in a few turns, then restart the spear. Otherwise, finish the spear, whip a harbour and swap it to granary, getting a good start on the latter before we hit Republic. The workers around Berlin should really be moved up here since their efforts might eventually mean something that way -- don't interrupt projects that are already underway, however.
Konigsberg: Finish the temple and whip a harbour, otherwise it'll never grow.
Frankfurt: It'll only have 1 shield for a LONG time, and is about as corrupt as Berlin so it's not worth spending money on, so anything moderately expensive we really want, we'd better try to whip now. We could whip a granary easily enough but we don't need one, since we can't build workers any faster than we can grow even without one. We do need culture to expand our borders, however. Here's another loopy idea, swap to Granary, whip it, and swap to Library??? After it's done we could build a temple in a reasonable amount of time. Let it finish the temple and whip a horsie just before Republic? Or, just build the temple and let it grow normally?
Nara: Bleh, just got founded, can't whip anything yet. We should probably have founded it one square to the east (still a canal city) so it could at least get some food going! As it stands we'll still get one shot at whipping right before Republic, but the only thing we could whip would be the harbour we're building right now, as without it we'd be stuck at size 2 for lack of food for a long time. Well, if we're going to whip the harbour anyway, let's at least get a troop out of Nara first! A spearman or a catapult is a possibility.
Edo: Edo has whip-memory from whipping a harbour. Right now it's working on a spear, but not growing. It's low corruption, I'd let it grow up to 6 for extra income before starting on military.
Tokyo: The same distance from Kyoto as Leipzig. With a courthouse, should be useful until the end of the game. Has whip memory from whipping a granary, however, so the only way we can afford to whip the courthouse now is if we plan to keep building workers/settlers from it for a good long while to keep the population down to where our luxuries can handle it. Otherwise I guess we need to mine some hills to try and get enough shields together to build the courthouse directly a bit faster; an extra shield/turn would make a lot of difference right now.
Osaka: Should be alternating workers and military. The worker south of Osaka in the forst should have been set to clear the forest first, that would have (a) saved us time building the road, and (b) given us more food at Osaka so we could grow faster! Osaka's not on the coast, so it can't get together enough food to grow past 6, but it can still act as a good worker farm. Once we get Electricity, this place will start rocking, but until then it's a support town (albeit a good one.)
Kyoto: Ok, forget Kyoto as a worker or horsie farm, I agree with Arathorn, it's too valuable as a big city, especially if we nix Berlin as a possible big city. Forget the horseman, we want a harbour, a cathedral, and a marketplace. We also need to get a couple workers here to finish improving the lands around Kyoto (and Osaka and Tokyo) but I'm not sure where we'd dredge them up from -- Osaka after its current project seems the likliest bet.
Satsuma: Heh, our cultural borders are already linked across the water, we don't have the harbour complete yet (just whipped last turn) so let's check and see if we have resources/lux... nope. We definately need that harbour then. After that is what? Troops? Temple? Satsuma is as well-positioned as Tokyo or Leipzig to eventually become a big city, although since it has to share with Ngome and Hlobane it might suffer a bit for shields. It needs some workers to improve its surroundings but I don't see that happening for a while yet. Probably for now troops are the order of the day, though it will build them pretty slowly as I don't see it getting above at most 2 shields any time soon. Our swords and archers could use some target practice -- I vote we send them out on pillaging missions or to try to take Ngome or Hlobane. The latter is more easily defensible but is further away from possible support. It also has 2 pop so won't get autorazed, where Ngome will. Ngome has the Zulus' only horse other than the one at Swazi, however, though pillaging it might be easier than attacking the city. The only thing we want to be careful of is to not get too aggressive with them -- if they look to be in danger, withdraw.
Kagoshima: In the same boat as Berlin, likely to be pretty hopelessly corrupted -- the difference being it might eventually benefit from an FP. We can't build up enough shields to whip a granary in a reasonable amount of time, and whipping a temple now when we're 10 turns away from being able to buy one seems silly. We could whip a harbour now and build a warrior or walls, then buy the temple; alternatively, we could whip a harbour and buy a temple for a somewhat reduced cost. Also if we whip the harbour we get the bonus of being able to rush swords/horsies if necessary later.
Military: Our swords and archers could use some target practice -- I vote we send them out on pillaging missions or to try to take Ngome or Hlobane. The latter is more easily defensible but is further away from possible support from Satsuma. It also has 2 pop so won't get autorazed, where Ngome will. Ngome has the Zulus' only horse other than the one at Swazi, however, though pillaging it might be easier than attacking the city. The only thing we want to be careful of is to not get too aggressive with them -- if they look to be in danger, withdraw. The other thing to make note of is that we wanted to try to make peace with the Zulus in about 8 turns, so if we can put together an offensive and capture/raze Ngome right beforehand, we might be able to get Hlobane at the negotiating table. I don't think Shaka would give up Ngome since it's a resource city, but Hlobane's a possibility -- Arathorn, care to comment on what we could get in tribute?
Dplomacy: The Zulu are about to contact the Russians, but they won't be able to do anything with it other than sell the Russians tech since they're at war with everyone else! We should soak the Persians and Aztecs for everything they can pay for contact, preferably selling to the Persians first if they can afford it since we don't want to weaken the Aztecs too much against the Zulu. We should lastly soak the Russians for contact with the Zulu, to try and keep them from being able to afford anything the Zulu might want to sell them. We want it to be us selling stuff to Russia, not the Zulu!
EDIT: We should also be selling world maps to Persia & Aztecs, since the Russians just gave us info on thier lands.
Berlin: We're down to 2 shields of 9 here, but we don't have any whip memory; whip that courthouse in 3 turns when we get down to 39 shields remaining. After that, not sure. Is it more valuable building support troops and workers/settlers to improve/found other cities with less corruption, or do we want to try to grow it to 12 despite its corruption levels? Probably the former, though the good terrain it's on makes it tempting to try for the latter. I just think that it's doomed to become a tragic city as we expand further into Zululand and our city count increases, so we probably don't need to invest in too much city infrastructure. The courthouse and granary were worth it, and a barracks would be nice too, but let's turn it into a support city from now on; additional infrastructure here won't pay off in the long run.
Leipzig: Similar story to Berlin, though less developed. In fact it's probably less corrupt than Berlin so might be worth more of an investment, eventually. An alternative to building the spearman is to swap to granary and whip it in a few turns, then restart the spear. Otherwise, finish the spear, whip a harbour and swap it to granary, getting a good start on the latter before we hit Republic. The workers around Berlin should really be moved up here since their efforts might eventually mean something that way -- don't interrupt projects that are already underway, however.
Konigsberg: Finish the temple and whip a harbour, otherwise it'll never grow.
Frankfurt: It'll only have 1 shield for a LONG time, and is about as corrupt as Berlin so it's not worth spending money on, so anything moderately expensive we really want, we'd better try to whip now. We could whip a granary easily enough but we don't need one, since we can't build workers any faster than we can grow even without one. We do need culture to expand our borders, however. Here's another loopy idea, swap to Granary, whip it, and swap to Library??? After it's done we could build a temple in a reasonable amount of time. Let it finish the temple and whip a horsie just before Republic? Or, just build the temple and let it grow normally?
Nara: Bleh, just got founded, can't whip anything yet. We should probably have founded it one square to the east (still a canal city) so it could at least get some food going! As it stands we'll still get one shot at whipping right before Republic, but the only thing we could whip would be the harbour we're building right now, as without it we'd be stuck at size 2 for lack of food for a long time. Well, if we're going to whip the harbour anyway, let's at least get a troop out of Nara first! A spearman or a catapult is a possibility.
Edo: Edo has whip-memory from whipping a harbour. Right now it's working on a spear, but not growing. It's low corruption, I'd let it grow up to 6 for extra income before starting on military.
Tokyo: The same distance from Kyoto as Leipzig. With a courthouse, should be useful until the end of the game. Has whip memory from whipping a granary, however, so the only way we can afford to whip the courthouse now is if we plan to keep building workers/settlers from it for a good long while to keep the population down to where our luxuries can handle it. Otherwise I guess we need to mine some hills to try and get enough shields together to build the courthouse directly a bit faster; an extra shield/turn would make a lot of difference right now.
Osaka: Should be alternating workers and military. The worker south of Osaka in the forst should have been set to clear the forest first, that would have (a) saved us time building the road, and (b) given us more food at Osaka so we could grow faster! Osaka's not on the coast, so it can't get together enough food to grow past 6, but it can still act as a good worker farm. Once we get Electricity, this place will start rocking, but until then it's a support town (albeit a good one.)
Kyoto: Ok, forget Kyoto as a worker or horsie farm, I agree with Arathorn, it's too valuable as a big city, especially if we nix Berlin as a possible big city. Forget the horseman, we want a harbour, a cathedral, and a marketplace. We also need to get a couple workers here to finish improving the lands around Kyoto (and Osaka and Tokyo) but I'm not sure where we'd dredge them up from -- Osaka after its current project seems the likliest bet.
Satsuma: Heh, our cultural borders are already linked across the water, we don't have the harbour complete yet (just whipped last turn) so let's check and see if we have resources/lux... nope. We definately need that harbour then. After that is what? Troops? Temple? Satsuma is as well-positioned as Tokyo or Leipzig to eventually become a big city, although since it has to share with Ngome and Hlobane it might suffer a bit for shields. It needs some workers to improve its surroundings but I don't see that happening for a while yet. Probably for now troops are the order of the day, though it will build them pretty slowly as I don't see it getting above at most 2 shields any time soon. Our swords and archers could use some target practice -- I vote we send them out on pillaging missions or to try to take Ngome or Hlobane. The latter is more easily defensible but is further away from possible support. It also has 2 pop so won't get autorazed, where Ngome will. Ngome has the Zulus' only horse other than the one at Swazi, however, though pillaging it might be easier than attacking the city. The only thing we want to be careful of is to not get too aggressive with them -- if they look to be in danger, withdraw.
Kagoshima: In the same boat as Berlin, likely to be pretty hopelessly corrupted -- the difference being it might eventually benefit from an FP. We can't build up enough shields to whip a granary in a reasonable amount of time, and whipping a temple now when we're 10 turns away from being able to buy one seems silly. We could whip a harbour now and build a warrior or walls, then buy the temple; alternatively, we could whip a harbour and buy a temple for a somewhat reduced cost. Also if we whip the harbour we get the bonus of being able to rush swords/horsies if necessary later.
Military: Our swords and archers could use some target practice -- I vote we send them out on pillaging missions or to try to take Ngome or Hlobane. The latter is more easily defensible but is further away from possible support from Satsuma. It also has 2 pop so won't get autorazed, where Ngome will. Ngome has the Zulus' only horse other than the one at Swazi, however, though pillaging it might be easier than attacking the city. The only thing we want to be careful of is to not get too aggressive with them -- if they look to be in danger, withdraw. The other thing to make note of is that we wanted to try to make peace with the Zulus in about 8 turns, so if we can put together an offensive and capture/raze Ngome right beforehand, we might be able to get Hlobane at the negotiating table. I don't think Shaka would give up Ngome since it's a resource city, but Hlobane's a possibility -- Arathorn, care to comment on what we could get in tribute?
Dplomacy: The Zulu are about to contact the Russians, but they won't be able to do anything with it other than sell the Russians tech since they're at war with everyone else!
We should soak the Persians and Aztecs for everything they can pay for contact, preferably selling to the Persians first if they can afford it since we don't want to weaken the Aztecs too much against the Zulu. We should lastly soak the Russians for contact with the Zulu, to try and keep them from being able to afford anything the Zulu might want to sell them. We want it to be us selling stuff to Russia, not the Zulu!EDIT: We should also be selling world maps to Persia & Aztecs, since the Russians just gave us info on thier lands.
Tribute city? Pretty doubtful unless we make some more serious inroads against the Zulu. Without capturing/razing at least three cities (seems to be the magic number, not sure why), the AI is very rarely willing to give up cities for peace. Of course, being at war with *3* enemies might make a bit of difference. Still, I see a city as tribute as unlikely -- the non-Swazi city on that island MIGHT have worked, had it not been razed. As it is...I recommend we try when we ask for peace but I don't expect anything -- yet, at least.
Agreed on the rest of the commentary, Zed-F. Remember, too, though, that Republic will help corruption compared with Despotism so Berlin/Leipzig, etc. will get probably a one-shield boost just from the govt. change.
Good luck, Grey Fox!
Not much time to comment. Between things on the "honey-do" list!
Arathorn
Agreed on the rest of the commentary, Zed-F. Remember, too, though, that Republic will help corruption compared with Despotism so Berlin/Leipzig, etc. will get probably a one-shield boost just from the govt. change.
Good luck, Grey Fox!
Not much time to comment. Between things on the "honey-do" list!
Arathorn
