rbd23 - c

[Snaproll]

Here's the Summary. I hope I did what you guys were expecting. I'm still feeling a bit out of my league, but I'm here to learn!

Pre-Turn - Well I decided for the Colossus and settler approach. I think it's important to get those beach heads, and I didn't really see the Lighthouse as being all that important on this map, and I thought getting settlers over there before the bad guys culturally expand was good form. Kyoto switched to Colossus, Osaka switched to Settler. I also consider changing Berlin to courthouse instead of granary first, but it won't finish my turn anyway, so I will let someone else figure that one out

Turn 1 530 BC - In a heart-stopper, a barbarian galley appears from the mists and attacks our galley!! Fortunately, we defend ok. That would have been a twist huh! The Colossus finished, and we jump from +13 to +19 gold per turn. Production set to settler, and since we are making 10 shields/turn, it will finish in exactly 3 turns. Also, the last German city's borders expand, so I move our troops into position to take it.

Turn 2 - 510 BC - Our Galley unloads the spearman south of that Zulu city, and returns to the mainland to ferry settlers. 2 of our elite archers each kill themselves a spearman in Konigsberg, but alas, no leader emerges. We capture another German worker, and wipe the last remnants of their puny civilization from the map.

Turn 3 - 490 BC - I check on Kyoto, and I notice it now has two unhappy people and only one happy person. I don't understand this! Can you guys explain what's going on? It used to have 2 each happy, content, and unhappy at size 6. I haven't changed anything, and it's at 1, 3, and 2 now. What happened? It didn’t grow, no troops left, luxury tax was zero the whole time. I'm confused. In any case, I can't afford to make an entertainer because it will push the settler back a turn (10 shields left), so I up the luxury tax for this turn, and this turn only.

Turn 4 - 470 BC - Settler finished in Kyoto, and immediately loaded onto the galley. We don't have a handy defender to go with him now. The road between Osaka and Kyoto finished, and our worker gang is moving south to connect the rest of our empire. I reset the luxury tax back to zero. I decided initially to change Kyoto's production to a spearman to defend our colony, but since the others are polite I decide to keep it at granary for now.

Turn 5 - 450 BC - Osaka completes its settler, and I make it build a spearman for defense. In addition, Osaka had 2 defenders fortified there, so it relinquishes one to go off with the settler. A barbarian encampment near Konigsberg is dispersed. Our spearman scout on the southern island spots a Zulu Impi and settler about to cut off the land bridge.

Turn 6 - 430 BC - Settler #2 and it's associated spearman loaded into the galley. Our spearman sights a goody hut in the south!!!

Turn 7 - 410 BC - Our beachhead in the Zulu territory founded - Satsuma!! It has no defender right now, but I plan on moving the spearman being built in Osaka there ASAP.

Turn 8 - 390 BC - Our spearman pops the goody hut on the southern island, and we get..... another warrior. Oh well. The Zulu's have definitely blocked that possible land bridge to the Persians...

Turn 9 - 370 BC - Our latest Settler and spearman unloaded in the Aztec area.

Turn 10 - 350 BC - Frankfurt finishes its harbor, and Osaka finishes a spearman. Our second beachhead of Kagoshima founded in the Aztec territory.

Summary: I hope that's what you guys were thinking of!!

 

[Snaproll]

The Game:

 

[Zed-F]

Close enough, Charlie. Good job again on the micro, spotting the incipient anarchy in Kyoto. Probably it had something to do with the war ending. We might have had a temporary happiness bonus while at war with a civ we hated; the math works out that with no lux tax and only 1 MP in a size 6 city with 1 lux resource and a temple, we should have 1 unhappy citizen (on Monarch.)

You did have a couple minor differences from "the plan", but nothing serious. We were originally planning to found in Azteca first but with only a 3 turn difference it hardly matters. Also, you could for instance have stripped Kyoto of its spearman to get a defender for Satsuma; nobody's likely to send an assault force to Japan anytime soon since even if we did go to war they now have targets on their own continent. We should have several archers coming back from former Germany to get shuttled over soon as well (leaving behind any we need to to keep watch over our lands and ensure no new barb camps appear.) No biggie, I'm sure Arathorn can rearrange troops to suit his liking on his turn.

Berlin should definately build Granary first, as we're still food-limited. Courthouse is very important, and should be the next city improvement we buld there, but not so much as a Granary. At least Satsuma has a cattle available!

 

[Snaproll]

You did have a couple minor differences from "the plan", but nothing serious.

Well I had to do SOMETHING different... afterall that's what an SG is about right!! If we all did exactly the same thing it would be no more fun than playing a single player game, right!?

 

[Arathorn]

Once again, looks like a good position to be passed. Will play tonight and post tomorrow. Thank goodness that barbarian galley didn't win or we would've been sunk (pun intended). This die roll was more important than the earlier ones against Germany that didn't go your way.

Priorities/goals?

Granaries/food.
Another ship or two.
Defense in Satsuma.
Get troops shuttled to A/Z island.
Keep fog areas down to zero (sure we want to do this? Or do we want to let 'em pop to farm for elites/gold?)
Explore as much as possible with limited resources.

Other comments:

- Good riddance to Germany. Nicely done all!
- I wish we could buy improvements. Sigh. Oh well. Only ~29 turns to Republic!
- The incipient anarchy in Kyoto had to be the war ending. Weird. I didn't know any kind of "war weariness" affected despotism. Nice catch.
- Embassies? What's our priority on these?

Arathorn

 

[Zed-F]

Well, we could farm for barb camps, if we kept sufficient forces in the area to squish them once they formed. It's mostly hills & mountains there, not ideal for archers to be attacking in, and most of our archers are already elite anyway. In order to get full benefit, we'd probably need a sword or two to upgrade and for better attack power. My impression was the priority was to get troops to A/Z land and to build infrastructure, not military. Hence, leaving one troop behind on lookout is the minimum. Also, since we're pulling in close to 20 per turn (and climbing as our empire/cities expand) the 25 gp from a barb camp is going to start becoming a drop in the bucket soon. But, it's your call -- do you want our troops farming for barbs, or defending our beachheads?

On rushing stuff, the timing is just not going to work out for Satsuma & Kagoshima to rush temples; we'll discover Republic just in time for them to be done, and we certainly don't want to whip for less than 30 shields. Here's a thought: if we're going to get Republic at about the time we could complete the temples anyway, we could build something else we CAN whip to completion before we switch to republic, like Granaries (Libraries being too expensive) and BUY temples as soon as we swap to Republic. We could then build some workers over there rather than having to import some, which would let them improve their own lands enough to actually become useful for something besides being a beachhead and culture-flip magnet. It would encourage trade with the A-Z as well, since they won't need to build a harbour to trade with us once we get our own harbours in Satsuma & possibly Kagoshima -- perhaps a ways off, since that would come after the Temples, but that will probably be before the A-Z get around to building any harbours...

As for embassies, I'd say they're good if they're not too expensive. They help keep up good relations and enable other deals to help keep up good relations, like ROPs. I'm not sure who'd have to pay for an ROP, probably us right now, but if one of them will pay us for one it's free money, and we get the diplo bonus anyway. The only caveat I would have is to make sure we save enough to rush some temples at Satsuma & Kagoshima, should be just under 120 gold apiece (assumes we whip Granaries there.)

 

[Snaproll]

oops double post - I can't delete it though??

 

[Snaproll]

To answer a few of the presented questions:

I did pull back most of our Archers from the former German front to head towards the new lands. I lost one in the attack (amazingly, I forgot to mention that, sorry). I sent a spearman and an archer to disperse the barb camp in the Northeast, and I left them there to prevent more incursions, but we probably really don't need both of them up there. This was probably a mistake, since as memory serves, the archer is elite. possible , but I think I'm just used to using spearman/archer pairs and didn't think about it too much.

Zed, I didn't want to strip Kyoto of it's defender because of happiness problems! That didn't seem worth it at all! It might not have mattered while Kyoto is size 4, but as I recall it is growing again soon. There is a spearman on it's way to Satsuma, and it should remain undefended for only a few more turns.

Anyway, I'm having a great time with this game, much more than I do with other SG's. I hope this continues a trend, because these games, in addition to being fun, will be extremely instructive once we get to see what the others did!

 

[Arathorn]

Archers/spearmen across. I'll probably leave one defender/town on Japan island. Plus the watchman as I agree farming for 25 gold and/or elites is not worth the time/effort (actually, potential for disaster outweighs any potential gains)

Watch happiness - especially as size reaches 6 (once the "two halves" of the empire are connected, this shouldn't be a problem as we'll then have two luxuries to counteract "too crowded" complaints.

I'm probably NOT going to whip in either of our colonies, as we will want a reasonable population base there, too. If it would've worked to whip temples before changing govts, that's all well and good, but... Of course, this will probably ultimately not be my decision to make. I just doubt I'll whip there during my turn.

OTOH, Berlin might get a good whipping, if I remember correctly. Of course, if it has major whip memory, I won't do it there, either.

I should be able to play tonight, as I said. I think my 10 turns will be JBH&G, which is appropriate given that my second set of turns were all spent assaulting Japan.

And, of course, potential trades, and buying any worker either A or Z happens to have available for sale. And quite possibly a couple embassies.

Not amazing to lose an archer on the attack. In fact, losing one is pretty much what the odds would say if there was one vet spear there -- or two regulars. At least they were (are) cheap to produce.

Arathorn

 

[Zed-F]

Charlie: Well, that was an example pulled from the air. Point being, you could have temporarily deprived one of the towns on our continent of a defender to get one to Satsuma on the first ship, but as I said before, not a big deal since we do have plans to get more over there soon anyhow. We would have to be very unlucky to have Satsuma culture-flip or get attacked because it didn't have any defenders with such a short window of opportunity for it to occur. Definately not , just a minor point. Same deal with leaving an archer/spear pair together, also a minor sub-optimal move, nothing to fuss over. We all make sub-optimal moves from time to time, even Sirian so we don't make a big deal about them. Accusations of are reserved for true bonehead moves or mistakes having potentially devastating consequenses.

Arathorn: I would think that whipping a Granary would speed up the growth curve, rather than slow it down. Let's compare for Satsuma: 1 3 food square, 1 2 food square, rest are 1 food squares. Growth to 2 in 7 turns, growth to 3 at 14 turns, 14 food in stores at 21 turns.

Case 1: Whip granary, buy temple. Size drops to 2, we now get 3 food per turn again, so grow to 3 at 23 turns, grow to 4 at 28 turns, and grow to 5 if we so desire at 38 turns. Workers/pop points cost 10 accumulated food to build.

Case 2: Don't whip granary, build temple. Size remains at 3, we grow to 4 at 24 turns, and grow to 5 if we so desire at 44(!) turns. Workers/pop points cost 20 accumulated food to build.

The numbers don't work out quite as much in favour of whipping at Kagoshima, but it can reach size 5 in 40 turns whether we whip or not, and if we whip we still get the advantage of then being able to pump out workers or settlers from that point onwards much more readily. (In fact, if we're careful with how we micro our food stores so as to NOT grow to 3 in Kagoshima before we complete the granary, we could even shave a couple turns off the time to get to size 5, giving the whip a further small advantage.)

Frankly, I don't see how we can NOT whip granaries at Satsuma and Kagoshima. Those cities have some of the best lands in our empire, as far as food production goes; only Kyoto, Osaka, and Berlin have as good or better. IMO we must exploit that as much as possible given how food-limted we are; we could even (eventually) use them to build workers to send back to our mainland. Alternatively, we may need them to pop out an opportunistic settler at some point to fill a gap left by wars. Either way, as far as how quickly we can build city improvements in our colonies goes, the granary is practically a freebie, given that it aids growth more than the whip costs, that the happiness penalty isn't likely to be a big problem since we only have time to whip once before Republic, and that the temple can still be rush-bought immediately after the granary is rush-whipped. I don't really think we should say no to a freebie 60-shield city improvement in those cities, do you?

Ok, there is a cost, and that's that we have to pay 116 gold apeice for 2 temples, rather than building them directly. For 2 granaries that would otherwise take a minimum of 30 turns to build, and probably more, that's a bargain-basement price.

EDIT: Whipping Berlin... don't know how much whip-memory it has, but it probably has some. I might not whip anyway, it's got 3 shields going after corruption at size 4, which is enough to be useful. Also, there's really no good whipping prebuild candidates (i.e. whip something for ~39 shields and then switch to what you really want) since it can't build a harbour and it will be done a granary soon; if it wanted to whip up a courthouse it would have to build the first 41 shields up directly, so we may not have time to whip it before we hit Republic. Besides which, after the granary, I'm pretty sure we want a settler or some workers out of there before we start on that courthouse. It *might* be possible to pull one last whip on it right before the deadline... we'll have to wait and see. Our other option is to switch to courthouse and whip now (or soon) but if we do have any current weariness, that will just prolong the agony, and the granary is probably more important anyway. It might be better to wait until we're sure any German whipping is erased from memory before we do any of our own.

 

[Arathorn]

In 350 BC, Arathorn, a nearly-unknown assistant editor at JBH&G, came to the post of complete power over the Japanese nation. The exact cause of this is unknown, but it has something to do with a rubber band, women's underwear, the word "penultimate", and the color orange.

His first decision is what to build in Osaka. A settler, to complete the control of the Japanese island, is his eventual decision. Shaka is so enamored with the prospect of having a dumb editor in charge of the nation that he establishes an embassy in Kyoto.

Reacting with cat-like speed, Arathorn establishes an embassy with the Aztecs a mere 20 years later (330 BC)! Their capital is working on the Oracle and will finish in 24 turns -- about 10 less if they got a brain.

The previous leader managed Kyoto well, zero shields will be wasted on the granary there.

Arathorn purchases construction from the Aztecs for his world map and 118 gold. A RoP is established with Montezuma, as he is willing to pay 9 gold for the privilege, and it has to help us more than it helps him. Shaka is unwilling to do a RoP and would've charged much more for the tech. The military advisor, now dressed in impeccable lilac and chartreuse, tries to warn Arathorn of the danger of an AI being unwilling to do a RoP, but he is dismissed to repaint the palace walls a slightly different color of eggshell.

After finishing its granary, Kyoto begins an aqueduct. Arathorn sees an opportunity to wallow in his indolence. An aqueduct costs 100 shields. Kyoto can produce 7 shields and grow quickly or 9 shields and grow slowly (or 10 shields and not grow at all, but that's a bad option at this point). 4*7 + 8*9 = 100, he figures, so 4 turns of high food and then switch over to high shields! He pats himself on the back and rests for 40 years. (Order is important, always run high food first, as earlier growth can always support itself.)

In 290 BC, Satsuma gets its second wave of reinforcements, two archers unload on the "docks" of the small city. The more difficult decisions are on the home-front. Berlin finishes its granary and forgets its last whipping the same turn. A courthouse is ordered, with the "+2 dart of decision" just barely missing the "settler" category -- something for the next leader/consensus to consider. If WWW (Whip, wait, whip) were available, I'd've done it. With no harbor/cheap library available, it's not possible. (Didn't see Zed's notes before beginning, but it wouldn't have mattered, as Berlin only needed ~9 shields to finish anyway.) Tokyo, too, finishes its current project, a harbor. Once again, the dart indicates a courthouse, this time barely in favor over a galley. Again, something to not be assumed "correct" and quite possibly deserving a veto stamp.

The only news in 270 BC is that the Russian city of Moscow completes the Pyramids.

In 250 BC, Osaka finishes training a band of intrepid individuals to settle in the desert and begins training a new set of warriors, ostensibly as swordsmen but as horsemen-with-no-horses-yet in actuality. The Zulus turn their big pile of rocks in the direction of a library -- a "great" library.

230 BC marked the turning point of Arathorn's career. The lone galley was sent south and west to pick up the spearmen/warrior on the small Zulu island to ferry them to the main island (no land bridge at all there!). Three Zulu archers "go on maneveurs" near Satsuma near the end of the year. Tensions mount islands-wide. The world yawns.

In 210 BC, Arathorn, under intense internal pressure, sends a terse memo to Shaka, politely asking that he withdraw from Japanese soil. Shaka agrees, but the lack of a demand means the archers do not move. The galley captain, overriding his orders at the peril of his own stomach, turns around and moves back into Edo. It's obvious he's coming for us. At least Satsuma has three troops in it to deal with the mess -- with more on the way.

Later that year, Shaka sends one lone archer regiment charging up the hill to attack Satsuma. It is repelled with no losses. Another moves to take its place.

The first order of business in 190 BC is a long talk with Montezuma, the erstwhile leader of the Aztecs. For the "low low" cost of our world map and 124 gold, he agrees to ally with us against the Zulu menace. For another 70 gold (sorry, treasury), he introduces us to a hostile man named Xerxes, owner of an island to the west of A/Z and nearly as large. Xerxes agrees to purchase Construction from us, paying his world map and his entire puny treasury of 3 gold. The map is interesting, however, and Arathorn realizes that Shaka or Montezuma would have soon sold to Xerxes anyway.

And, then, Arathorn the assistant editor has to order his first military action. An elite archer attacks a regular archer camped on Satsuma's cattle supply. The first damage is to our elite, the second to the Zulu archer. The Zulu archer then defies all odds and rallies for three consecutive blows, nearly killing the Japanese archer. Rallying incredibly, the Japanese archer deals two blows, killing the Zulu archer, and... HELLO? What's this?

[dance]

 

[Arathorn]

[Interlude]

OK, great! A leader! Now ... WTH do I do with him? I considered just pausing and polling the whole crew, but then I realized I wouldn't have time to finish my turns tonight (Friday) and I didn't want to delay everybody/pass without playing my full turn.

Lotsa options:

Lighthouse?
Pros:
Been discussed as a positive.
Satsuma is coastal.
Not fatal if lost.
Cons:
Still miles of unexplored coast, let alone sea.
"Only" 200 shields to build.
Edo/Satsuma link exactly three move so increased move unnecessary.
One ship = total fleet.
Ship needed for troop movement now.
Some few shields already invested in a temple in Satsuma.

Army?
Pros:
Heroic Epic.
Keep those archers alive.
Cons:
An archer army?
Elite archers would demote to veteran if loaded in the army.
Barely enough troops on shore to load.
Number of attacks may be more important than strength of attacks.
Can get to Persia/past Persia still on coast.

Great Library?
Pros:
Safety of not purchasing techs.
High culture for flips.
400 shield wonder.
Screw the Zulus who are building it.
Cons:
Also wastes some Satsuma shields.
Not one we want to lose -- better in a secure location.

Wait/ship him home?
Pros:
I won't get blamed for a bad decision.
Safer at home.
Cons:
Lose chance for more GLs (another elite attack coming this turn).
A full army too big for a galley.
No more pressing need at home than abroad, really.

Forbidden Palace:
Pros:
On the other island.
Cons:
WAY too close to capital.
Not centrally located to anything but water.
Would be razed if we lost Satsuma.

I eventually decided on the Great Library, with the culture being the deciding factor.

This decision alone took about as much time as the rest of the turns combined. I was sweating bullets over it. Hope everybody approves!

 

[Arathorn]

Tojo does his thing, rushing the Great Library. Another elite archer attacks a regular on the grassland. And follows nearly an identical pattern to the first, winning with one hp left. But no leader this time. On an impulse, our spear near Swazi attacks and kills an impi, surviving with one hp left. Another impi still guards the city.

The Zulu counter-attack removes one elite archer from our payroll. They also switch over to the the Oracle, racing the Aztecs.

In 170 BC, the peaceful notion of founding a city tops Arathorn's agenda. Nara is founded between Berlin and Edo, nearly culture-locking that part of our island. (One or two more cities in the NE and a little culture growth will do it) The fog-busting, anti-barbarian warrior in the area is sent north, with the intention of training him in the use of swords. Other homeland defenders are mobilized for "the war across the water". This leaves Japan a bit under-staffed, but it is considered necessary, if decidedly dicey.

On A/Z island, our last full-strength archer, a veteran of the battles with Germany, attacks the last Zulu archer visible, winning a great victory. Other troop shuffle continues.

"Where are our Aztec allies?" cry the people. Arathorn is unable to answer the question. We've seen no real sign of A vs. Z conflict. It is possible, even likely, they are fighting outside our range of visibility. Still, their lack of action lulls Arathorn into a bit of a rest (that and our smaller treasury). The Zulus get to Xerxes first, signing an alliance against our noble land. Fortunately, the Persian people have a LENGTHY sea voyage (20 turns probably) before they can reach our lands.

The Great Library gives us its first fruits -- Polytheism. That's ~130 gold saved and not given to our eventual enemies.

In his last acts in office, in 150 BC, Arathorn returns all troops to Satsuma, trying to HEAL.

The barracks under construction there will hopefully aid in that quest. The Great Library has already caused some nearby areas (squares) to pledge their support to the great Japanese nation, hopefully Ngome will soon follow suit, although I'm not holding my breath.

Swazi was size two and is size one again. I'm guessing Shaka whipped another Impi there, so that's probably two defenders -- an awfully tall order for a conscript warrior and a veteran spear.

Definitely interesting times!
Arathorn

 

[Arathorn]

Suggestions for next leader:

Change Kagoshima to a spear. There's a Zulu ship making its way north and I imagine that's where it's headed. That will finish faster than the temple. Switch back to the temple and whip it.

Let Kyoto finish its aqueduct before doing anything else.

After Shatsuma finishes barracks, whip a harbor. Maybe even switch to walls and then whip a harbor, but I like barracks better.

PROTECT our lone ship. Move it from Edo to Satsuma completely -- use load and unload for faster results. This means it won't be sunk. We really NEED that ship. Never leave it in the open.

Don't get aggressive vs. Shaka on his soil. Just do an active defense of Satsuma (meaning attack unprotected archers if they're near, but don't go out looking for trouble). We're still way short of troops on that side of the ocean.

Upgrade some warriors to swords in Kyoto and ship 'em across the sea.

Don't worry too much about Persia. But count squares and see exactly how long it will take him to sail over to pester us (I should've done this, but I knew with 100% certainty it wasn't a problem on my set of turns, so I got lazy).

======

Issues for discussion:

What to build in Tokyo/Berlin? I started things but I can see good arguments for changing both courthouses to something else.

Exact orders for Satsuma/Kagoshima?

Duration of war? I'd say 20 turns to let our alliance run its course and then stop it, unless we really think we can start advancing militarily against them at that point.

What to build in Kyoto after Aqueduct finishes? And how to distribute shields. Here's the thing. It can grow pretty much indefinitely if at 9 shields -- albeit semi-slowly (govt. change would help that). OTOH, it can crank 10 shields with no growth. And 10 shields is optimal for most everything.
One possibility is to do VERY high food (assuming it has a harbor, it can get TWO food from the sea instead of one from the silk forest) for 3 turns to get 21 shields and then 9 shields once to get 30 shields for a horseman. This lets Kyoto grow (growth there is extra nice because of the Colussus).
Another possibility is to go 10 shields, no growth, using the mined desert instead of the roaded grass and build things in 3 turns, but this eliminates all growth, which is rather unfortunate, as each pop is at least 2 gold/turn under despotism and 3 or 4 under republic. Of course, happiness could get difficult, too, so maybe growth isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Third possibility is to go half-@$$ed and spend 9 shields/turn and waste a lot of potential.
Fourth possibility is to go infrastructure mode there and build buildings with combinations of 7 and 9 shields.

I have small preference for option one, but it'd probably be pretty easy to convince me otherwise.

How much to spend on research? I changed the 10% to zero percent and ran a scientist in the last German city until he got happy (second luxury online and temple), then switched back to 10% to keep Republic going. After that? In one sense, we want Chivalry ASAP as that's our best blitz opportunity. On the other, we have the GL and money/money/money makes the world go round. Once we get Republic, we can use the cash to rush troops/improvements/etc. Currency is, I believe, the only required Ancient tech still undiscovered. Persia will surely catch up by then and catapult everybody into the Middle Ages with Monotheism. 'Tis an issue to begin considering. (The more research we want to do, the more we should consider building libraries.)

My weak recommendation in this area is to keep science at zero once we have Republic -- at least until Education and quite possibly longer (buying techs we need). Of course, this can change if nobody researches chivalry, as we really want that.

Arathorn

 

[Lovro]

I've always struggled with leaders, I've never seen this much luck!

Anyway, I would have definitely made the same call as you, Arathorn. We can (and will) definitely use the techs plus the extra culture in the area.

 

[Grey Fox]

My suggestion is that we stay low on research BUT try to get to Chivalry as fast as possible.
And then rush as many Samurai's as possible and then win by Conquest early in the Middle Ages. And to do that I don't want us to keep to many cities, it would be just raze - raze - raze.
We'll need many galley's too, as this is an Island map.
One way to go is to build Horsemen, and then upgrade em to Samurai's. That would cost 80 Gold each.
Another way would be to rush the Samurai's with gold, the cost for a samurai is 280, I think.
One more way to go is to change to Despotism when we have chivalry, and whip some samurai's. That would require 2 Citizens each.
And we could always just build the Samurai's (and rushing some half-finished).

If we save money we could get a fair amount of Samurai's by upgrading horsemen, we have a Barracks in Satsuma right?

When we do get Samurai's it would be conquest, conquest conquest... until we have the world, aiming for an as early finish as possible (for the score and the prestige).


BTW, who's turn is it?

 

[Zed-F]

So much for whipping Granaries, at least for now! War definately puts things in a different light.

Making an empty army out of Tojo, we could have shipped it home, waited until we had a couple swords, then shipped the swords and empty army back over, loaded it up, and gone on a rampage! That might have been worth more than the Great Library, since our goal is early conquest; a sword army would be pretty decisive at this point in the game. But, it's water under the bridge now...

Building the Great Library in Satsuma rather than shipping back and building in Kyoto means we get border expansion at Satsuma faster, but it's more vulnerable there. We'll see how that pans out. I definately agree we want a barracks in Satsuma first off. Whipping a harbour next? Possibly, but it can grow to 4 or so without one with no problems... what's the rationale, just because it can be done quickly? I'm not asking why whip (though if corruption's not too bad there it could be a valid question), nor am I suggesting a harbour is the wrong thing to whip, so much as I'm curious as to why whip a harbour in preference to something else, for instance a granary.

Rather than changing Kagoshima to a spear, couldn't we just ship a couple defenders over there? Or maybe build a quick wall before building the temple? The AI usually goes for un-walled cities in preference to walled ones. Whipping a 30-shield temple really doesn't make me happy. Whipping a 60-shield granary that offsets the whip with faster growth is one thing, whipping something for less than 30 shields is inefficient, slows our growth, and doesn't sit well.

20 turns of war should be plenty. We may need to stay in Despotism a bit longer than we expected to prevent war weariness from becoming a factor under Republic. If we switch to Republic while we're at war, I believe the accumulated weariness we would have built up will suddenly come into effect. This may let us whip a couple more times, but most of our cities probably have some whip-weariness already so it may be a moot point.

Courthouses in Tokyo and Berlin are definately a good idea, but I'm not sure about priorities regarding troops now. I would like to keep these going if possible, but we'll see. Berlin definately needs a settler next if it builds a courthouse first, though. As for Kyoto, I guess we're far enough along on aqueduct that it's not worth it to switch away now, but do we really want to allow it to build up pop? Firstly, I don't think it has a harbour yet, so high food is out; secondly, we still need settlers and workers and it's our best food-production city even without a harbour as long as it stays under size 7, so is most capable of building them. We have way too few workers for a civ of our size, even counting the captured ones. The alternative would be to build a harbour next and go for growth as you suggested, but if we do that we're stuck with Berlin and Osaka as the only two cities on our side of the pond capable of reasonable growth rates, and they both have lots of competing priorities right now.

I wonder if Shaka will get the Persians involved against the Aztecs. In that instance we may not have to worry about Xerxes at all. I agree we want to milk the Great Library since we've got it, so no science.

 

[Arathorn]

Lovro's up.

I like the idea of trying to win Middle Ages, if possible. I definitely think we should try to conquer the whole A/Z island with samurai, if at all possible (and it should be).

I think Domination is probably easier/faster than Conquest, though. We'll need cities to rest/heal in. As long as we don't waste cash in tragic cities, they are actually helpful (never a drain on the economy, unless you're stupid enough to go into Communism). Defending them MIGHT be a big of a pain, but the AI will either be attacking our cities or settling new ones, so I'd just as soon make 'em declare war to do it. I definitely think we want a lot of cities -- especially with your point about slipping back into despotism for a turn or two to rush more samurai -- a worthwhile occasional use for tragic cities.

Definitely building horsemen to upgrade to samurai. Samurai are the ultimate tank unit, as they never need defensive support units. Yeah, some filler troops are nice for defending back cities, but that's about it. I started one horsemen my turn and think/hope Osaka and Kyoto will build a fair few (at least 6) more in the next several turns.

We do NOT have a barracks in Satsuma -- yet. It's only been a city for ~15 turns and all those shields got wasted to build the GL. It is building a barracks now and will finish during Lovro's turn unless we lose the city or he changes the build order.

One boat constantly going back and forth between Edo and Satsuma can probably keep up with all the troops Japan can produce. Another should probably be built to go search for Russia, but I'm not sure how high priority that is.

Question: Can we win by covering A/Z island, the Z island, and the Persia island with culture? Would that get us enough squares? I really don't know, but it might well be enough. I see opponents as Zulu, Aztec, Persia in that order but maybe switching P and A, depending on GLs for FP and how obnoxious Xerxes is.

4 sam would probably be enough for Z island (with Swazi and some other city) and they could then be reassigned.

Something we might want to consider at some point is using Japan as a horsemen factory by disconnecting the iron there and doing whatever we need to keep iron away from a few cities (not sure how hard that would be -- and it's very counter-intuitive) and then upgrade them over on A/Z island. That would probably be easiest by not building a harbor in Satsuma and capturing iron over there (presumably from the source near Zimbabwe). This might be more feasible with our last war on that island (presumably A), in which case we would need the harbor but then might end up selling it. How tangled is that?

We will need some infrastructure to keep up with all the gold costs of this plan, though. Colussus should help, as will the other cities (coastal) in Japan.

Gonna be at least 20 turns before we're really ready to launch an offensive on A/Z island, though. We're just too thin over there -- and on the home front -- to do much right now.

FP location will be interesting. I'd originally targeted Xochicalco, but it looks like Zimbabwe (or whatever city is directly NW of there) might be better. Might be GL dependent, too, a bit.

For now, though, that's a ways (at least 4 techs -- Currency, Monotheism, Feudalism, and Chivalry) away. Right now, I want to make sure we don't lose Satsuma nor fall behind in other critical areas.

Goal for 30 turns from now: - 15 samurai. I'm expecting Currency and Monotheism out of the GL in ~5 turns, then Feudalism in another 10 or so and then WE research chivalry full-bore (~10 turns). We'll need a LARGE cash reserve (1200 just for upgrades! plus losing some pt for science, in all likelihood) to do upgrades/builds in 5 turns. That means, we'll need 15 horse in the next 25 turns, which ain't easy either. This is just a suggestion!!!!

Arathorn

 

[Arathorn]

(Zed posted while I was responding to Grey's ideas -- now replying to Zed)


On Kagoshima:

Would waste shields if switched to a wall now (about 12 built up as I recall)
But spear build might be too late.
Whipping a temple means you get the happiness to couteract the whip ASAP. More importantly, we get the culture there. Kagoshima is being SQUEEZED bigtime by Aztec culture and is a definite flip concern. Doing a spear then whipping a temple actually gets culture faster than waiting for the temple to complete. Culture might save the city.
Why not ship across troops to defend it? Well, it would put our little galley out on the open waters for about four turns getting there and at least two back. That's a lot of time for a lucky barb/Zulu ship to sink it. In which case, we are SOL because it's our ONLY way of getting troops to Satsuma. Plus, we're not exactly brimming with troops on Japan to send across!
Why whip a temple? Well, we would get 29 shields out of a whip -- 10 less than optimal but still pretty respectable (by building the spear first, that is). Utility NOW outweighing the long-term benefits?


On Tojo:

Sword army would've been very nice (only 9 hp (maybe 10) though as our warriors are regular). I felt it a bit risky. Might've been better. As you said, though, water under the bridge.


On whipping a harbor in Satsuma:

A few reasons. One is it's a perfect whip (40 shields). Granary would require building up 21 shields first. Might be worth it, though.

Importantly, though, it would connect Satsuma to the rest of our empire, giving it access to iron, horses, luxuries, etc. Without which, I am worried about the city. As far as happiness goes, it more than makes up for itself by providing the additional luxuries.

Partly, too, I think it will be one of our "last whip" items before going to Republic.

Granary would be better, except for the connectivity and timing issues. Make those go away (and they might with culture growth across the water and govt. timing) and I'd probably agree with the granary, if the shields time right.

Might be best to not whip, too. Current corruption there is losing one of three shields, I believe -- not too bad, really.



On growth:

Each citizen of Kyoto gets the Colussus bonus, so I wanted to build the aqueduct. If I'd've known Shaka was coming for us, I probably wouldn't have started it. We can always turn it into a 10-shield unit-builder, fixed-size 6 for a while before it tries to grow again.

Berlin to settler is very tempting. Would be a tragic city in the NE though. Would probably get a second source of iron, which will be important if our first runs out.

Tokyo with harbor has very good growth rate, now. Shields are questionable, with corruption and an unmined hill as part of the mix, but it can grow.

We can conquer cities and get our population that way! Fewer bigger cities are more linear in growth than lots of smaller ones, which are more exponential. Short-term, you win with bigger cities. Long-term, the spread pays off. If (since?) we're going for FAST, bigger might be better.

How many more workers do we really need? A couple, which can probably be skimmed off of Tokyo/Osaka when needed.


On government:

War weariness does accumulate and hit all at once if you change to a more representative government. OTOH, they declared on us, which makes our people happy. Two, extra arrows often means you can run 10 (or even 20)% luxury tax and still be ahead. If we could make peace with Persia before the change....

When we get very near Republic, we'll need to examine closely. Unit costs hit suddenly in Republic, too, which we'll need to keep in mind. Delicate knowing when to switch. I certainly don't know -- and it may change before we discover Republic.

Arathorn

P.S. I believe Osaka is undefended. The Zulu ship might be headed there, too. A spear after the current horse might be wise.

 

[TheWatcher]

Well guys, you are losing the # of post wars to "B"