TheWatcher
Chieftain
Hey guys, better hurry up 'b' is almost over.
Watching
to see what happens here next.
Watching
to see what happens here next.
rbd23 - c
- Thread starter smegged
- Start date
Well, in that event I guess my previously posted plan for our cities will go ahead pretty much unopposed, seeing as I'm next. 
I'll try not to depopulate Berlin too badly until after we see what corruption improvements we get from Republic. Anyone mind if I take a couple extra turns to get us into Republic before my tenure ends?
EDIT: Other item of controversy was whipping courthouse at Tokyo -- here I think I'll hold off and let mined hills/Republic work to increase shields instead. Conservative approach, but I think we can get enough extra shields that way to make it worth not whipping.
I'll try not to depopulate Berlin too badly until after we see what corruption improvements we get from Republic. Anyone mind if I take a couple extra turns to get us into Republic before my tenure ends?EDIT: Other item of controversy was whipping courthouse at Tokyo -- here I think I'll hold off and let mined hills/Republic work to increase shields instead. Conservative approach, but I think we can get enough extra shields that way to make it worth not whipping.
I would vote for just doing 10 turns, even if it leaves a project unfinished. Normally, I'm not opposed to a little flexibility (comments in LotR1 about the Library notwithstanding), but this game is supposed to be "competetive" and I think one of the things we're judging is how well we work together.
Getting to Republic isn't too major of an event, IMO, so I'd just pass it on after 10 turns, gritting your teeth if necessary.
Grey Fox, sorry you're too busy. Hope you can join us next round. (If not, though, please let us know a bit sooner...).
Have fun with the cities. Don't neglect the Zulu war. With the forces Lovro sent across, it might be close to time for offense -- your call, of course.
Arathorn
Getting to Republic isn't too major of an event, IMO, so I'd just pass it on after 10 turns, gritting your teeth if necessary.
Grey Fox, sorry you're too busy. Hope you can join us next round. (If not, though, please let us know a bit sooner...).
Have fun with the cities. Don't neglect the Zulu war. With the forces Lovro sent across, it might be close to time for offense -- your call, of course.
Arathorn
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Some comments strictly about the turn-length rules:
Neither of the other teams, A or B, has done as well as your team C at observing the stated turn lengths. Team B's anomalies were all in the first round, with confusion over what the rules were, and starting with the second round onward, observed the strict ten per player. Team A not only had some of the same blur in the first round, but being behind in post count and having troubles with delays and turn order, has continued to be "flexible" about turn lengths. And that's the team smegged is playing on, so you can deduce that those were not meant to be unbendable.
It probably is a good idea to stick to the strict turn lengths. Team B managed that once we figured out WHAT we were supposed to be doing with the turn lengths -- *ahem* smegged was a little less than thorough with the rules at times -- but just to let you know... if you did blur the line here or there on turn order or turn length, nobody else would have any right to complain about it, long as the gameplay itself remains up to spec.
Now back to your regularly scheduled Team C debates, and my apologies for intruding. If you want an impartial input, I'm sure Charis would be happy to provide that.
- Sirian
Neither of the other teams, A or B, has done as well as your team C at observing the stated turn lengths. Team B's anomalies were all in the first round, with confusion over what the rules were, and starting with the second round onward, observed the strict ten per player. Team A not only had some of the same blur in the first round, but being behind in post count and having troubles with delays and turn order, has continued to be "flexible" about turn lengths. And that's the team smegged is playing on, so you can deduce that those were not meant to be unbendable.
It probably is a good idea to stick to the strict turn lengths. Team B managed that once we figured out WHAT we were supposed to be doing with the turn lengths -- *ahem* smegged was a little less than thorough with the rules at times -- but just to let you know... if you did blur the line here or there on turn order or turn length, nobody else would have any right to complain about it, long as the gameplay itself remains up to spec.
Now back to your regularly scheduled Team C debates, and my apologies for intruding.
If you want an impartial input, I'm sure Charis would be happy to provide that.- Sirian
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/rbd23c-japan-250ad.zip
Turn summary:
Domestic, Old Japan: Got workers out of Osaka and Edo (the latter by accident, but we needed it anyway) so we now have 3 workers over here. Kyoto is up to 6 good tiles, though we could clear a forest & replace with a mine for faster growth. Osaka, similar story, working on a mine for a forest that was cleared for faster growth. They need to move up to Tokyo and start improving there next, mining/roading some hills. Kyoto finished a harbour, working on Cathedral, next should be a Marketplace. Tokyo still plugging away at a courthouse. Osaka's building a horsie.
Domestic, New Japan: Built courthouse at Berlin, recovered 3 shields, so it should be productive under Republic after all. Berlin and Frankfurt built settlers. Konigsberg built a temple and whipped a harbour; Leipzig whipped a granary; Nara whipped a harbour after building a spearman. Our workers have finished with Berlin for the moment and are working on improving Leipzig. Finally a road is being built to Frankfurt.
Domestic, A-Z colonies: Kagoshima is almost done a worker and should be ready to buy a temple after that. Satsuma built a worker (turns out I didn't need to, more on that later) and is working on some miilitary unit. Note: Satsuma could be a good city someday, so don't neglect infrastructure there once it's no longer a front-line city!
Military: The Zulu boat went all the way around our island to drop an archer off next to Leipzig, which was undefended at the time. I had moved the spearman at Berlin up to cover both cities so he moved into Leipzig and defended admirably from the subsquent archer attack. On A-Z island, we autorazed both Ngome and Hlobane with sword attacks, losing a sword in the process. We also sent a couple horsemen in on a probing attack, and managed to wipe out a sword and 2 archers before withdrawing to heal up. Finally we captured a settler that was going to re-establish Hlobane, and one of our remaining swords promoted to elite in the attack. All in all a good turn for us and a bad one for the Zulu; Zimbabwe has been whipped down to size 1, so the Zulu are very much a paper tiger now... they will have a hard time replacing losses from here on out, so the time is ripe for a larger-scale offensive! If only we had a few more units with which to prosecute an attack; right now it would be ridiculously easy to over-extend ourselves. However, IMO we really needed to concentrate on infrastructure for a bit. Good news is we have 2 settlers right now which can be used to fill the culture gap in the NE corner of our island and/or get shipped over to A-Z island to take advantage of the culture gap between Satsuma and Zimbabwe. One of our settlers has not moved on my last turn, so feel free to send it in whichever direction suits best.
Diplomacy: The Zulu boat never made contact with Russia despite its venture to our eastern shores. Accordingly, contact has not been sold around the world. I bartered our excess lux off to Persia and sold an ROP to Russia (haha). I did not make peace with the Zulu since we were doing so well...
Research: We have Republic but I didn't switch in case we want to whip a temple in Frankfurt. Another option would be to just let Frankfurt build a temple, and swap to Republic immediately. I thought the settler would be more useful for the moment since Frankfurt is a 1/1 city anyway. It won't grow so quickly that a temple can't be built before it starts getting unhappy.
Anyone care to look at the map and provide comments before the next turn begins? Charlie, you're up!
Turn summary:
Domestic, Old Japan: Got workers out of Osaka and Edo (the latter by accident, but we needed it anyway) so we now have 3 workers over here. Kyoto is up to 6 good tiles, though we could clear a forest & replace with a mine for faster growth. Osaka, similar story, working on a mine for a forest that was cleared for faster growth. They need to move up to Tokyo and start improving there next, mining/roading some hills. Kyoto finished a harbour, working on Cathedral, next should be a Marketplace. Tokyo still plugging away at a courthouse. Osaka's building a horsie.
Domestic, New Japan: Built courthouse at Berlin, recovered 3 shields, so it should be productive under Republic after all. Berlin and Frankfurt built settlers. Konigsberg built a temple and whipped a harbour; Leipzig whipped a granary; Nara whipped a harbour after building a spearman. Our workers have finished with Berlin for the moment and are working on improving Leipzig. Finally a road is being built to Frankfurt.
Domestic, A-Z colonies: Kagoshima is almost done a worker and should be ready to buy a temple after that. Satsuma built a worker (turns out I didn't need to, more on that later) and is working on some miilitary unit. Note: Satsuma could be a good city someday, so don't neglect infrastructure there once it's no longer a front-line city!
Military: The Zulu boat went all the way around our island to drop an archer off next to Leipzig, which was undefended at the time. I had moved the spearman at Berlin up to cover both cities so he moved into Leipzig and defended admirably from the subsquent archer attack. On A-Z island, we autorazed both Ngome and Hlobane with sword attacks, losing a sword in the process. We also sent a couple horsemen in on a probing attack, and managed to wipe out a sword and 2 archers before withdrawing to heal up. Finally we captured a settler that was going to re-establish Hlobane, and one of our remaining swords promoted to elite in the attack. All in all a good turn for us and a bad one for the Zulu; Zimbabwe has been whipped down to size 1, so the Zulu are very much a paper tiger now... they will have a hard time replacing losses from here on out, so the time is ripe for a larger-scale offensive! If only we had a few more units with which to prosecute an attack; right now it would be ridiculously easy to over-extend ourselves. However, IMO we really needed to concentrate on infrastructure for a bit.
Good news is we have 2 settlers right now which can be used to fill the culture gap in the NE corner of our island and/or get shipped over to A-Z island to take advantage of the culture gap between Satsuma and Zimbabwe. One of our settlers has not moved on my last turn, so feel free to send it in whichever direction suits best.Diplomacy: The Zulu boat never made contact with Russia despite its venture to our eastern shores. Accordingly, contact has not been sold around the world. I bartered our excess lux off to Persia and sold an ROP to Russia (haha). I did not make peace with the Zulu since we were doing so well...
Research: We have Republic but I didn't switch in case we want to whip a temple in Frankfurt. Another option would be to just let Frankfurt build a temple, and swap to Republic immediately. I thought the settler would be more useful for the moment since Frankfurt is a 1/1 city anyway. It won't grow so quickly that a temple can't be built before it starts getting unhappy.
Anyone care to look at the map and provide comments before the next turn begins? Charlie, you're up!
What do you mean, did you win after 21 Turns? At 2950 BC or did you loose then.Originally posted by lkendter
Is this game really at 50AD????
Our game finsihed at 2950 AD.
I would like to some day see the results of the competion
Or is this some kindof strange map where the ending date is at 2950 AD.
My turn finished late last night so I didn't really think too much about wat's up next for our cities, or our empire.
The Zulu are really about out of gas, a good hard push (from anyone) will probably take them out. We need to ensure that we come out on top in the ensuing land grab. As I mentioned, however, I mainly concentrated on infrastructure during my turn, so we don't have much more military presence in Satsuma & environs than we did at the start of my turn (an extra horse, an extra spear, one less sword) nor do we have much other than a few spears on Japan to send over. We could make peace and hope the AIs don't smell blood, but that seems unlikely. So, it looks like we need to swap some of our towns over to military. Berlin is a good choice since it has a reasonable number of shields and just started an aqueduct. Leipzig also just finished a granary and started a courthouse, and could be a possibility once our workers have gotten a couple mines done. Kyoto could swap back to military for a while after the cathedral, but needs to grow and can't put out 10 shields while growing, plus it would really benefit from a marketplace. Now that we have some workers at Satsuma, it should be able to pump out a reasonable number of shields in the near future; it's already building a spear but we could swap to horses.
We do have a couple settlers we can use to fill holes from autorazing cities. We want to capture when possible, of course. I'm not convinced that the culture hole in our borders on Japan is important relative to grabbing the majority of Zululand.
About Republic: I neglected to consider that we might not want to swap to Republic if we were still at war with the Zulu. This means we might not be able to buy a temple at Kagoshima as I had been planning. On the other hand, they did declare war on us, and we have been mostly winning, so war weariness might not be too bad if we did swap, and so far happiness hasn't been a big problem. I don't recall any techs popping out of the GL on my turn, so I don't think we have Monarchy yet. Our options here are wait for Monarchy, or swap to Republic now/soon and risk the weariness.
More about Kagoshima: It's building a worker, and should have at least one. There is still a Zulu galley about on its way back from Leipzig so we probably don't want to expose it to ship a couple slaves up from Satsuma. I don't think it will be able to get a temple until we swap to Republic or Monarchy and buy it. (If I'd known the war against the Zulu would go so well, I might have whipped the temple after all, though I still think the harbour whip was a good move given what our plans were at the time.)
About research: We are currently researching Feudalism at 10%, which might be a waste of 10% of our cash. We should probably turn off research and wait for the AIs to get it for us. I don't think we're quite ready to go whole-hog on research yet, as we still need to build up cash for horsie upgrades. While we can't predict when we will get Theology (unless we start researching it,) nevertheless at some point we might want to consider prebuilding for the Sistine Chapel.
About Diplomacy: if we do make peace with the Zulu, make sure to cancel our alliance with the Aztecs first. We should be able to without penalty now.
The Zulu are really about out of gas, a good hard push (from anyone) will probably take them out. We need to ensure that we come out on top in the ensuing land grab. As I mentioned, however, I mainly concentrated on infrastructure during my turn, so we don't have much more military presence in Satsuma & environs than we did at the start of my turn (an extra horse, an extra spear, one less sword) nor do we have much other than a few spears on Japan to send over. We could make peace and hope the AIs don't smell blood, but that seems unlikely. So, it looks like we need to swap some of our towns over to military. Berlin is a good choice since it has a reasonable number of shields and just started an aqueduct. Leipzig also just finished a granary and started a courthouse, and could be a possibility once our workers have gotten a couple mines done. Kyoto could swap back to military for a while after the cathedral, but needs to grow and can't put out 10 shields while growing, plus it would really benefit from a marketplace. Now that we have some workers at Satsuma, it should be able to pump out a reasonable number of shields in the near future; it's already building a spear but we could swap to horses.
We do have a couple settlers we can use to fill holes from autorazing cities. We want to capture when possible, of course. I'm not convinced that the culture hole in our borders on Japan is important relative to grabbing the majority of Zululand.
About Republic: I neglected to consider that we might not want to swap to Republic if we were still at war with the Zulu. This means we might not be able to buy a temple at Kagoshima as I had been planning. On the other hand, they did declare war on us, and we have been mostly winning, so war weariness might not be too bad if we did swap, and so far happiness hasn't been a big problem. I don't recall any techs popping out of the GL on my turn, so I don't think we have Monarchy yet. Our options here are wait for Monarchy, or swap to Republic now/soon and risk the weariness.
More about Kagoshima: It's building a worker, and should have at least one. There is still a Zulu galley about on its way back from Leipzig so we probably don't want to expose it to ship a couple slaves up from Satsuma. I don't think it will be able to get a temple until we swap to Republic or Monarchy and buy it. (If I'd known the war against the Zulu would go so well, I might have whipped the temple after all, though I still think the harbour whip was a good move given what our plans were at the time.)
About research: We are currently researching Feudalism at 10%, which might be a waste of 10% of our cash. We should probably turn off research and wait for the AIs to get it for us. I don't think we're quite ready to go whole-hog on research yet, as we still need to build up cash for horsie upgrades. While we can't predict when we will get Theology (unless we start researching it,) nevertheless at some point we might want to consider prebuilding for the Sistine Chapel.
About Diplomacy: if we do make peace with the Zulu, make sure to cancel our alliance with the Aztecs first. We should be able to without penalty now.
Decisions, decisions, decisions....
I'm at work, so I can't look at the game right now. It would be nice, but.... So take all these suggestions with a grain of salt....
Diplomatic front:
Russians: How do we compare to them militarily? If we're better than them, I think we can probably wait for them to build a city on the NE part of Japan and then demand it from them [often instead of a demand, renegotiating the peace treaty is the way to go. Go into "Active" deals and click on the peace treaty and agree to renegotiate (if you're convinced we can get a good deal) and see what they'll give you -- often a tragic city can be had.](depending on exactly how much they value the iron). If equal, well, I'd like that land ourselves, so I would send one of our settlers there.
Zulus: What will they give us for peace? I'd find out. If we can get a couple cities tribute, I'd probably make the deal. Since so many of their cities appear to be 1/1 with no culture, I would have a few settlers standing by to do a land grab ASAP. The combination of the Persian/Aztec forces will probably do a number but they will autoraze many cities and we can leap into the gaps. The war with other civs, too, means that we might get that much more in a peace settlement. Definitely something to look into.
Aztecs: How long do they live? Can we renegotiate peace with them and get tribute? Maybe after the alliance is cancelled. Definitely carefully check military size beforew trying this one, as we might have to end up giving them tribute or declaring war, which I think is not quite optimal....
Persians: Xerxes seems willing to ally with anyone against anyone else. Suggest using him as a pawn against Aztecs, too, when the time comes -- if he's still around. One city on A/Z land won't be too much of a problem. Use him while we can would be my advice.
Domestic front:
Depending on the Russian situation, either send both settlers to A/Z island or send one there and one north. Roading south of the Zulus (building cities, too, in the ugly tundra there) is important as it gets us closer to Persia when their time comes. Also, land area = score and land area -> population = score. Settle 'em reasonably quickly, probably. Just ugly, though, with the lack of good food production -- and conflicting needs. Is it faster to let others settle and conquer? Quite possibly. Maybe just prioritize a few important cities.
Come to think of it, a city on the island with Swazi might be a good thing. We're gonna have to flip or take Swazi as they'll almost never give it in peace negotiations (two resources). A city there, too, can start to swell and fill the rest of the island, which as I recall actually had food.
Zed's infrastructure push looked good, I would go back to mostly units -- either settlers or horsies, with a few spears (defense) thrown in when the shield count is right. EXCEPT Kyoto -- I think Kyoto's role should be to provide the economic support for nearly the entire nation (pop 12, marketplace, Colussus, library, other gold-adders as research permits).
Research -- 10% is almost always a waste. I'd put it to zero and just get the gold (upgrades, buying techs, bribing alliances, etc.).
Government -- Republic, now. It can handle a lot. Unless we're swimming in units suddenly, the extra gold from each square (each pop point would provide one extra gold/turn) will more than pay for unit costs and probably even up to 20% luxuries, if we need to run that high (which I think/hope we won't!). Just MHO. DEFINITELY this second if peace is declared with the Zulus (declare peace first, though, as being in anarchy might lessen the deal from the Zulus just a bit).
Kagoshima -- sure, finish the worker but PLEASE get the temple built soon. I'd hate to have it flip. I'd blow almost full cash on it (from one shield or whatever). Personally, I'd do it in the other order, buying the temple the instant we hit republic and then going back and finishing the worker (depending on shield investment there, though, of course).
Arathorn
I'm at work, so I can't look at the game right now. It would be nice, but.... So take all these suggestions with a grain of salt....
Diplomatic front:
Russians: How do we compare to them militarily? If we're better than them, I think we can probably wait for them to build a city on the NE part of Japan and then demand it from them [often instead of a demand, renegotiating the peace treaty is the way to go. Go into "Active" deals and click on the peace treaty and agree to renegotiate (if you're convinced we can get a good deal) and see what they'll give you -- often a tragic city can be had.](depending on exactly how much they value the iron). If equal, well, I'd like that land ourselves, so I would send one of our settlers there.
Zulus: What will they give us for peace? I'd find out. If we can get a couple cities tribute, I'd probably make the deal. Since so many of their cities appear to be 1/1 with no culture, I would have a few settlers standing by to do a land grab ASAP. The combination of the Persian/Aztec forces will probably do a number but they will autoraze many cities and we can leap into the gaps. The war with other civs, too, means that we might get that much more in a peace settlement. Definitely something to look into.
Aztecs: How long do they live? Can we renegotiate peace with them and get tribute? Maybe after the alliance is cancelled. Definitely carefully check military size beforew trying this one, as we might have to end up giving them tribute or declaring war, which I think is not quite optimal....
Persians: Xerxes seems willing to ally with anyone against anyone else. Suggest using him as a pawn against Aztecs, too, when the time comes -- if he's still around. One city on A/Z land won't be too much of a problem. Use him while we can would be my advice.
Domestic front:
Depending on the Russian situation, either send both settlers to A/Z island or send one there and one north. Roading south of the Zulus (building cities, too, in the ugly tundra there) is important as it gets us closer to Persia when their time comes. Also, land area = score and land area -> population = score. Settle 'em reasonably quickly, probably. Just ugly, though, with the lack of good food production -- and conflicting needs. Is it faster to let others settle and conquer? Quite possibly. Maybe just prioritize a few important cities.
Come to think of it, a city on the island with Swazi might be a good thing. We're gonna have to flip or take Swazi as they'll almost never give it in peace negotiations (two resources). A city there, too, can start to swell and fill the rest of the island, which as I recall actually had food.
Zed's infrastructure push looked good, I would go back to mostly units -- either settlers or horsies, with a few spears (defense) thrown in when the shield count is right. EXCEPT Kyoto -- I think Kyoto's role should be to provide the economic support for nearly the entire nation (pop 12, marketplace, Colussus, library, other gold-adders as research permits).
Research -- 10% is almost always a waste. I'd put it to zero and just get the gold (upgrades, buying techs, bribing alliances, etc.).
Government -- Republic, now. It can handle a lot. Unless we're swimming in units suddenly, the extra gold from each square (each pop point would provide one extra gold/turn) will more than pay for unit costs and probably even up to 20% luxuries, if we need to run that high (which I think/hope we won't!). Just MHO. DEFINITELY this second if peace is declared with the Zulus (declare peace first, though, as being in anarchy might lessen the deal from the Zulus just a bit).
Kagoshima -- sure, finish the worker but PLEASE get the temple built soon. I'd hate to have it flip. I'd blow almost full cash on it (from one shield or whatever). Personally, I'd do it in the other order, buying the temple the instant we hit republic and then going back and finishing the worker (depending on shield investment there, though, of course).
Arathorn
Hi everyone!
I'll play tonight after work. I can't look at the map now so I can't comment too much, other than to say I'm leaning strongly towards building more units and pressing the attack. I also think we should use our settlers in the "New World", hopefully to one day encircle a Forbidden Palace.
On another note, what are we going to do about 1.21?? It looks like a great patch, and I can't wait to play it. I don't think we can install it now, however, without maintaining the integrity of the competition. If this game lasts several more weeks, though, I don't really want to wait that long to install the patch.
Your thoughts??
I'll play tonight after work. I can't look at the map now so I can't comment too much, other than to say I'm leaning strongly towards building more units and pressing the attack. I also think we should use our settlers in the "New World", hopefully to one day encircle a Forbidden Palace.
On another note, what are we going to do about 1.21?? It looks like a great patch, and I can't wait to play it. I don't think we can install it now, however, without maintaining the integrity of the competition. If this game lasts several more weeks, though, I don't really want to wait that long to install the patch.
Your thoughts??
Some good thoughts. Sounds like we want to swap to Republic immediately then, which will let us buy a temple at Kagoshima right away, as planned. That will be about as quick as we could have built it without whipping anyway. The worker is almost done, so it might be worthwhile to let it finish first, but if not please restart it afterwards.
I'd say getting both settlers to A-Z is worth more than the last miserable corner of our island, we can always take it away from the Russians later if we can't bully them into giving it to us. I'm not convinced we need to bully the Russians sooner rather than later either; that city has no arable land at all and no way to grow, so it's not like it's going to give us much in the way of score, nor is it going to help the Russians anyway. It's going to take them for-eh-vah to build both a culture-producing building AND a harbour needed for them to make any use of that iron. I'd say lets not wake them up or anger them until we're ready to actually back up any demands we make with force. Mind you, that's IMHO, so if you want to flex your muscles against Russia, the mil advisor suggests we can get away with it, and you don't mind tense relations with them, then that's your call. We might be able to placate them with gold/obsolete tech afterwards.
Persians will probably be the last civ we go up against, so we'll be able to use him for quite a while. They have the most room for expansion and the strongest UU other than ourselves (Russia doesn't count, since they'll never see theirs. ) and they are gracious with us due to our lux trading. The Aztec cities are prospering quite well at the moment so they can whip out quite a few troops if they need to; I don't think we're in any position to make demands just now. We can definately use the Persans against the Aztecs but that won't be until after we have made some gains in Zululand and consolidated them. We'll want to see what we can do about getting an FP in there as well.
Zulus making peace -- I'm not sure we'll be able to get much from them, as they're bound to be furious with us for razing their cities (even if we had no choice.) We might have to capture Zimbabwe first. I do think we have the moxie for that on hand; but unfortunately Zimbabwe is going to be tragic from whipping and corruption. Worth a look at the diplomacy table at least, but I would vote for one more push before we make a deal, assuming Republic weariness doesn't force us to make peace immediately (it shouldn't.) If the war continues to go well we could very well snatch up most of Zululand in the negotiations.
Settling tundra: let's let the AI do that and capture their pathetic cities. We have better land to settle in central A-Z land first. The AI is rabildly expansionistic and will happily dilute their population centers and weaken themselves to settle at highly questionable sites (witness the attempt to refound Hlobane,) which is to our advantage. Putting a city on Swazi island is another matter, but I'd say lower priority than A-Z island; there's no way Swazi island will ever be able to defend itself effectively.
DON'T sell our map! If you do, the AIs may go looking for the Russians. I'd like to keep them backward as long as possible to make sure we can conquer them quickly later.
The worker is almost done, so it might be worthwhile to let it finish first, but if not please restart it afterwards.I'd say getting both settlers to A-Z is worth more than the last miserable corner of our island, we can always take it away from the Russians later if we can't bully them into giving it to us. I'm not convinced we need to bully the Russians sooner rather than later either; that city has no arable land at all and no way to grow, so it's not like it's going to give us much in the way of score, nor is it going to help the Russians anyway. It's going to take them for-eh-vah to build both a culture-producing building AND a harbour needed for them to make any use of that iron. I'd say lets not wake them up or anger them until we're ready to actually back up any demands we make with force.
Mind you, that's IMHO, so if you want to flex your muscles against Russia, the mil advisor suggests we can get away with it, and you don't mind tense relations with them, then that's your call. We might be able to placate them with gold/obsolete tech afterwards.Persians will probably be the last civ we go up against, so we'll be able to use him for quite a while. They have the most room for expansion and the strongest UU other than ourselves (Russia doesn't count, since they'll never see theirs.
) and they are gracious with us due to our lux trading. The Aztec cities are prospering quite well at the moment so they can whip out quite a few troops if they need to; I don't think we're in any position to make demands just now. We can definately use the Persans against the Aztecs but that won't be until after we have made some gains in Zululand and consolidated them. We'll want to see what we can do about getting an FP in there as well. Zulus making peace -- I'm not sure we'll be able to get much from them, as they're bound to be furious with us for razing their cities (even if we had no choice.) We might have to capture Zimbabwe first. I do think we have the moxie for that on hand; but unfortunately Zimbabwe is going to be tragic from whipping and corruption. Worth a look at the diplomacy table at least, but I would vote for one more push before we make a deal, assuming Republic weariness doesn't force us to make peace immediately (it shouldn't.) If the war continues to go well we could very well snatch up most of Zululand in the negotiations.
Settling tundra: let's let the AI do that and capture their pathetic cities.
We have better land to settle in central A-Z land first. The AI is rabildly expansionistic and will happily dilute their population centers and weaken themselves to settle at highly questionable sites (witness the attempt to refound Hlobane,) which is to our advantage. Putting a city on Swazi island is another matter, but I'd say lower priority than A-Z island; there's no way Swazi island will ever be able to defend itself effectively.DON'T sell our map! If you do, the AIs may go looking for the Russians. I'd like to keep them backward as long as possible to make sure we can conquer them quickly later.
That's a great question, charlie. I'll put it in the RBD23 thread and see what comes of it there.
For us, ideally, I'd like to just win this before Friday and get on with other things! 
If you play early this evening, I can try to get my turns in tonight, too. Zulus die in your turns and I off the Aztecs, right??????
That'll give the others a chance to play and we finish the game before Friday!!!!
Arathorn
For us, ideally, I'd like to just win this before Friday and get on with other things!
If you play early this evening, I can try to get my turns in tonight, too. Zulus die in your turns and I off the Aztecs, right??????
That'll give the others a chance to play and we finish the game before Friday!!!!Arathorn
In-game comments....
I trust your evaluation of our moxie, Zed. If we can take Zimbabwe and then even move some troops into Zulu territory, we'll be quite ahead in the negotiation game. Maybe enough to get a lot. Try it, charliehoke, please....
If the worker has 7 or more shields, I would let it finish naturally. With 3/4 or so, maybe buy it and then wait a turn or so and buy the temple -- or vice versa. I'd spend a bit of gold for those two items and then let Kagoshima piddle along with other stuff at its own snail's pace.
If there's room for two cities on A/Z island, go for it. The last bit of our land might be semi-productive, but if it's so low food, don't worry about it. (Remember, though, that a harbor can make ANY coastal city size 6.)
EXCELLENT call on not selling our map. Please follow this advice!!!
If no GL, we might want to consider building a FP in Zimb the slow way. It's "only" 200 shields now, so ... Well, hmmm... Even with 3 shields (probably a pipe dream), that's 67 turns and we really want to be done before then. Better pray (and fish) for more leaders. We're gonna need that area productive to keep up all the offensive pushes we're gonna need.
When considering demands, it appears the AI bases its conclusion solely off of current situation -- not future production or ability to "crank out units". If our military would beat theirs, as is, they might capitulate a little. The linkage city between Kago and Satsu would be a nice little present. But relative military strength means a lot.
Speaking of which, it's probably time for a military units push again. charliehoke, work your MM fun. I plead, though, for Kyoto to keep on max food until size at least 10, preferably 12.
Arathorn
I trust your evaluation of our moxie, Zed. If we can take Zimbabwe and then even move some troops into Zulu territory, we'll be quite ahead in the negotiation game. Maybe enough to get a lot. Try it, charliehoke, please....
If the worker has 7 or more shields, I would let it finish naturally. With 3/4 or so, maybe buy it and then wait a turn or so and buy the temple -- or vice versa. I'd spend a bit of gold for those two items and then let Kagoshima piddle along with other stuff at its own snail's pace.
If there's room for two cities on A/Z island, go for it. The last bit of our land might be semi-productive, but if it's so low food, don't worry about it. (Remember, though, that a harbor can make ANY coastal city size 6.)
EXCELLENT call on not selling our map. Please follow this advice!!!
If no GL, we might want to consider building a FP in Zimb the slow way. It's "only" 200 shields now, so ... Well, hmmm... Even with 3 shields (probably a pipe dream), that's 67 turns and we really want to be done before then. Better pray (and fish) for more leaders. We're gonna need that area productive to keep up all the offensive pushes we're gonna need.
When considering demands, it appears the AI bases its conclusion solely off of current situation -- not future production or ability to "crank out units". If our military would beat theirs, as is, they might capitulate a little. The linkage city between Kago and Satsu would be a nice little present. But relative military strength means a lot.
Speaking of which, it's probably time for a military units push again. charliehoke, work your MM fun. I plead, though, for Kyoto to keep on max food until size at least 10, preferably 12.
Arathorn
About FP: Berlin at size 6 with a courthouse in despotism has 5 shields. It's 10 tiles away from Kyoto, whereas Satsuma is 7. Zimbabwe is on decent lands; it's possible we could get up to 5 shields or so under Republic. We won't know until we try, however...
Kagoshima is at at least 8 shields on worker. However, it may make more sense to swap to temple, buy that, swap back to worker, and then decide whether to buy the worker. It will cost us the same amount of $$ either way, but we know we want the temple ASAP, the worker can afford to wait an extra turn or 2 if we're going to buy it anyway. (And, if we can get up to 2 shields under Republic, we can just build the worker and save some $$$.)
Our current military strength is probably about average, so I wouldn't go making too many demands, but that's purely based on gut feel -- check the mil advisor! I agree it's time for a mil push, except in Kyoto. Remember being pushy/demanding has costs at the diplo table too. That might be better something to consider *after* our mil push and we've consolidated at least some of Zululand, rather than before.
As for room for 2 cities on A-Z island, in part it depends on (a) how closely we pack -- a little overlap is not going to hurt us, the game won't last until hospitals -- and (b) how many Zulu cities get autorazed. They are pretty much all size 1 or 2 now, so if they don't have culture, we could lose a lot of potential captures, and we may even need more than 2 settlers as a result; if so, Satsuma can build one pretty easily. Partly that's why I think we want to make a good push (but not so aggressive we overextend ourselves) and negotiate a peace to get most of the rest of Zululand as tribute instead of having to take it. Ideally I'd like to take at least the northern half of Zululand so the Aztecs can't sweep in easily and torch the rest -- the more the better, of course!
Kagoshima is at at least 8 shields on worker. However, it may make more sense to swap to temple, buy that, swap back to worker, and then decide whether to buy the worker. It will cost us the same amount of $$ either way, but we know we want the temple ASAP, the worker can afford to wait an extra turn or 2 if we're going to buy it anyway. (And, if we can get up to 2 shields under Republic, we can just build the worker and save some $$$.)
Our current military strength is probably about average, so I wouldn't go making too many demands, but that's purely based on gut feel -- check the mil advisor! I agree it's time for a mil push, except in Kyoto. Remember being pushy/demanding has costs at the diplo table too. That might be better something to consider *after* our mil push and we've consolidated at least some of Zululand, rather than before.
As for room for 2 cities on A-Z island, in part it depends on (a) how closely we pack -- a little overlap is not going to hurt us, the game won't last until hospitals -- and (b) how many Zulu cities get autorazed. They are pretty much all size 1 or 2 now, so if they don't have culture, we could lose a lot of potential captures, and we may even need more than 2 settlers as a result; if so, Satsuma can build one pretty easily. Partly that's why I think we want to make a good push (but not so aggressive we overextend ourselves) and negotiate a peace to get most of the rest of Zululand as tribute instead of having to take it. Ideally I'd like to take at least the northern half of Zululand so the Aztecs can't sweep in easily and torch the rest -- the more the better, of course!
Here's the lowdown on my turns:
Pre-Turn - 250 AD - I immediately call for a revolution!!![dance] I also move our settlers towards our mighty armada to be ferried over to new world. Out mighty armada is a single galley.
260 AD - Turn 1 - Harbor Completed in Nara, but I sure don't see much potential from this city. We are now a Republic!! Gold income jumps from 14g/turn to over 30!!! I move all of our elite units out of Satsuma and head for Zimbabwe.
270 AD - Turn 2 - In accordance with the plan I attempt to churn units. We don't really have many productive cities though, so I actually only switch Berlin. I'm concentrating on horsemen so we can upgrade them, hopefully soon.
280 AD - Turn 3 - Kyoto finishes the Cathedral, starts the Marketplace. I rush the temple in Kagoshima after the completion of the worker there. We have a large stack outside Zimbabwe. In an unrelated note, did you guys notice how luxury-rich the Russians are!!!
290 AD - Turn 4 - On the off turn, I notice that the Aztecs are also attacking Zimbabwe with something! They don't kill any defenders, however. Our two settlers arrive in Satsuma, and are awaiting escort.
The attack on Zimbabwe: We capture it, at the loss of 1 elite archer and 1 elite horsemen. All in all, our elite units killed 2 Impi and 2 swords, but, alas, no leader. Zimbabwe remains lightly defended.
300 - Turn 5 - The counterattack - A swordsman kills one of our archers that had broken off from the main group to draw their fire.. extra points if you can guess the movie that line is from. In better news, two archers attack our main stack and they all die at the hands of our spearman, which is promoted to elite in the process! The great library gives us engineering, which is cool I guess, but I sure wish those fools were researching Feudalism instead...
310 - Turn 6 - We capture Zimbabwe! [dance]. Temple started, to be rushed next turn. We also own the Oracle! You guys were right about getting a bit overextended... I don't feel like I can press the attack anymore just yet. I move our troops inside the city.
320 - Turn 7 - The city of Nagoyo founded in the hills south of Satsuma. It is surrounded by hills but has access to a cattle and a fish immediately. Temple finished in Zimbabwe.
330 - Turn 8 - We need more troops! I am strongly considering the peace treaty, but I hate to delay us by 20 turns. The Zulu's will only give up one city... I move a horse out to attempt to cut off their iron supply. I am also going to let our new city, Nagoya, build its own temple, since it starts off with two shields. We have lots of cash, however - producing over 40/turn now.
340 - Turn 9 - Zulu and Persians sign a peace treaty!!
Well, I'm going to hold off on the peace treaty. I can't really tell if I should do it or not. Would it be more beneficial to wait the 20 turns to possibly get Samurai, or will we just be wasting valuable conquering time? I guess it's up to the next leader to decide!
350 - Turn 10 - We get Monarchy from the GL. I am moving a settler/spearman pair to the Swazi island since our attack has floundered a bit.
Notes:
We have lots of money, and I don't think I rushed as much stuff as I should have. The big decision is to decide if we should call for peace or not. In any case, good luck!!
Pre-Turn - 250 AD - I immediately call for a revolution!!![dance] I also move our settlers towards our mighty armada to be ferried over to new world. Out mighty armada is a single galley.
260 AD - Turn 1 - Harbor Completed in Nara, but I sure don't see much potential from this city. We are now a Republic!! Gold income jumps from 14g/turn to over 30!!! I move all of our elite units out of Satsuma and head for Zimbabwe.
270 AD - Turn 2 - In accordance with the plan I attempt to churn units. We don't really have many productive cities though, so I actually only switch Berlin. I'm concentrating on horsemen so we can upgrade them, hopefully soon.
280 AD - Turn 3 - Kyoto finishes the Cathedral, starts the Marketplace. I rush the temple in Kagoshima after the completion of the worker there. We have a large stack outside Zimbabwe. In an unrelated note, did you guys notice how luxury-rich the Russians are!!!
290 AD - Turn 4 - On the off turn, I notice that the Aztecs are also attacking Zimbabwe with something! They don't kill any defenders, however. Our two settlers arrive in Satsuma, and are awaiting escort.
The attack on Zimbabwe: We capture it, at the loss of 1 elite archer and 1 elite horsemen. All in all, our elite units killed 2 Impi and 2 swords, but, alas, no leader. Zimbabwe remains lightly defended.
300 - Turn 5 - The counterattack - A swordsman kills one of our archers that had broken off from the main group to draw their fire.. extra points if you can guess the movie that line is from. In better news, two archers attack our main stack and they all die at the hands of our spearman, which is promoted to elite in the process! The great library gives us engineering, which is cool I guess, but I sure wish those fools were researching Feudalism instead...
310 - Turn 6 - We capture Zimbabwe! [dance]. Temple started, to be rushed next turn. We also own the Oracle! You guys were right about getting a bit overextended... I don't feel like I can press the attack anymore just yet. I move our troops inside the city.
320 - Turn 7 - The city of Nagoyo founded in the hills south of Satsuma. It is surrounded by hills but has access to a cattle and a fish immediately. Temple finished in Zimbabwe.
330 - Turn 8 - We need more troops! I am strongly considering the peace treaty, but I hate to delay us by 20 turns. The Zulu's will only give up one city... I move a horse out to attempt to cut off their iron supply. I am also going to let our new city, Nagoya, build its own temple, since it starts off with two shields. We have lots of cash, however - producing over 40/turn now.
340 - Turn 9 - Zulu and Persians sign a peace treaty!!
Well, I'm going to hold off on the peace treaty. I can't really tell if I should do it or not. Would it be more beneficial to wait the 20 turns to possibly get Samurai, or will we just be wasting valuable conquering time? I guess it's up to the next leader to decide!350 - Turn 10 - We get Monarchy from the GL. I am moving a settler/spearman pair to the Swazi island since our attack has floundered a bit.
Notes:
We have lots of money, and I don't think I rushed as much stuff as I should have. The big decision is to decide if we should call for peace or not. In any case, good luck!!
Arathorn's up next. Up to you if we can get enough reinforcements together to keep up the attack on northern Zululand or not. Now that the Aztecs are (visibly) joining the fight, it seems prudent to try to prevent them from getting a lion's share of the spoils, since as far as I can tell we've done most of the work. We might not have the resources on hand to do anything about it, though.
