RBGC SG3: (almost) ALWAYS WAR!

[Zed-F]

Another tactics thought -- at some point we may want to think about the possibility of building one or more military starbases. I have not analyzed this thoroughly yet from a cost/benefit standpoint, but am throwing it out as an idea. The idea with a military starbase is that it takes the role of catapults in Civ3 - it acts as a force magnifier, so that you can fight more battles with fewer losses, improving your kill ratio so you can do more with less. In theory this allows you to more easily concentrate on other tasks (like research/social spending) while your existing military holds off (gasses, in Civ3 terms) the enemy. Testing with the simulator shows that even modest bonuses from the SB can give significant results in unit survivability.

One problem is, Civ3 catapults are mobile, SBs are not (except with Terror Star tech.) We would need to formulate a plan to lure enemy ships to strong points for destruction. Another problem is, starbases are moderately resource-intensive. If we want to try this, we will have to make a commitment to it at some point, and we will have to time when to make that commitment fairly carefully.

 

[aviator99_uk]

Sir, Sir, It works!

Aviator

P.S. I'm not doing anything until ......

 

[Brackard]

Obviously if you are going to build a military starbase, you're going to want to do it in a planet sector where you can increase various other attributes as well? Social/military build increases? It would also make sense since the planets will be a constant target.

 

[Isit]

Testing with the simulator shows that even modest bonuses from the SB can give significant results in unit survivability.

I think terrorstar tech is a great idea. If we get to that point in the game a fully upgraded terrorstar could act as a mobile "fleet core" providing massive bonuses to our fleet. Until that point I it might make sense to build a few starbase but since they are hard to defend, I would suggest only fortifying the starbases we build on things like military resources.Building one "behind" a front line planet to provide economic and military bonus might be worth a try. We would have to control that sector to keep the starbase alive. Even a few ships slipping through could take it down.


aviator99_uk: That’s great news! I am on a four-day weekend ATM so just let me know what you want to do with your turn. Go ahead and go ahead of me if you like, or if you’re not going to be able to play for a while I can slip mine in. Just let me know.

 

[Zed-F]

Remember that Terror Stars are really slow. I hope that by the time we get around to researching Terror Star tech, we won't really need starbases to go on offense anymore. Still, the possibility is there, if we have no better options.

IMHO, regarding resource starbases, I expect the key will be to know what is behind the lines, and what is in front of the lines (i.e. the main thrust of the AI attack.) We probably will not want to construct starbases ahead of the front lines, they are too hard to defend. Starbases at the front lines are a bit risky, but potentially possible to protect. Starbases behind the front lines will be much easier to protect as they will rarely get attacked.

Right now, the front lines are our core systems, and there is nowhere that is behind the lines. A good portion of the game will be defined by the effort to capture territory and move the front lines, to increase the amount of safe areas where we can plant resource starbases. For instance, eliminating the Arceans first is important as it will render the entire SW corner of the map "behind the lines" -- the AI will probably prefer to send its ships at closer targets (like our home systems, or our raiders) rather than bother with stuff in the far corner of the galaxy.

Edit: correcting acronym.

 

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Brackard
Obviously if you are going to build a military starbase, you're going to want to do it in a planet sector where you can increase various other attributes as well? Social/military build increases? It would also make sense since the planets will be a constant target.

I agree. As important as the +production potential is the fact that SBs in our core systems will be easier to defend due to short supply lines (i.e. they are at the front lines, rather than ahead of the front lines.)

A key point is we will still want to make an effort to funnel attackers to attack in specific sectors where we have starbases, and not just generally rely on the fact that they will want to target our planets. I don't think we want to afford to build SBs to cover each of our core systems, though it may come to that if our luring efforts are unsuccessful. The good news is many of our core sectors have multiple planets in them to benefit from ancillary economic modules on our military bases.

 

[Isit]

Remember that Terror Stars are really slow.

Very true. It’s still a cool idea, even if it isn’t very practical.

When I say behind the front lines I mean the front lines in any given sector. If we know which direction the AI ships are coming from we can put the starbase "behind" the planet and away from where the ships are coming in. That will either make the AI go for the planet first or give us time to launch intercepting ships if they do go for the starbase.

 

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by aviator99_uk
Sir, Sir, It works!

Aviator

P.S. I'm not doing anything until ......

Great! Go ahead and take your turn, then, or let Isit know if you can't just now. Even if we ultimately decide that the game is tainted and start over anyway, you might as well if you have the time and nothing more important to do.

More good news, Aaberg should be joining us shortly, our sixth player!

 

[Zed-F]

Very true. It’s still a cool idea, even if it isn’t very practical.

Agreed.

When I say behind the front lines I mean the front lines in any given sector. If we know which direction the AI ships are coming from we can put the starbase "behind" the planet and away from where the ships are coming in. That will either make the AI go for the planet first or give us time to launch intercepting ships if they do go for the starbase.

Right, although that's not the same sense I'm using "front lines" in. I'm referring to a more global front lines for the entire map, rather than just within our home sectors. Your proposal is similar to what I had in mind for starbase locations within our home sectors, but I don't think we should get too comfortable with the idea that the AI won't go past our planets to attack an SB in the same sector, especially if the AI thinks the planet is more strongly defended than the SB. While it probably won't go after targets several sectors behind the lines, it will likely consider going after targets a few tiles behind the lines.

 

[Bam-Bam]

Aviator--play your turn.
Good news about the fix--looks like it's better to be lucky than good.

Zed--right on about the starbases. That cluster of 3 sector looks pretty ripe for a production/military starbase. Your thoughts on gassing are dead on. I have read of some others' exploits where this tactic was used successfully.

As far as mobility, for our planets that are not exactly big-ship productive--what's to say we cannot send out the fleet with a pack of constructors--say 6pack (two +1 attack with cold fusion tech, and Battle stations x3 for +1,+2,& +3 attack). That would give a total of +8 attack, which, when combined with speed (grav acc) and out max sensors, should allow for some devistating combat results.

 

[Bam-Bam]

By the way, we now have a full crew. Aaberg signed up over at Stardock.

Final Roster:
Bam-Bam
Smegged
Zed
Aviator (playing)
Isit (on deck)
Aaberg

Note: Everyone needs to be on the 1.20.086 patch--the latest available via stardock central, to avoid the bugs Aviator saw earlier today.

 

[aviator99_uk]

OK guys. I'm happy that 86 works.

Isit-- Thanks for the go Ahead, right now we have 3 inches of Snow all about so things are being canceled due to SnoClo. So I have won a bunch of free time. I'll take my turn now and post it today (hour or two) which means that you may be able to get a year in later today (your time)

Only thing I have'nt seen mentioned about what's needed soon is to get the manufacturing base established with manu ctrs & Fusion plants to start cranking out those 'vettes.

Aviator

 

[Zed-F]

As far as mobility, for our planets that are not exactly big-ship productive--what's to say we cannot send out the fleet with a pack of constructors--say 6pack (two +1 attack with cold fusion tech, and Battle stations x3 for +1,+2,& +3 attack). That would give a total of +8 attack, which, when combined with speed (grav acc) and out max sensors, should allow for some devistating combat results. [/B]

Is this on one starbase or two? Sorry, I found your phrasing slightly confusing, my bad for not being more familiar with the specifics of SB military upgrades (I suppose I could look it up at Javascout's page.) I would prefer not to build more than one SB per sector if we can avoid it, smacks too much of bombing.

As for being big-ship productive, that only applies once we get to Battleships. Right now, constructors are big ships. We may need more discussion on timing of when to do this. A constructor is equivalent to a Frigate in terms of construction cost, so we probably want to wait until at least then, but do we want to wait all the way to battleships? That seems like a long time...

 

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by aviator99_uk
Only thing I have'nt seen mentioned about what's needed soon is to get the manufacturing base established with manu ctrs & Fusion plants to start cranking out those 'vettes.

Right now, the question is not so much how to get more manufacturing, as how to get more income. I think the government swap plus pop growth will be pretty effective at improving our ability to build corvettes. After all, they are pretty small items, only needing 50pp apiece; once you get them down to 2 turns build time, it's relatively hard to reduce it to a single turn.

We will eventually want manufacturing plants at our planets, once we get the tech, but it's not a priority at the moment. However, I think we are planning to forego fusion plants except at our manufacturing capital for the moment, as the upkeep is too high and we need those funds for fleet maintenance costs.

One other thing we haven't discussed much recently is timing on when to go after our manufacturing capital and grav accelerators. I think this will need to be before we get Interstellar Tactics, but I'm not sure whether we want to try to snag the two nearby Arcean planets first. I suspect much will depend on what techs we can get from minors in the near future.

 

[Brackard]

How about something like baiting the AI to come to you? What if you stripped a few planets of all defenders (in a sector with a maxed starbase) but had the entire defense force in the area? You would receive the starbase bonus and also not have to worry about hunting the enemy down? Just tossing ideas out on the table.

 

[Isit]

One other thing we haven't discussed much recently is timing on when to go after our manufacturing capital and grav accelerators.

That’s really the question. I think any early strikes we do need to come after we get grav accelerators. If we take a few planets but lose the race to this trade good then we may end up winning the battle but losing the war.

 

[Bam-Bam]

Zed--that was for one starbase.

The five attack improvements that are available with cold fusion and space militarization are

Stationary Turrets +1 (cold fusion)
Fusion Cannons +1 (cold fusion)

Battle Stations +1 (space mil)
Battle Stations Mk II +2 (space mil)
Battle Stations Mk III +3 (space mil)

Dread Drones +2 and Microfighers +2 come with Nanobots, and build on to the turrets/cannons chain

Agree on need for Grav Acc before conquest. We cannot let this one get snagged by a major. Good thing this is not AP, where minors are not supposed to build trade goods/wonders (even though they are due to some bugginess). I have an AP game going where Monkey boy rushed the translator within the first two years of the game.

 

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Brackard
How about something like baiting the AI to come to you? What if you stripped a few planets of all defenders (in a sector with a maxed starbase) but had the entire defense force in the area? You would receive the starbase bonus and also not have to worry about hunting the enemy down? Just tossing ideas out on the table.

I don't know. AFAIK, the AI often chooses to target the closest enemy unit with its warships, so we can rotate scouts who have attracted attention back to the core, luring enemy units on the way, then rotate other scouts out. However, I'm not sure how often the AI re-evaluates its ships' targets. Every turn?

I guess we will find out.

 

[Aaberg41]

Thanks for letting me play

Have just finished catching up on this thread. This looks truly challenging and i can't wait to get started.

Just a few thoughts:

Manufacturing boosters: I have never played a game in which i haven't had trade income, but i would suspect that this means that we won't be able to get a high enough income to keep spending at a 100% before mid, late game. Anybody with experience on this ?

 

[Bam-Bam]

I have played abundent games where the local economy dwarfed trade, which is one of the reasons I bumped up the habitability from what Smegged did in his first AW attempt.

I suspect that cashflow is going to be our biggest problem, since we are in the business off offloading citizens to "expand our way of life" to other worlds. That means we have to conserve our units and inflict massive losses on the enemy. Civ3 AW focused on 10:1 type casualty ratios or thereabouts.

We are going to limit our manufacturing builds on our non-manu capital world. We cannot afford social maintenance except for morale/economy boosters that allow us to keep taxes >50% (and to counter enemy destabilization efforts). We also cannot afford to spend too much time social building, since we will need to keep pace with the AIs on tech--making sure they do not get a significant jump on capital ships.

All and all, this is going to be one fun ride.