Rbw2 - Angry Korea Man
- Thread starter Blake
- Start date
When do you think you will be able to post? You have had the game for 8 days now.
The Most Important Thing
I really want to hear some discussion between turn sets: people asking questions about their plans and getting suggestions before they play. It's hard for me to understand what's going on in a game without seeing players talk about the reasons for the decisions they're making; and this greatly increases my overhead when I'm trying to play my turns, because I have to go through the game and assess everything myself. I also don't enjoy being handed a game where someone has made important decisions without consulting the rest of the team. Right now, in this game, we have questions about great person usage, tech path, national wonder placement, and wonder construction; I'd like to talk about these before we just do them. A large part of the reason I'm interested in succession games is so I can learn from discussion. If the other players are interested in quick play without any, maybe this isn't the game for me.
The Second Most Important Thing
I'm really sorry for holding up the succession game this long. My real life has been unexpectedly interesting of late, in some unfun ways, so I didn't know in advance to request a skip and I always seemed just on the cusp of playing. Meanwhile, it's taken me a long time to assimilate the game, construct a plan, and say what I want to about what's going on it. I don't play Civ in a seat-of-the-pants style, which seems to be the style the rest of the team prefers. Maybe it would be better if I just dropped out? Anyways, the first part of this post is a discussion of some issues with the current situation, and avenues for future planning.
State of Angry Korea
The Angry Korean empire is a mess, and that makes me ANGRY! I apologize in advance if I come off sounding harsh, but I feel like it's going to take me awhile to get things straightened out to an arrangement I consider satisfactory.
First, I want to talk about city specialization.
Pyongyang, I'm sorry, is a terrible place for the Heroic Epic. There are three reasonable places for a Heroic Epic city, IMO: a city with lots of food for the Heroic Epic/Globe combination; a city with lots of hammers, to maximize the number of military units one can pump out; or a city with some hammers, some food, and little other potential, that can stay on military the whole game. Pyongyang falls into none of these categories, so I'm not going to finish the Epic there and I'm going to suggest that no one else do it, either. We'll convert the hammers into cash if we build it somewhere else before the hammers decay, IIRC.
Meanwhile, we have a military academy and military instructor in Seoul, which I really don't understand. Production multipliers in Civ4 stack additively, so in general, you want to use the Bureaucracy bonus on production you can't add bonuses to other ways. In particular, for military units, there are both military academies and the Heroic Epic.
More generally, proper use of Bureaucracy is quite important in Civ4. I generally turn the capital into a commerce farm because commerce is harder to generate than production because of Slavery. We've made some steps in this direction, but at the moment Seoul has several farms and lots of mines. I suggest we gradually replace the mines with windmills, particularly after we get Replaceable Parts. Seoul isn't food-rich enough to work all those hills without windmills, anyways. We can't do anything about the military academy or the instructor at this point, so I suggest we just ignore them. Meanwhile, I have to ask: what have we been lightbulbing with our great people? Have we compared the value of a lightbulb versus a Bureaucracy academy? I've almost never reached this point in a game without at least one academy. We may actually be past the point where academies are worthwhile, but we need to talk about this.
I want some plans for city specializations, wonders, and civics. These are all tied together, and I don't want to make unilateral decisions for the team, so I'm going to try to raise issues now. We've already missed opportunities: for one example, Angkor Wat might have been a good play in Illinois (or somewhere) to get some prophets for shrines, but as it is we're only on a path to generate scientists.
For world wonders, almost everything available now and in the near future has been built. The big exception is the Taj Mahal. We have marble and a big lead on Nationalism (I hope), so it seems silly not to build this one. I'm going to put it in Wonsan after whipping the hwacha: Seoul is our best production city, but multipliers stack additively and Seoul has, at the moment, more important things to do, like an aqueduct to counter forest over-chopping and military units to snuff the Chinese invasion. Wonsan doesn't even have a library yet, so it won't be able to build a seowon for awhile. I also don't see that anyone's circumnavigated yet: do we want to try for this? I suspect it's too late, because the AIs have Compass and probably Optics already, so we're rather behind, but I don't know how aggressive they are about getting it.
As for national wonders, the ones available right now are Oxford, the Hermitage, the Heroic Epic, and the Forbidden Palace. Given that we have Mansa in the game, we're going to see Wall Street come up sooner rather than later, we ourselves will soon be close to both the Iron Works and West Point because of our desired military techs, and of course we'll get Drama for the Globe soon.
The National Epic is already in Illinois, which is a good place for it. We need three prophets this game for the Christian (Illinois), Buddhist (Seoul), and Taoist (Berlin) shrines unless we end up conquering more holy cities without shrines. (The Hindu and Confucian shrines are already built; I expect the Jewish shrine will be also by the time we meet the civ responsible, and no one cares about Islam anyways.) I think the only way to get the necessary prophets is to turn our GP farm into a combined science/prophet pump. To this end, I'm going to try to get some temples and a Buddhist stupa up in Illinois, then put up the Christian shrine to add +1 GPP/turn and another prophet source, then hope to get the other two prophets.
At the moment, my inclination is to combine the National Epic with Wall Street and turn Illinois into a merchant/scientist/prophet pump, which will become a mostly merchant/prophet pump after Scientific Method. Illinois will have one of our three shrines, so it's a reasonable place to put Wall Street. We can then settle the merchants in Illinois, increasing its great-person pump capacity and adding nicely to our coffers because of the Wall Street multiplier, or use them for cash bombs.
The other, more orthodox choice would be to put Oxford in Illinois and use it to pump scientists, for academies, settlement, and lightbulbs. Which one of these is better depends partly on civics choices: if we want to use Representation, or a synergy like Representation-Mercantilism-Statue, Oxford is probably the better choice for Illinois. If we want to use Universal Suffrage, Wall Street in Illinois is probably better. I'll talk more about civics in a bit. Either way, I think the other national wonder should go to Seoul: for now, it benefits from Bureaucracy, and later on, it will still be one of our highest commerce cities; and, for Wall Street, it also has a shrine.
I don't know where to put the Heroic Epic. I'm sure Pyongyang is not the right place, but we have no obvious candidates. We can either conquer something appropriate or use one of the suboptimal choices we have available; I'm probably inclined to the former. I also don't know where to put the Iron Works: ideally, we want a high-production city for it, and we don't have any particular standouts. We may also want to consider farming engineers, but that will happen rather late if we can make it work at all.
The other national wonders are easy. This is a Large map, so even thinking about the Forbidden Palace right now is premature. The Hermitage is rarely important. When I use the Globe, I almost always combine it with the Heroic Epic: it's just not that potent a wonder otherwise, for a variety of reasons. I don't think West Point is cost-effective until we get stone, so we should probably delay worrying about it until later in the game and we have a clearer picture of which cities will be specialized for military.
Our cities don't have many improvements. I think the biggest problem along these lines is the lack of forges: we're somewhat strapped for production, but we haven't built any of these. Our science rate at the moment is decent, if not outstanding, but our production is just not adequate with the amount of fighting we have to do. Meanwhile, we aren't even close to the number of seowons we need for Oxford, and we have few monasteries, despite needing to spread our religions and monasteries being hammer-efficient science buildings. (Or, at least, they are until we develop Scientific Method, which is probably a ways off.)
Along with this, there are some builds I consider questionable. Courthouses are not anywhere near cost-effective at this point in the game: not only are we occupying a tiny corner of a Large map, meaning our maintenance costs are small, we're Financial so our cities generate lots of commerce. Meanwhile, we have inappropriate cities building military. Namp'o is the most egregious offender: this city has no production and never will, but generates a lot of commerce. Why is it building military, rather than commerce buildings to multiply what it's good at? We need to strike a balance between improvements and military, and specialization is important in this aspect.
Second are improvement questions. I think we have a few too many farms in just-conquered Germany: I'm going to replace some of them with cottages and watermills, because Germany is also pretty production-poor. In general, I tend to put farms on plains and cottages on grasslands, for the golden age benefits and to encourage cottage growth pre-Biology. I'm biased towards windmills in the long-run for Financial civs, because a river windmill gets the Financial bonus and with Electricity, all windmills get the Financial bonus; however, in the short-run, I think we need to keep more mines for production. Longer-term thinking also needs consideration of our future civics. With State Property, we don't need to worry about saving flatlands forests for production, and we want to start building lots of watermills because with State Property, Replaceable Parts, and Electricity, they're amazing tiles. Universal Suffrage and Free Speech mean we want to put an emphasis on cottage growth.
Cities of special note for improvements are Seoul, because of Bureaucracy, and Illinois, because of the National Epic. As I've said, I prefer to commerce-specialize the capital in general, but we could also consider production-specializing it. I think we should irrigate the rest of Illinois' flatlands and windmill its hills: as a GP-farm, it needs food more than anything else.
Third, I want some civics plans. We're in Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, and Theocracy right now. However, we've started to hit the second major wave of civics. Where do we want to end up? I think I'm inclined to a domination victory, though I'm sure we can pull off culture because it's easy; teching into space might be possible, but it's not going to be the easiest path. At this point, I'm inclined to think that we should aim to get Democracy early for Universal Suffrage: we have quite a few towns, and with the rivers and Financial, we can benefit from adding more. Meanwhile, our terrain isn't that great for production otherwise, and you need lots of production when going on a global conquest. We should either stay in Slavery for the duration, or switch to Emancipation at some point for cottage growth/unhappiness reduction. I think we want State Property in the long run, but I think we should put off Scientific Method for a time, so in the meantime we want either Mercantilism or Free Market. Theocracy is a fine long-run religious civic because of the experience benefits. However, I think that Free Religion could also be quite good for us. Free Religion helps in managing war weariness, increases science (especially now, when we have so few science buildings!), gives us culture from the holy cities and non-Buddhist religions, and decreases the irritation the rest of the world feels at us. Legal, as always, is a tough choice: I don't see that Vassalage is worth it in our situation any more. Ultimately, I think we want to be in Nationhood for the happiness and drafting, or Free Speech for the commerce and culture; unless it's worth sticking with Bureaucracy for the duration?
My tentative plan to minimize anarchy would be to wait and develop Banking/Economics for the first economic civic, then switch to it with Free Religion if we want Free Religion. Then, later, when we have Democracy, we double-switch to Universal Suffrage and out of Bureaucracy or into Free Religion.
Fourth up is our technology path. I'm going to pick up Engineering via trade right now to open up Chemistry and finish that tech. After that, I'll probably get Printing Press, then trade for Guilds, trade for or research Banking, and get Replaceable Parts. In the longer run, I think we want to shoot for Assembly Line rather than early Scientific Method: the techs along that course have larger military and production benefits, and preserve the Great Library and our ability to build monasteries longer.
Fifth, we don't have iron, so we can't build crossbows, and even if we had the tech, we can't build knights. Maybe we'll get it when Essen comes out of rebellion, but that close to Genghis' established culture, I wouldn't count on it. I'm going to found an iron fishing village in the south.
Sixth, we haven't founded any more cities. We have the iron fishing village and the sheep site in the south. I don't really know why these haven't been built: the sheep city has food, flatlands for food and commerce, and hills for production; the iron village has the iron for production, fish for food, and will generate decent commerce from the coast.
I really want to hear some discussion between turn sets: people asking questions about their plans and getting suggestions before they play. It's hard for me to understand what's going on in a game without seeing players talk about the reasons for the decisions they're making; and this greatly increases my overhead when I'm trying to play my turns, because I have to go through the game and assess everything myself. I also don't enjoy being handed a game where someone has made important decisions without consulting the rest of the team. Right now, in this game, we have questions about great person usage, tech path, national wonder placement, and wonder construction; I'd like to talk about these before we just do them. A large part of the reason I'm interested in succession games is so I can learn from discussion. If the other players are interested in quick play without any, maybe this isn't the game for me.
The Second Most Important Thing
I'm really sorry for holding up the succession game this long. My real life has been unexpectedly interesting of late, in some unfun ways, so I didn't know in advance to request a skip and I always seemed just on the cusp of playing. Meanwhile, it's taken me a long time to assimilate the game, construct a plan, and say what I want to about what's going on it. I don't play Civ in a seat-of-the-pants style, which seems to be the style the rest of the team prefers. Maybe it would be better if I just dropped out? Anyways, the first part of this post is a discussion of some issues with the current situation, and avenues for future planning.
State of Angry Korea
The Angry Korean empire is a mess, and that makes me ANGRY! I apologize in advance if I come off sounding harsh, but I feel like it's going to take me awhile to get things straightened out to an arrangement I consider satisfactory.
First, I want to talk about city specialization.
Pyongyang, I'm sorry, is a terrible place for the Heroic Epic. There are three reasonable places for a Heroic Epic city, IMO: a city with lots of food for the Heroic Epic/Globe combination; a city with lots of hammers, to maximize the number of military units one can pump out; or a city with some hammers, some food, and little other potential, that can stay on military the whole game. Pyongyang falls into none of these categories, so I'm not going to finish the Epic there and I'm going to suggest that no one else do it, either. We'll convert the hammers into cash if we build it somewhere else before the hammers decay, IIRC.
Meanwhile, we have a military academy and military instructor in Seoul, which I really don't understand. Production multipliers in Civ4 stack additively, so in general, you want to use the Bureaucracy bonus on production you can't add bonuses to other ways. In particular, for military units, there are both military academies and the Heroic Epic.
More generally, proper use of Bureaucracy is quite important in Civ4. I generally turn the capital into a commerce farm because commerce is harder to generate than production because of Slavery. We've made some steps in this direction, but at the moment Seoul has several farms and lots of mines. I suggest we gradually replace the mines with windmills, particularly after we get Replaceable Parts. Seoul isn't food-rich enough to work all those hills without windmills, anyways. We can't do anything about the military academy or the instructor at this point, so I suggest we just ignore them. Meanwhile, I have to ask: what have we been lightbulbing with our great people? Have we compared the value of a lightbulb versus a Bureaucracy academy? I've almost never reached this point in a game without at least one academy. We may actually be past the point where academies are worthwhile, but we need to talk about this.
I want some plans for city specializations, wonders, and civics. These are all tied together, and I don't want to make unilateral decisions for the team, so I'm going to try to raise issues now. We've already missed opportunities: for one example, Angkor Wat might have been a good play in Illinois (or somewhere) to get some prophets for shrines, but as it is we're only on a path to generate scientists.
For world wonders, almost everything available now and in the near future has been built. The big exception is the Taj Mahal. We have marble and a big lead on Nationalism (I hope), so it seems silly not to build this one. I'm going to put it in Wonsan after whipping the hwacha: Seoul is our best production city, but multipliers stack additively and Seoul has, at the moment, more important things to do, like an aqueduct to counter forest over-chopping and military units to snuff the Chinese invasion. Wonsan doesn't even have a library yet, so it won't be able to build a seowon for awhile. I also don't see that anyone's circumnavigated yet: do we want to try for this? I suspect it's too late, because the AIs have Compass and probably Optics already, so we're rather behind, but I don't know how aggressive they are about getting it.
As for national wonders, the ones available right now are Oxford, the Hermitage, the Heroic Epic, and the Forbidden Palace. Given that we have Mansa in the game, we're going to see Wall Street come up sooner rather than later, we ourselves will soon be close to both the Iron Works and West Point because of our desired military techs, and of course we'll get Drama for the Globe soon.
The National Epic is already in Illinois, which is a good place for it. We need three prophets this game for the Christian (Illinois), Buddhist (Seoul), and Taoist (Berlin) shrines unless we end up conquering more holy cities without shrines. (The Hindu and Confucian shrines are already built; I expect the Jewish shrine will be also by the time we meet the civ responsible, and no one cares about Islam anyways.) I think the only way to get the necessary prophets is to turn our GP farm into a combined science/prophet pump. To this end, I'm going to try to get some temples and a Buddhist stupa up in Illinois, then put up the Christian shrine to add +1 GPP/turn and another prophet source, then hope to get the other two prophets.
At the moment, my inclination is to combine the National Epic with Wall Street and turn Illinois into a merchant/scientist/prophet pump, which will become a mostly merchant/prophet pump after Scientific Method. Illinois will have one of our three shrines, so it's a reasonable place to put Wall Street. We can then settle the merchants in Illinois, increasing its great-person pump capacity and adding nicely to our coffers because of the Wall Street multiplier, or use them for cash bombs.
The other, more orthodox choice would be to put Oxford in Illinois and use it to pump scientists, for academies, settlement, and lightbulbs. Which one of these is better depends partly on civics choices: if we want to use Representation, or a synergy like Representation-Mercantilism-Statue, Oxford is probably the better choice for Illinois. If we want to use Universal Suffrage, Wall Street in Illinois is probably better. I'll talk more about civics in a bit. Either way, I think the other national wonder should go to Seoul: for now, it benefits from Bureaucracy, and later on, it will still be one of our highest commerce cities; and, for Wall Street, it also has a shrine.
I don't know where to put the Heroic Epic. I'm sure Pyongyang is not the right place, but we have no obvious candidates. We can either conquer something appropriate or use one of the suboptimal choices we have available; I'm probably inclined to the former. I also don't know where to put the Iron Works: ideally, we want a high-production city for it, and we don't have any particular standouts. We may also want to consider farming engineers, but that will happen rather late if we can make it work at all.
The other national wonders are easy. This is a Large map, so even thinking about the Forbidden Palace right now is premature. The Hermitage is rarely important. When I use the Globe, I almost always combine it with the Heroic Epic: it's just not that potent a wonder otherwise, for a variety of reasons. I don't think West Point is cost-effective until we get stone, so we should probably delay worrying about it until later in the game and we have a clearer picture of which cities will be specialized for military.
Our cities don't have many improvements. I think the biggest problem along these lines is the lack of forges: we're somewhat strapped for production, but we haven't built any of these. Our science rate at the moment is decent, if not outstanding, but our production is just not adequate with the amount of fighting we have to do. Meanwhile, we aren't even close to the number of seowons we need for Oxford, and we have few monasteries, despite needing to spread our religions and monasteries being hammer-efficient science buildings. (Or, at least, they are until we develop Scientific Method, which is probably a ways off.)
Along with this, there are some builds I consider questionable. Courthouses are not anywhere near cost-effective at this point in the game: not only are we occupying a tiny corner of a Large map, meaning our maintenance costs are small, we're Financial so our cities generate lots of commerce. Meanwhile, we have inappropriate cities building military. Namp'o is the most egregious offender: this city has no production and never will, but generates a lot of commerce. Why is it building military, rather than commerce buildings to multiply what it's good at? We need to strike a balance between improvements and military, and specialization is important in this aspect.
Second are improvement questions. I think we have a few too many farms in just-conquered Germany: I'm going to replace some of them with cottages and watermills, because Germany is also pretty production-poor. In general, I tend to put farms on plains and cottages on grasslands, for the golden age benefits and to encourage cottage growth pre-Biology. I'm biased towards windmills in the long-run for Financial civs, because a river windmill gets the Financial bonus and with Electricity, all windmills get the Financial bonus; however, in the short-run, I think we need to keep more mines for production. Longer-term thinking also needs consideration of our future civics. With State Property, we don't need to worry about saving flatlands forests for production, and we want to start building lots of watermills because with State Property, Replaceable Parts, and Electricity, they're amazing tiles. Universal Suffrage and Free Speech mean we want to put an emphasis on cottage growth.
Cities of special note for improvements are Seoul, because of Bureaucracy, and Illinois, because of the National Epic. As I've said, I prefer to commerce-specialize the capital in general, but we could also consider production-specializing it. I think we should irrigate the rest of Illinois' flatlands and windmill its hills: as a GP-farm, it needs food more than anything else.
Third, I want some civics plans. We're in Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Slavery, and Theocracy right now. However, we've started to hit the second major wave of civics. Where do we want to end up? I think I'm inclined to a domination victory, though I'm sure we can pull off culture because it's easy; teching into space might be possible, but it's not going to be the easiest path. At this point, I'm inclined to think that we should aim to get Democracy early for Universal Suffrage: we have quite a few towns, and with the rivers and Financial, we can benefit from adding more. Meanwhile, our terrain isn't that great for production otherwise, and you need lots of production when going on a global conquest. We should either stay in Slavery for the duration, or switch to Emancipation at some point for cottage growth/unhappiness reduction. I think we want State Property in the long run, but I think we should put off Scientific Method for a time, so in the meantime we want either Mercantilism or Free Market. Theocracy is a fine long-run religious civic because of the experience benefits. However, I think that Free Religion could also be quite good for us. Free Religion helps in managing war weariness, increases science (especially now, when we have so few science buildings!), gives us culture from the holy cities and non-Buddhist religions, and decreases the irritation the rest of the world feels at us. Legal, as always, is a tough choice: I don't see that Vassalage is worth it in our situation any more. Ultimately, I think we want to be in Nationhood for the happiness and drafting, or Free Speech for the commerce and culture; unless it's worth sticking with Bureaucracy for the duration?
My tentative plan to minimize anarchy would be to wait and develop Banking/Economics for the first economic civic, then switch to it with Free Religion if we want Free Religion. Then, later, when we have Democracy, we double-switch to Universal Suffrage and out of Bureaucracy or into Free Religion.
Fourth up is our technology path. I'm going to pick up Engineering via trade right now to open up Chemistry and finish that tech. After that, I'll probably get Printing Press, then trade for Guilds, trade for or research Banking, and get Replaceable Parts. In the longer run, I think we want to shoot for Assembly Line rather than early Scientific Method: the techs along that course have larger military and production benefits, and preserve the Great Library and our ability to build monasteries longer.
Fifth, we don't have iron, so we can't build crossbows, and even if we had the tech, we can't build knights. Maybe we'll get it when Essen comes out of rebellion, but that close to Genghis' established culture, I wouldn't count on it. I'm going to found an iron fishing village in the south.
Sixth, we haven't founded any more cities. We have the iron fishing village and the sheep site in the south. I don't really know why these haven't been built: the sheep city has food, flatlands for food and commerce, and hills for production; the iron village has the iron for production, fish for food, and will generate decent commerce from the coast.
Executive Summary of My Turn Set
Turn Log
Inherited turn, 1350 AD: First, I make some trades to set us on the path to better units. I trade Philosophy (Mali built Angkor Wat and we discovered Liberalism, so holding this tech is pointless) to Genghis Khan for 200 gold and Engineering. I then trade him Paper for Horseback Riding and 475 gold, figuring we'll be getting Guilds or Military Tradition soon for knights or cavalry, respectively. I start research on Chemistry, due in six turns. I also sign open borders and sell him cows for 8 gpt: we may be angry, but we'll be angry and dead without any allies.
I whip Wonsan's hwacha (1 pop, so the long-term penalty isn't that bad) and set it to start the Taj Mahal. I switch Seoul to an aqueduct: I'll probably have it build some grenadiers once Chemistry comes in, but right, the city is growth-crimped. I switch Pyongyang, Namp'o, and Hamburg straight to forges; while letting Frankfurt, Pusan, and Cologne finish their military builds before going to forges. However, there's a Malinese settler wandering around in our territory, so first I enqueue settlers in Pusan and Frankfurt for whipping, to make sure Mansa doesn't steal either of the southern city sites. Munich needs to be able to run an engineer, so I put it on a forge after the lighthouse. I leave Berlin on a library for now. Finally, I put Illinois on a Buddhist temple for whipping.
I also put all our cities on the governor and switch to the default. One of the good things about BetterAI is that emphasize food/production/commerce is not necessary: usually, the default is fine for most purposes.
1360 AD: I whip some settlers out of Pusan and Frankfurt, and the Buddhist temple in Illinois. I sacrifice a musket in the process of killing Mao's raiders near Seoul.
1370 AD: IBT, someone finishes the Spiral Minaret. I move settlers and city guards into position.
1380 AD: IBT, Roosevelt wants open borders; I refuse, of course. Then I see this terrifying thing:
Unfortunately, most of our units were still healing up from the German conquest, so I start sending them back south. I rush units to Pyongyang, preparing to counter an advance on either it or Illinois, and start walls in Pyongyang and Illinois. I start another musket in Seoul. If Mao decides to go pillaging, there's really nothing I can do: that army is too big to beat until we can start building grenadiers. I hope he decides to break it on a city, because there's a good chance we can hold on because of Protective.
I also found the sheep city, Cheju, this turn.
1390 AD: IBT, Mansa demands we convert to Confucianism. I laugh at him, but our diplomatic situation is deteriorating further, as if we needed it to.
Two more Chinese stacks appear, one in the south in support of the other stack, and one near Essen.
The stack of death moves towards Illinois. I move out some longbows from Pyongyang to fortify the city. I whip the walls: I'm hoping to slow the AI's bombardment of the city, to give reinforcements time to arrive.
The Essen stack is small and probably not a threat to the cities in the area, but I redirect some units to reinforce them.
1400 AD: IBT, Hannibal demands Paper. He's probably going to declare war soon, but I don't feel like giving into his demands.
Unfortunately, another Chinese stack of death appears near Pyongyang. I'd like to deny the hill near Illinois to the first SoD, but he has overwhelming force, so I'd rather defend in the city.
The stack near Essen pillages a hamlet, and I kill it, losing a hwacha in the process.
Illinois births a great scientist. He can discover Printing Press, which should be our next peacetime tech, IMO, but for now I'm going to stash him, since I'll need cash for upgrades.
1410 AD: Mao's stack moves away from Illinois. I'm not sure why. I move units to positions in-between Illinois and Pyongyang so I can counter an advance on any either city.
We discover Chemistry.
I whip a castle in Illinois. Pyongyang finishes walls and starts on a grenadier for whipping. Seoul starts a grenadier.
1420 AD: Mao moves a small stack next to Pyongyang and pillages a winery. I retaliate and kill the stack with no losses, creating a great general in Pyongyang.
1430 AD: The Chinese stacks in the south retreat outside our sight range. Another stack appears near Seoul.
1440 AD: IBT, Mansa offers Drama for Education and 340 gold. I laugh in his face and tell him, "I HATE YOU!"
The Chinese stacks from south appear in Carthaginian territory near Seoul, and the stack near Seoul I noted the previous turn advances into the flatlands.
Unfortunately, the only hwachas we have near Seoul are the veteran city-raider promoted ones from the German war. I sacrifice some of the less experienced ones (plus one new one) to weaken the stack, then start hitting it with grenadiers, muskets, longbows, and hwachas until it's dead.
1450 AD: IBT, Genghis declares war on Roosevelt and asks us to join. They're a weak civ, so I agree to join in: we can't make any deal with America anyways, so they're useless to us, and as I've observed, we need allies.
The Save
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/105085/ANGRY_KOREA_MAN_AD-1450.CivWarlordsSave
- We're at war with the US because Genghis asked us.
- Mao has a consolidated stack of doom approaching Seoul. It should have to move into the flatlands next turn. I've assembled a large force to counter it near Seoul, consisting of most of our hwachas and a mix of grenadiers, muskets, and longbows. Mao will offer a small amount of gold for peace at this point, so Blake, you're free to take that instead if you wish: I'm more inclined myself to kill the stack, then see if we can extort some useful tech for peace.
- I've overwhipped Illinois by quite a bit. However, I don't think we're done whipping it yet, because I wasn't able to fit in both temples between the military deterrence builds. Right now, I'm sending some overflow to a seowon. I suggest we do that, then start a temple next turn, then whip the temple, then let it finish the seowon normally. If unhappiness becomes a problem, we can stack some more troops in the city until the whipping wears off. Once we have Music, we'll want to put a stupa there ASAP so we can hire more priests, but two priests, an engineer, and the great library scientists are the best we can do for now, I think.
- I've been using Seoul to produce military to deal with the Chinese problem. As soon as it's practical, I think Seoul should finish the aqueduct has queued, then go on to other basic infrastructure such as forge.
- We have a lot of religion-spreading to do if we want to make full use of our shrines and Buddhist state religion. I didn't have time to do this during my turns.
- I've been storing cash to deficit research Printing Press or upgrade units to grenadiers. At this point, I feel that we should beeline to Replaceable Parts ASAP: we're kind of production-starved, in a way that Replaceable Parts will help a lot. Replaceable Parts also opens up Rifling and has several prerequisites that are good for us anyways.
- We have a great general and great scientist in Seoul. What should we use them for? I'm inclined to build an academy or lightbulb Printing Press with the scientist. I'm not sure about the great general.
Turn Log
Inherited turn, 1350 AD: First, I make some trades to set us on the path to better units. I trade Philosophy (Mali built Angkor Wat and we discovered Liberalism, so holding this tech is pointless) to Genghis Khan for 200 gold and Engineering. I then trade him Paper for Horseback Riding and 475 gold, figuring we'll be getting Guilds or Military Tradition soon for knights or cavalry, respectively. I start research on Chemistry, due in six turns. I also sign open borders and sell him cows for 8 gpt: we may be angry, but we'll be angry and dead without any allies.
I whip Wonsan's hwacha (1 pop, so the long-term penalty isn't that bad) and set it to start the Taj Mahal. I switch Seoul to an aqueduct: I'll probably have it build some grenadiers once Chemistry comes in, but right, the city is growth-crimped. I switch Pyongyang, Namp'o, and Hamburg straight to forges; while letting Frankfurt, Pusan, and Cologne finish their military builds before going to forges. However, there's a Malinese settler wandering around in our territory, so first I enqueue settlers in Pusan and Frankfurt for whipping, to make sure Mansa doesn't steal either of the southern city sites. Munich needs to be able to run an engineer, so I put it on a forge after the lighthouse. I leave Berlin on a library for now. Finally, I put Illinois on a Buddhist temple for whipping.
I also put all our cities on the governor and switch to the default. One of the good things about BetterAI is that emphasize food/production/commerce is not necessary: usually, the default is fine for most purposes.
1360 AD: I whip some settlers out of Pusan and Frankfurt, and the Buddhist temple in Illinois. I sacrifice a musket in the process of killing Mao's raiders near Seoul.
1370 AD: IBT, someone finishes the Spiral Minaret. I move settlers and city guards into position.
1380 AD: IBT, Roosevelt wants open borders; I refuse, of course. Then I see this terrifying thing:
Unfortunately, most of our units were still healing up from the German conquest, so I start sending them back south. I rush units to Pyongyang, preparing to counter an advance on either it or Illinois, and start walls in Pyongyang and Illinois. I start another musket in Seoul. If Mao decides to go pillaging, there's really nothing I can do: that army is too big to beat until we can start building grenadiers. I hope he decides to break it on a city, because there's a good chance we can hold on because of Protective.
I also found the sheep city, Cheju, this turn.
1390 AD: IBT, Mansa demands we convert to Confucianism. I laugh at him, but our diplomatic situation is deteriorating further, as if we needed it to.
Two more Chinese stacks appear, one in the south in support of the other stack, and one near Essen.
The stack of death moves towards Illinois. I move out some longbows from Pyongyang to fortify the city. I whip the walls: I'm hoping to slow the AI's bombardment of the city, to give reinforcements time to arrive.
The Essen stack is small and probably not a threat to the cities in the area, but I redirect some units to reinforce them.
1400 AD: IBT, Hannibal demands Paper. He's probably going to declare war soon, but I don't feel like giving into his demands.
Unfortunately, another Chinese stack of death appears near Pyongyang. I'd like to deny the hill near Illinois to the first SoD, but he has overwhelming force, so I'd rather defend in the city.
The stack near Essen pillages a hamlet, and I kill it, losing a hwacha in the process.
Illinois births a great scientist. He can discover Printing Press, which should be our next peacetime tech, IMO, but for now I'm going to stash him, since I'll need cash for upgrades.
1410 AD: Mao's stack moves away from Illinois. I'm not sure why. I move units to positions in-between Illinois and Pyongyang so I can counter an advance on any either city.
We discover Chemistry.
I whip a castle in Illinois. Pyongyang finishes walls and starts on a grenadier for whipping. Seoul starts a grenadier.
1420 AD: Mao moves a small stack next to Pyongyang and pillages a winery. I retaliate and kill the stack with no losses, creating a great general in Pyongyang.
1430 AD: The Chinese stacks in the south retreat outside our sight range. Another stack appears near Seoul.
1440 AD: IBT, Mansa offers Drama for Education and 340 gold. I laugh in his face and tell him, "I HATE YOU!"
The Chinese stacks from south appear in Carthaginian territory near Seoul, and the stack near Seoul I noted the previous turn advances into the flatlands.
Unfortunately, the only hwachas we have near Seoul are the veteran city-raider promoted ones from the German war. I sacrifice some of the less experienced ones (plus one new one) to weaken the stack, then start hitting it with grenadiers, muskets, longbows, and hwachas until it's dead.
1450 AD: IBT, Genghis declares war on Roosevelt and asks us to join. They're a weak civ, so I agree to join in: we can't make any deal with America anyways, so they're useless to us, and as I've observed, we need allies.
The Save
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/105085/ANGRY_KOREA_MAN_AD-1450.CivWarlordsSave
sunrise089
Not that good
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 798
Iainuki: thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree with you that more discussion would be nice, but unfortunately I'm just not a good enough player to offer much of it to this team.
Kodii
Ka ICE
Iainuki, in an SG such as this, there isn't much need for huge analysis. There is no competition factor, so its probably best to play, enjoy and learn off of the mistakes and experiences of others.
Kodii, I know it isn't necessary like it is in a competitive format, but to me, the analysis is part of the fun of the game. I like planning, and what I write on SG posts is akin to the thought processes I use in my private games. If this is the way you feel, I should probably just drop out of the game.
Swiss Pauli
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,805
Zip it and upload it?
Swiss Pauli
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,805
SHUT UP I HATE HUGE DISCUSSION OF MICROMANAGEMENT!
But seriously, improvements and city builds aren't really worth writing about at length, unless an immediate strategic change (farming over towns, windmilling over mines) is being proposed; these points would be better off in a follow up post. If you don't like the city builds, change 'em. These dead paragraphs detract from important points of strategic discussion (tech, national wonders) that you raise.
I have another comment on the organisation of your prose: it's too much for one post. In order for the reader to pick up the most salient point(s), I'd recommend splitting your reports into three posts: pre-set analysis, exec summary and report (a bit more 'in character' writing would be nice here and not detract from the anaylsis parts), and post-set analysis. And maybe leave out the civics analysis for a later post, given that your conclusion is to do nothing for a while.
Setting your report out in such a way will also answer some of your own questions (why does Seoul have 2 merged GGs) because experiencing the flow of play can give better insight into why certain decisions have been made than a 'cold' pre-set analysis can.
But seriously, improvements and city builds aren't really worth writing about at length, unless an immediate strategic change (farming over towns, windmilling over mines) is being proposed; these points would be better off in a follow up post. If you don't like the city builds, change 'em. These dead paragraphs detract from important points of strategic discussion (tech, national wonders) that you raise.
I have another comment on the organisation of your prose: it's too much for one post. In order for the reader to pick up the most salient point(s), I'd recommend splitting your reports into three posts: pre-set analysis, exec summary and report (a bit more 'in character' writing would be nice here and not detract from the anaylsis parts), and post-set analysis. And maybe leave out the civics analysis for a later post, given that your conclusion is to do nothing for a while.
Setting your report out in such a way will also answer some of your own questions (why does Seoul have 2 merged GGs) because experiencing the flow of play can give better insight into why certain decisions have been made than a 'cold' pre-set analysis can.
Swiss Pauli
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,805
Use the 'upload' page and post a linky should work.
The main "problem" with this SG is that it turned out just far too easy, with a god-given path to victory of Longbow + Hwacha.
I tend to disagree about city specialization. This is something which is not so important for Financial leaders, because all cities end up pretty samey - like as you note, Windmills are a great build for financial. This means that all cities end up with a mix of hammer and commerce. The science rate usually ends up high, but not quite so high that you can afford to neglect gold builds (as an Organized leader with Shrines might be able to).
Your also wrong about courthouses, an average city is at 7-8 upkeep and maybe 15 or so average gold (30 commerce at sustainable science rate of 50%
. This means a courthouse will save 4gpt while a marketplace will provide around +4gpt also. Usually the happiness is of some consideration but in this case we have oodles of it (everyone loves Angry Korea!). Once we get Banks (which are a much better build than markets or grocers, sans health/happy) our sustainable science rate will be approximately 50% higher with banks alone, which will considerably reduce the profitability of markets/grocers, while the value of the courthouse (which is cheaper) will remain constant.
For cost, even a Seowon is not much better in such a city, I mean it's worse actually. Since it costs 66% more to build. Once we have Banks though the Seowons will really start to shine. Towards these ends it's probably best not to build courthouses in cases where a city can build a Forge, Grocer (if needed for Health), Market (if needed for Happy), Bank (once we can), Seowon (if it is more profitable). We have that glut of buildings to build now, but they weren't available before meaning the courthouses weren't necessarily a bad choice.
Turn 0 activities and thoughts (I'll play more later):
Built an Academy in Seoul with the GS, pleased to see we already have one in Pyon (which outside of BigB is actually the highest commerce). Academies in high commerce cities own, ok?
Whipped granaries and forges where needed and or got the city ready to build them. We really really need forges, forges asap. Unless the workers are on great tiles, they should die to get a forge in, forges mean everything else come in faster.
In our Iron fishing village, switched the build to a Lighthouse. But it actually doesn't matter - it'll end up building both a granary and lighthouse on the iron mine (once it finally gets a visit from an angry buddhist monk).
Illinios gets prepared to have another temple whipped in so it can run 2 priests.
I traded Education to Genghis for Guilds. We have not one, but three resources which give health with Grocers and some cities need that health, much better to get a +3 Grocer with +25% Gold than an Aqueducts (and where there is illhealth, it definitely must be cured with either whippings or health buildings).
I also ensured that a couple of workers would be heading over to Essen to connect the Iron, we could use some mobility.
Turn 1:
Forges grocers and such (grocers in cities which will be unhealthy soon).
I note Genghis has Banking, I get Banking and Compass from him for Liberalism. Trust me, the Wannabe-Angry Mongols have no idea what to do with it.
I also fight Mao's stack, all our units win or retreat. There's still lots of units left, but with the reinforcements coming in I figure I can easily hold the hill and kill more next time. The ransom for peace has increased to his World Map (which will be useful!) + 150g, no tech yet though.
I'm not entirely sure about Civics, I am thinking Free Speech + Merchantalism. The reason is that we have somewhere around 30 Towns/Villages meaning FS will give +60 commerce/turn, quite a bit more than the 25 commerce BigB gives, it also saves 10gpt in civic upkeep, and there's the culture. I want to stay in Theocracy because it makes everyone angry at us. Merchantalism is just obvious no-one likes us.
I'll play more later.
edit: Something I forgot to mention is that the cities had whack emphasis settings, in the end I selected all cities and pulsed the emphasis settings and governor buttons (turned them on and off again) to ensure all cities were being managed by the mostly competent Better AI default governor, which even in this older version tends to do better than a human who isn't checking every city every turn.
I tend to disagree about city specialization. This is something which is not so important for Financial leaders, because all cities end up pretty samey - like as you note, Windmills are a great build for financial. This means that all cities end up with a mix of hammer and commerce. The science rate usually ends up high, but not quite so high that you can afford to neglect gold builds (as an Organized leader with Shrines might be able to).
Your also wrong about courthouses, an average city is at 7-8 upkeep and maybe 15 or so average gold (30 commerce at sustainable science rate of 50%
. This means a courthouse will save 4gpt while a marketplace will provide around +4gpt also. Usually the happiness is of some consideration but in this case we have oodles of it (everyone loves Angry Korea!). Once we get Banks (which are a much better build than markets or grocers, sans health/happy) our sustainable science rate will be approximately 50% higher with banks alone, which will considerably reduce the profitability of markets/grocers, while the value of the courthouse (which is cheaper) will remain constant.For cost, even a Seowon is not much better in such a city, I mean it's worse actually. Since it costs 66% more to build. Once we have Banks though the Seowons will really start to shine. Towards these ends it's probably best not to build courthouses in cases where a city can build a Forge, Grocer (if needed for Health), Market (if needed for Happy), Bank (once we can), Seowon (if it is more profitable). We have that glut of buildings to build now, but they weren't available before meaning the courthouses weren't necessarily a bad choice.
Turn 0 activities and thoughts (I'll play more later):
Built an Academy in Seoul with the GS, pleased to see we already have one in Pyon (which outside of BigB is actually the highest commerce). Academies in high commerce cities own, ok?
Whipped granaries and forges where needed and or got the city ready to build them. We really really need forges, forges asap. Unless the workers are on great tiles, they should die to get a forge in, forges mean everything else come in faster.
In our Iron fishing village, switched the build to a Lighthouse. But it actually doesn't matter - it'll end up building both a granary and lighthouse on the iron mine (once it finally gets a visit from an angry buddhist monk).
Illinios gets prepared to have another temple whipped in so it can run 2 priests.
I traded Education to Genghis for Guilds. We have not one, but three resources which give health with Grocers and some cities need that health, much better to get a +3 Grocer with +25% Gold than an Aqueducts (and where there is illhealth, it definitely must be cured with either whippings or health buildings).
I also ensured that a couple of workers would be heading over to Essen to connect the Iron, we could use some mobility.
Turn 1:
Forges grocers and such (grocers in cities which will be unhealthy soon).
I note Genghis has Banking, I get Banking and Compass from him for Liberalism. Trust me, the Wannabe-Angry Mongols have no idea what to do with it.
I also fight Mao's stack, all our units win or retreat. There's still lots of units left, but with the reinforcements coming in I figure I can easily hold the hill and kill more next time. The ransom for peace has increased to his World Map (which will be useful!) + 150g, no tech yet though.
I'm not entirely sure about Civics, I am thinking Free Speech + Merchantalism. The reason is that we have somewhere around 30 Towns/Villages meaning FS will give +60 commerce/turn, quite a bit more than the 25 commerce BigB gives, it also saves 10gpt in civic upkeep, and there's the culture. I want to stay in Theocracy because it makes everyone angry at us. Merchantalism is just obvious no-one likes us.
I'll play more later.
edit: Something I forgot to mention is that the cities had whack emphasis settings, in the end I selected all cities and pulsed the emphasis settings and governor buttons (turned them on and off again) to ensure all cities were being managed by the mostly competent Better AI default governor, which even in this older version tends to do better than a human who isn't checking every city every turn.
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
lurker's comment: I can select all cities. I can pulse the govern buttons (nice word selection there, Blake). I know how to select all cities and set them all to build the same thing. But how do you select all cities AND pulse?
Select all cities and pulse the buttons, that's all there is to it. There's no need to open the city screen to adjust the buttons.
Turn 2:
Kill a lot of chinamen.
"Now he was practically invincible wielding the double-barrel automatic chinaman cannon."
(Sorry!
)
Mao knows when he is beat.
I switch to Free Speech + Merchantalism.
Turn 3:
Nothing happened because everyone was angry about free speech.
Turn 4:
NO MANSA MUSA I HATE YOU.
BUT YOU CAN HAVE A WAR!
WE ARE NOW AT WAR WITH STUPID MALI.
BECAUSE WE HATE THEM.
AND THEY ARE STUPID.
Our army is actually not up in the north (
) so I send it up there and also whip a couple of grenadiers in case mansa musa actually has the balls to cross the border into ANGRY KOREA LAND. I think not! But Mansa Musa is stupid!
The remaining turns basically involved some economic development stuff forges and grocers and what's not and also getting barracks in more cities, we need more angry buddhist monks too so we can get more theocracy power!
We researched Printing Press and then I decided that Cannons would be good, after Steel we want Replaceable Parts and then probably rifling.
Our army is in Berlin. There is a GG there. Maybe attach it to our best Hwacha and get the free upgrade to Cannon so we would have a super cannon for killing Malis with (name it the ANGRY KOREA CANNON). Cannons own so hard.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84705/ANGRY_KOREA_MAN_AD-1525.CivWarlordsSave
Turn 2:
Kill a lot of chinamen.
"Now he was practically invincible wielding the double-barrel automatic chinaman cannon."
(Sorry!
)Mao knows when he is beat.
I switch to Free Speech + Merchantalism.
Turn 3:
Nothing happened because everyone was angry about free speech.
Turn 4:
NO MANSA MUSA I HATE YOU.
BUT YOU CAN HAVE A WAR!
WE ARE NOW AT WAR WITH STUPID MALI.
BECAUSE WE HATE THEM.
AND THEY ARE STUPID.
Our army is actually not up in the north (
) so I send it up there and also whip a couple of grenadiers in case mansa musa actually has the balls to cross the border into ANGRY KOREA LAND. I think not! But Mansa Musa is stupid!The remaining turns basically involved some economic development stuff forges and grocers and what's not and also getting barracks in more cities, we need more angry buddhist monks too so we can get more theocracy power!
We researched Printing Press and then I decided that Cannons would be good, after Steel we want Replaceable Parts and then probably rifling.
Our army is in Berlin. There is a GG there. Maybe attach it to our best Hwacha and get the free upgrade to Cannon so we would have a super cannon for killing Malis with (name it the ANGRY KOREA CANNON). Cannons own so hard.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/84705/ANGRY_KOREA_MAN_AD-1525.CivWarlordsSave
Swiss Pauli
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,805
SHUT UP I GOT IT!
Swein Forkbeard
Nintendo Fan
Kill those evil Malinese!
I like the ANGRY KOREA CANNON idea.
Why did you wait so long to obtain drama technology?
I like the ANGRY KOREA CANNON idea.
Why did you wait so long to obtain drama technology?
Swiss Pauli
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,805
SHUT UP I HATE BARBS:
(Mainly because I'm a clown who moves the unit onto a hill on the next turn and loses it
)
Mali's damned Knights made me ANGRY and I lost some stupid units that weren't ANGRY enough to be KOREA FIGHTERS!
I'll be back for you later...with a special something for your Knights:
The ANGRY KOREA CANNON was created (but needs to be renamed):
Our Shrine to ANGER!
Destroy foolish Mali units and burn his stupid city to the ground.
Idiot Mansa is coming to re-settle the same spot: FOOL! (we've headed back to Berlin for some healing). Flow of Knights has dried up so we can take it easily. Replaceable Parts is in and Rifling will be ready in seven, at which point MAYHEM should ensue.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96651/ANGRY_KOREA_MAN_AD-1585.CivWarlordsSave
(Mainly because I'm a clown who moves the unit onto a hill on the next turn and loses it
)Mali's damned Knights made me ANGRY and I lost some stupid units that weren't ANGRY enough to be KOREA FIGHTERS!
I'll be back for you later...with a special something for your Knights:
The ANGRY KOREA CANNON was created (but needs to be renamed):
Our Shrine to ANGER!
Destroy foolish Mali units and burn his stupid city to the ground.
Idiot Mansa is coming to re-settle the same spot: FOOL! (we've headed back to Berlin for some healing). Flow of Knights has dried up so we can take it easily. Replaceable Parts is in and Rifling will be ready in seven, at which point MAYHEM should ensue.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96651/ANGRY_KOREA_MAN_AD-1585.CivWarlordsSave
Swiss Pauli
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,805
The nets at Illinois got pillaged: a workboat is being trained down the coast to replace them. I've reassigned scientists there after Roosy caught me on the hop with his Knight.
The army's in Berlin. I'd switch off research after Rifling is learnt for some upgrading of elite LBs and Hwacha. Then go hurt Mali. Longer term, I think Hannibal should pay for his indiscretions; his lands fit well with ours too...
Speaking of Berlin, I think it would make an ideal Globe/HE city. Food rich and hammer poor, it would make an ideal military whipping post. It should get Globe in any event for Draft abuse, so I've built a few theatres so that we can get started on it fairly soon. It's pretty unhappy: remember we're still in HR, so we the army moves out the anger will surge.
Seoul is taking a short break from military to build a bank now we have the Mahabodi. I removed Taj from the queue in Wonsan. May be it can go back in next as I just whipped a Knight there. Hyangan got it's archer upgraded to a longbow, but the loss of the missionary means no culture there yet. A worker is (carefully) building a road in its direction.
@Blake - were you playing in debug mode? I was checking the log to find the start date of the Mali war and saw the record of a trade between two civs we've not met...
The army's in Berlin. I'd switch off research after Rifling is learnt for some upgrading of elite LBs and Hwacha. Then go hurt Mali. Longer term, I think Hannibal should pay for his indiscretions; his lands fit well with ours too...
Speaking of Berlin, I think it would make an ideal Globe/HE city. Food rich and hammer poor, it would make an ideal military whipping post. It should get Globe in any event for Draft abuse, so I've built a few theatres so that we can get started on it fairly soon. It's pretty unhappy: remember we're still in HR, so we the army moves out the anger will surge.
Seoul is taking a short break from military to build a bank now we have the Mahabodi. I removed Taj from the queue in Wonsan. May be it can go back in next as I just whipped a Knight there. Hyangan got it's archer upgraded to a longbow, but the loss of the missionary means no culture there yet. A worker is (carefully) building a road in its direction.
@Blake - were you playing in debug mode? I was checking the log to find the start date of the Mali war and saw the record of a trade between two civs we've not met...
. I'm pretty much always using chipoltle mode. I just mentally filter out the messages. They're gone in later versions of BetterAI.
