Real-Life Civilization

Markets deliver what people want, basically by definition.

And I said Obama is obviously to the right of communists, but he's intent on the government directing as much as it possibly can, apparently on the the premise that decisions about what kind of health insurance to buy are too important to be left to individuals. He's so determined to help people he'll force them to do what he believes is best, even if they think otherwise.

Hell, somebody in his administration defended the banning of conventional incandescent light bulbs on the grounds that they were just preventing people from making "the wrong choices". Apparently freedom means being allowed to choose to do whatever the government thinks is right.

Long story short, him being in favor of mildly watered-down collectivism doesn't in any way make him right of center.
 
Anyway, I suppose I should bow out of that particular discussion; I'm new here, and in my experience political discussions rarely turn out well on Internet forums.
 
Anyway, I suppose I should bow out of that particular discussion; I'm new here, and in my experience political discussions rarely turn out well on Internet forums.

They are also not allowed other than in the Off Topic forum. Relating specific things in the real world to game civics and events passes muster in the game related forums. Side tracking into real world politics will get you, at best, a warning from the moderators. I suggest that you have a look at the forum rules. (The rules are in the drop down menu labeled "Community".)
 
Maybe I'll get a warning for this, but you mentioned markets delivering what people want, and the only time I used markets was in the term "market failure" which is an economic term.
It describes scenarios where markets fail to deliver best (optimal) outcomes. For example, "the tragedy of the commons," where everyone has access to something (say grazing lands or fish in the ocean) and while everyone collectively has an incentive not to over-graze or over fish (in some future no one gets to graze or gets fish if the resource is over-used), no individual has an incentive not to fish or graze (if I alone don't fish or graze, I lose out now, and my non-use alone isn't enough, so I don't fish or graze in the future either -- or even if me alone not participating IS enough, I still never get to fish or graze now or in the future). There can be other failures, like monopolies, or in health care, "it's impossible for me to shop for the best combination of cost and service because I'm currently having a heart attack and will take whatever medicine is closest available."

Socialized medicine is socialized, sure, but it's a center-of-the-economic-road socializing to any industrialized nation other than the states, because it actually REDUCES collective costs. Even right-wingers tend to like saving money.

Finally, if that is what he supports (I could not find a credible source on the subject), even it alone doesn't make him left. He's pro-business and pro-tax breaks for the well-off. He has made no attempt to alter the tax code on big business or capital gains. Did you know that despite making 18B in profits last year, AT&T paid -6.4% in taxes last year (negative! The were given more money by the gov't than they paid)? Obama has no plans to change that, and never did.
 
Markets deliver what people with money want, basically by definition.

Fixed that for you.

To not stay completely off topic: America is about the most adamant advocate of the Free Market civic, with many people getting panic attacks when someone even suggests maybe switching to Environmentalism or, even worse, State Property. Somebody think of all the money the corporations are making! I for one would be more worried about their government flirting with Police State, Nationhood and Theocracy in the past decades though.

Eh, at least it's not as bad as that time the Russian player switched out of State Property and let half his vassals break free. What was up with that?
 
Maybe I'll get a warning for this, but you mentioned markets delivering what people want, and the only time I used markets was in the term "market failure" which is an economic term.
It describes scenarios where markets fail to deliver best (optimal) outcomes. For example, "the tragedy of the commons," where everyone has access to something (say grazing lands or fish in the ocean) and while everyone collectively has an incentive not to over-graze or over fish (in some future no one gets to graze or gets fish if the resource is over-used), no individual has an incentive not to fish or graze (if I alone don't fish or graze, I lose out now, and my non-use alone isn't enough, so I don't fish or graze in the future either -- or even if me alone not participating IS enough, I still never get to fish or graze now or in the future). There can be other failures, like monopolies, or in health care, "it's impossible for me to shop for the best combination of cost and service because I'm currently having a heart attack and will take whatever medicine is closest available."

Socialized medicine is socialized, sure, but it's a center-of-the-economic-road socializing to any industrialized nation other than the states, because it actually REDUCES collective costs. Even right-wingers tend to like saving money.

Finally, if that is what he supports (I could not find a credible source on the subject), even it alone doesn't make him left. He's pro-business and pro-tax breaks for the well-off. He has made no attempt to alter the tax code on big business or capital gains. Did you know that despite making 18B in profits last year, AT&T paid -6.4% in taxes last year (negative! The were given more money by the gov't than they paid)? Obama has no plans to change that, and never did.

I don't doubt it; crony capitalism or corporatism has always been a feature of more collectivized governments until you go all the way to communism. The Italian Fascists were big on it. The Nazis were big fans of it; Hitler once noted "People keep asking me if I'm going to nationalize industries. Why would I, when I've nationalized the industrialists?"

You don't have to go to totalitarian levels to see it either; corporatism was standard practice during the New Deal. FDR literally said he wanted to give corporations a "seat at the table", so to speak. Instead of letting corporations compete openly in the market, as well as workers competing in the labor market, what FDR wanted was for these things to be hashed out behind closed doors, with an agreed-upon resolution. Instead of the market, he was literally (although I doubt he used the term) enabling cartels, both of labor and of production. Much of this was ruled unconstitutional, since it involved telling smaller businesses that they weren't allowed to produce more than so much of whatever they produced, and that they were legally barred from competing by selling cheaper than their competitors.

One of my favorite modern political writers is a guy named Jonah Goldberg, and he's noted before that he isn't so much pro-business or pro-corporation as he is pro-market; I have to say I'm the same way. Nor do I consider the Democrats or even some nakedly socialist parties in other countries to be exactly "anti-business". Businesses, especially larger corporations, often do quite well in socialist countries, assuming their assets aren't simply nationalized. If I had to guess, most people actually running a socialist country these days would probably say outright expropriation is bush-league socialism, amateur stuff fit only for banana republic types like Hugo Chavez or Fidel Castro. Modern socialists - successful socialists, that is, simply want a hand in how the corporations are operated.

They also seem to favor larger corporations over smaller businesses, I assume because it's easier to work with a smaller number of large entities rather than gazillions of smaller ones.

As for your first point - yes, there are such things as market failures. The tragedy of the commons is one, but then that's a fairly easily resolved situation. If it's an asset that simply has to be collectively owned, you can simply set limits on use of the resources in question. If it's something that can be privately owned, sell off whatever the government owns of it. If a business owns it then it tends to be in their interest to manage it well. Logging companies who actually own the land they log are of course going to replant after logging an area, because if they don't their land ends up being worthless to them.

Your reference to health care doesn't fit, though. Most health care is not delivered in an emergency situation. There is no market for emergency ambulance service, because as you say it's not possible to make sensible choices in an emergency situation like a heart attack. But health insurance is supposed to be something you choose beforehand, based on whatever priorities you yourself set: cost, coverage, etc. Same for a choice of doctor; outside of unforeseeable emergencies, you need to have your doctor picked out ahead of time.

As far as Obama not pushing for tax increases - he's done what he can as far as that goes. To be honest, he's concentrated more on structural alterations instead of fiddling around with taxes. If we define "insurance" as inherently being risk-priced, Obamacare has effectively eliminated actual health insurance, and replaced it with a third-party form of socialized medicine, where price is based on your income, not the risk you bring. It completely redefines how health care and health insurance works. He's basically given Congress he has no intention of enforcing immigration law, etc. and so forth. So no, he isn't tooling around with tax rates for the most part, or attempting to do much with firearms ownership, which is a really risky topic for Democrats outside of a few largely urban areas. He's involved more in structural changes that are intentionally chosen to be difficult to change back.

MODERATORS: I'm new here, and have no idea what the limits are around here, so if political discussion is a flat out no-go, let me know.
 
Fixed that for you.

To not stay completely off topic: America is about the most adamant advocate of the Free Market civic, with many people getting panic attacks when someone even suggests maybe switching to Environmentalism or, even worse, State Property. Somebody think of all the money the corporations are making! I for one would be more worried about their government flirting with Police State, Nationhood and Theocracy in the past decades though.

Eh, at least it's not as bad as that time the Russian player switched out of State Property and let half his vassals break free. What was up with that?

Police state isn't much of a real issue, although the whole NSA thing is a problem, as are some instances of police militarization, as well as politicization of some federal law enforcement. <coughcoughIRScoughcough>

Theocracy - no. Not at all.

Environmentalism - I'd say we're largely there, at least in some places. NY has apparently entirely banned fracking, and California is in the middle of a drought that's apparently entirely man-made due to restrictions on irrigation.

The whole ISIS thing seems on the money, although I'd say they're less an example of randomg Barbarian spearmen showing up and more like a barbarian quasi-civilization getting going, with a warmongering leader and a tendency to raze conquered cities, or at least destroy any Wonders they find.
 
Theocracy - no. Not at all.

Environmentalism - I'd say we're largely there, at least in some places. NY has apparently entirely banned fracking, and California is in the middle of a drought that's apparently entirely man-made due to restrictions on irrigation.

Okay, Organized Religion at least. You can't deny the looming threat of religious fundamentalists subverting the secular foundation of the United States.

Yeah no. The teeny tiny bit of regulation here and there does not constitute Environmentalism as the basis for the whole economic system.
 
That was a strange page to read. Can't do much more than scratch my head in bewilderment at people thinking Obama is left of centre, never mind borderline communist. May as well call Mao a leading capitalist.

One of my favourite quotes in Civilization 4 is of corporation. It's succinct yet profoundly accurate.
"Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility."
 
I don't doubt it; crony capitalism or corporatism has always been a feature of more collectivized governments until you go all the way to communism. The Italian Fascists were big on it. The Nazis were big fans of it; Hitler once noted "People keep asking me if I'm going to nationalize industries. Why would I, when I've nationalized the industrialists?"

You don't have to go to totalitarian levels to see it either; corporatism was standard practice during the New Deal. FDR literally said he wanted to give corporations a "seat at the table", so to speak. Instead of letting corporations compete openly in the market, as well as workers competing in the labor market, what FDR wanted was for these things to be hashed out behind closed doors, with an agreed-upon resolution. Instead of the market, he was literally (although I doubt he used the term) enabling cartels, both of labor and of production. Much of this was ruled unconstitutional, since it involved telling smaller businesses that they weren't allowed to produce more than so much of whatever they produced, and that they were legally barred from competing by selling cheaper than their competitors.

One of my favorite modern political writers is a guy named Jonah Goldberg, and he's noted before that he isn't so much pro-business or pro-corporation as he is pro-market; I have to say I'm the same way. Nor do I consider the Democrats or even some nakedly socialist parties in other countries to be exactly "anti-business". Businesses, especially larger corporations, often do quite well in socialist countries, assuming their assets aren't simply nationalized. If I had to guess, most people actually running a socialist country these days would probably say outright expropriation is bush-league socialism, amateur stuff fit only for banana republic types like Hugo Chavez or Fidel Castro. Modern socialists - successful socialists, that is, simply want a hand in how the corporations are operated.

They also seem to favor larger corporations over smaller businesses, I assume because it's easier to work with a smaller number of large entities rather than gazillions of smaller ones.

As for your first point - yes, there are such things as market failures. The tragedy of the commons is one, but then that's a fairly easily resolved situation. If it's an asset that simply has to be collectively owned, you can simply set limits on use of the resources in question. If it's something that can be privately owned, sell off whatever the government owns of it. If a business owns it then it tends to be in their interest to manage it well. Logging companies who actually own the land they log are of course going to replant after logging an area, because if they don't their land ends up being worthless to them.

Your reference to health care doesn't fit, though. Most health care is not delivered in an emergency situation. There is no market for emergency ambulance service, because as you say it's not possible to make sensible choices in an emergency situation like a heart attack. But health insurance is supposed to be something you choose beforehand, based on whatever priorities you yourself set: cost, coverage, etc. Same for a choice of doctor; outside of unforeseeable emergencies, you need to have your doctor picked out ahead of time.

As far as Obama not pushing for tax increases - he's done what he can as far as that goes. To be honest, he's concentrated more on structural alterations instead of fiddling around with taxes. If we define "insurance" as inherently being risk-priced, Obamacare has effectively eliminated actual health insurance, and replaced it with a third-party form of socialized medicine, where price is based on your income, not the risk you bring. It completely redefines how health care and health insurance works. He's basically given Congress he has no intention of enforcing immigration law, etc. and so forth. So no, he isn't tooling around with tax rates for the most part, or attempting to do much with firearms ownership, which is a really risky topic for Democrats outside of a few largely urban areas. He's involved more in structural changes that are intentionally chosen to be difficult to change back.

MODERATORS: I'm new here, and have no idea what the limits are around here, so if political discussion is a flat out no-go, let me know.

That was a well-written reply. I don't think I have much of anything I can say in rebuttal to that. All I can really do is reiterate that I think the authoritarian is on the money or slightly low (he still supports free religion and free speech... well, free-but-watched-and-mentioning-terror-could-end-with-you-in-prison, and his extra-judicial killing has nothing to do with eliminating political rivals cough*Putin*cough or other perceived threats to his power, so it's not like he's anywhere near top-of-authoritarian-chart Stalin).

Italian and national socialists indeed used the big corporations to achieve their "socialist" aims. The German war machine was private enterprise through and through, supported with slaves and massive government contracts. This kind of gov't supported corporate-socialism can make very powerful private industry, producing whatever the gov't wants since it is the one tasking the enterprise with the bulk of its production. I think part of why it was so effective economically for the nation, though, was because of that inherent nationalism, which leans away from things like off-shoring corporate hq's to avoid taxation and the like. Lots of jobs, the gov't gets what it wants, AND the corporation pays taxes. Sounds like wins all around.

Finally, as per the choice on health insurance, I do understand the argument towards freedom of choice, and, using political compass' definition (the source of that graph) I am strongly libertarian (though left-wing economically) [for clarity, that graph is right/left is economics, up down is authoritarian/libertarian]. I do think that freedom should be maintained when possible, but if a man works for minimum wage (and thus presumably cannot afford health insurance), does he deserve to die when we have the technology to save him? That's a lot of freedom lost (all future freedom). I am sure you probably think we should save the man if we can help him without crazy costs (one-time payment for a heart attack say, instead of perhaps a 1/1,000,000,000 disease with only $10k/day pills to treat and not actually fix), but costs that he is unable to pay, and thus that would mean that we essentially only disagree on the degree to which the taxpayer should foot the bill. Based on things I've learned recently, the amount of money he might still pay in future tax years (although since this is minimum wage, that's next-to-nothing) and more importantly the cost to replace workers, it could easily be economically beneficial to save him. The last pont about replacement of workers is important, as walmart spends almost a years wages to find a replacement worker somehow (something I learned-but-can't-really-wrap-my-head-around doing my business project on Costco). Walmart would probably be evenly off paying for that man's treatment outright! Note that to get to those numbers, that includes advertising for position, having it go through HR (bureacratic losses), lost productivity in the interim, over-time to cover missing worker's tasks, and interviewing candidates.
 
Lots of jobs, the gov't gets what it wants, AND the corporation pays taxes. Sounds like wins all around.

Except for the millions and millions of people forced to work themselves to death in concentration camps if they don't get killed right away. But yeah, for the government and the corporations it works out really well I suppose.
 
Except for the millions and millions of people forced to work themselves to death in concentration camps if they don't get killed right away. But yeah, for the government and the corporations it works out really well I suppose.

Yeah, there was some major sarcasm in my wins all around comment. Truly, ignoring the obvious moral implications, it's not even an economic win. Slave labour and mass execution of citizens is not even economically defensible. 99% of people can achieve more in their lifetime if not a slave, and 100% of people can achieve more if not dead.
 
Obama owns shares in companies--he makes a very odd communist.

The whole concept of private health insurance makes no sense, in fact, but the power of the insurance lobby and the morons in the Republican party ensure there is no sensible reform. Private health insurance is basically a losing situation for everyone involved except the people who own and run the insurance companies. Obamacare represents a compromise which allows them to continue their robbery of the general population.

Obama is not trying to have the US adopt State Property. He is retaining Free Market with fracking, investor protections, and non-regulation of the banking system.

And he is on the authoritarian and right side of the Political Compass graph. He's certainly much further from the left-anarchists at the far bottom left corner than he is from the Republicans.
 
I don't see how this is real life civ.

Remember the time when that one guy gave an oil resource to Creative Constructions instead of the navy? Good times
 
Obama owns shares in companies--he makes a very odd communist.

To be fair, I think even Karl Marx himself owned some stocks.

Anyway, America in general is playing pretty inconsistently. They completed the Apollo Program more than 40 turns ago and still haven't built a single spaceship part even though they are almost at the end of the tech tree, in fact I think Fusion is the only tech still missing. Instead they waste a whole lot of money on unit maintenance with their armies spread around the entire globe, fighting a little here and there but not making any significant conquests. Diplo is a crapshot too and they seem to be eying a culture victory as well. They really gotta make up their mind about what victory to pursue, but then again I think at this point they might as well just power through the final 35 or so turns and win by time. Just keep the other civs weak and at each others' throats and when someone gets too uppity nuke them to hell, that should do the job.
 
The US player is obviously a noob, he's not even playing to win, just mucking around. China's going to pass him if he doesn't win soon :eek:
 
The US player is obviously a noob, he's not even playing to win, just mucking around. China's going to pass him if he doesn't win soon :eek:

China doesn't have as many nukes I think and barely a navy to speak of. A couple nukes on their biggest coastal cities followed by razing them with Navy SEALs should knock 'em down. But then maybe Russia would use that opportunity to use their own ICBM stockpile while the American player has his back turned, hmmmmmmm.
 
China has an estimated 180 active nuclear weapons, ranging from 400kt (~26x as powerful as hiroshima) to 4mt (~260x as powerful as hiroshima). A lot of these are icbm's, though the bulk are bombs (as in dropped by bombers) but also include submarine-launched ballistic missiles (essentially civ's tactical nukes). While that pales in comparison to Russia or the US's nuclear stockpiles of of 2300 and growing and 1920 respectively (both the us and russia have thousands more that are not currently active).

While the US could launch a first strike on Chinese nuclear facilities, it would be improbable that the US could stop all of china's nuclear devices, and would inevitably suffer nuclear retaliation, though it would likely be survivable, as a nation. In this scenario, it is probable that India would win the time victory.

In real life it would be difficult to predict the outcome of such an event. Nuclear holocaust? MAD principles dominating the interactions of world leaders? Declarations of war against the US from a coalition of countries? Other countries being too afraid of nuclear destruction to consider war against the US? I would predict too much fear for war, and MAD-principles winning-out, but the world would almost certainly stop trade with the US. But I'm far from certain of that outcome.
 
America should just build SDI, and I think there's still plenty of Bomb Shelters left in many cities from the Cold War, so a few nukes wouldn't do too much damage.
 
Imp. Knoedel said:
China doesn't have as many nukes I think and barely a navy to speak of.

But actually using those nukes on China is not a possibility. The trade relationship between the US and China is simply too valuable. Nuking China would mean was less gold from trade routes and no excess resource trades for gold, forcing the US to dial back the culture and espionage sliders (already obviously running the science slider at 0%--how long is it taking us to research fusion again?). That means unhappiness and vulnerability to annoying Arab and Persian spies.

traius said:
While the US could launch a first strike on Chinese nuclear facilities, it would be improbable that the US could stop all of china's nuclear devices, and would inevitably suffer nuclear retaliation, though it would likely be survivable, as a nation. In this scenario, it is probable that India would win the time victory.

It's completely unthinkable in the first place. I doubt geopolitics would be particularly relevant in the aftermath of a full-scale US nuclear first strike on China. Maybe it wouldn't be enough to destroy global civilization.
 
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