Realism Invictus

Regarding AP resolutions, for some reason, I never got some. Sometimes, there are wars between bros/sisters in faiths and the resolution to end that war doesn't even pop up. In fact, in all my games, there are never any resolutions. I wonder if the AP is bugged....I couldn't even bring my partners in faiths against a pagan...?

It's been like this as long as I can remember. I'm pretty sure it was bugged in vanilla.

It's really frustrating when you're at war with another religious group and no resolutions come up that pertain to your enemy.

Regardless of that, my question is the following: how people find ways to counter archers early in the game with Raging Barbs?
And assumes no horses are around or constantly pillaged.

I usually always rush for archery. Not to deal with barbarians, but to invade a couple of my neighbours early on to steal their great starting locations.

I always have archers so I really don't have any problems. I usually counter barbarians by fortifying my important resources and if necessary I'll attack a barb archer with a mixed stack of 3-4 archers and militia, but I do my best to avoid that.

Hi All,

I'm at that time reworking the unit roster. It will be a very big update, believe me. First part is already committed (non cav units). It's the easiest part and it took me a whole week to do.
Next step is the Cavalry part. Big changes there ! Players will have to rethink their ways of doing with cavalry units. I hope it will be finished by the end of the week.

SVN users will have a preview of this major update which will be added in the next patch.

Good game !

Sounds awesome! Can't wait!
 
Hi All,

I'm at that time reworking the unit roster. It will be a very big update, believe me. First part is already committed (non cav units). It's the easiest part and it took me a whole week to do.
Next step is the Cavalry part. Big changes there ! Players will have to rethink their ways of doing with cavalry units. I hope it will be finished by the end of the week.

SVN users will have a preview of this major update which will be added in the next patch.

Good game !

Hi,

i had a look at the svn, and so far it looks promising and the changes are in the right direction in my opinion. So, thank you! :)

However, I'd like to propose a further change:

At the moment, archer gets bonus against huntsman only when attacking. But I think, the archer should get the bonus both while attacking and defending. Obviously, the archer should have the upper hand against the huntman which carries a light/no armour, which provides no protection from arrows and whose slings have less range than archers' bows. But also there is a reason in the aspect of gameplay: In the current system, an army on foot in classical ages will be attacked and defeated by an army with the same number of pure huntsman. Because there is nothing stronger than an attacking huntsman, there is also no terrain that will protect you from the huntsman. By giving the archer such bonus, the army with a bunch of archer would be protected against such an assault.
 
Hi,

i had a look at the svn, and so far it looks promising and the changes are in the right direction in my opinion. So, thank you! :)

However, I'd like to propose a further change:

At the moment, archer gets bonus against huntsman only when attacking. But I think, the archer should get the bonus both while attacking and defending. Obviously, the archer should have the upper hand against the huntman which carries a light/no armour, which provides no protection from arrows and whose slings have less range than archers' bows. But also there is a reason in the aspect of gameplay: In the current system, an army on foot in classical ages will be attacked and defeated by an army with the same number of pure huntsman. Because there is nothing stronger than an attacking huntsman, there is also no terrain that will protect you from the huntsman. By giving the archer such bonus, the army with a bunch of archer would be protected against such an assault.

I'd argue that the huntsman is fast enough to blitz the archers and run them down on the attack, but its not really a meaningful statement since either could beat the other depending on a million scenarios. Keep that in mind when reading the rest. Civilization will never be a perfect simulation for real unit balance...

There is a big difference between light and no armor. Many modern theorists have underestimated the value of cloth armor as a legitimate protection. Since the basic archer is referring to cheap units with primitive bows, cloth armor and wicker shields would go far to protect the unit from a barrage of arrows. Across northern africa, and egypt heavy cloth robes were worn by various skirmishers and light units to protect them from stray arrows, and light shields like those wicker shields the persians used were likely used primarily as a defense against arrows, since it was found that they couldn't stand up to melee. Arrows were probably the most common and deadly threat ancient armies had to contend with. It took relatively little training to fire a primitive bow, and it allowed lesser soldiers an opportunity to kill a better-trained foe without entering melee.
Skirmishers were a different unit altogether then archers. Melee was not a foreign concept to them, and generally they likely were better equipped to enter melee then archers were. Among their greatest advantages were their speed. Since they were lightly equipped they could run down other soldiers, including archers, and they were economically effective against heavier units for a very long time frame. Even the spartans were eventually overcome by 'huntsmen'. as quoted by a quote from wiki on peltists.
"They (the Spartan hoplites) themselves were held up by the weapons shot at them from both flanks by the light troops. Though they (the hoplites) drove back the light troops at any point in which they ran in and approached too closely, they (the light troops) still fought back even in retreat, since they had no heavy equipment and could easily outdistance their pursuers over ground where, since the place had been uninhabited until then, the going was rough and difficult."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltast
continuing the quote further...
"When fighting other types of light troops, peltasts were able to close more aggressively in melee as they had the advantage of possessing shields, swords, and helmets."
Now, looking back at our huntsman, most the unit art includes shields, and some of those who don't actually should have shields like the greek peltist. Shields are a huge boon vs. arrows. These light units almost all include light armor and helmets which were likely designed primarily as a defense against arrows. As I mentioned, arrows were their primary threat, and primitive ones didn't pack a lot of oomph, though some civilizations have exceptions.

So, what I see is a unit that can't hold up to a continuous barrage of arrows, but does have shields, light armor, speed, and melee capability. All adding up to a net advantage for the huntsman when attacking an archer caught on flat ground. On the defense, the huntsman's light armor gives him a disadvantage as they will melt faster then heavier infantry.

Note. Here's an interesting defense for cloth armor. Sharpen your best knife, and place a thick cloth on a soft surface. Now, try slashing that cloth open. Its not easy. Piercing cloth is much easier, but compared to the force needed to penetrate skin, its a world of difference. Arrows will pierce cloth, but not at the range they could against an unarmored soldier, and the cloth will serve to lessen the blow. Serving to turn what would-have-been a fatal blow into a flesh wound. Even as heavier armors were pciked up, cloth armor never went away. Under chain and plate, was cloth, serving a great role in dampening otherwise fatal blows.

Heres another interesting note. Tests with the infamous bodkin arrow found that it was indeed a fantastic counter to chainmail, but it struggled against cloth. Regular arrows were actually better. Since during the time of the heavier bows, you'd find the valuable soldiers wearing composite armors, even specialized arrows were only effective en-masse, and the armor of the time periods always served to protect the user from arrows quite well. As I mentioned before, due to the price of the armor, just damaging it was a net win in the long run.
This is a long beaten debate thats always raging over historic forums, but, ultimately, if it wasn't true, why would the slow, cumbersome muskets come to replace the longbow?
 
So, what I see is a unit that can't hold up to a continuous barrage of arrows, but does have shields, light armor, speed, and melee capability. All adding up to a net advantage for the huntsman when attacking an archer caught on flat ground. On the defense, the huntsman's light armor gives him a disadvantage as they will melt faster then heavier infantry.

Agreed.

Among their greatest advantages were their speed. Since they were lightly equipped they could run down other soldiers, including archers, and they were economically effective against heavier units for a very long time frame. Even the spartans were eventually overcome by 'huntsmen'. as quoted by a quote from wiki on peltists.

I'd argue that the huntsmen and similar units should have a withdrawal chance, like the skirmisher unit.

There is currently no "designated" anti-archer unit, but we're considering giving a bonus vs archers to shield-and-spear unit line.

Not sure if you're taking about attack, defence, or both... IMO, I think it's a bit impractical to give militia an attack bonus vs. archers. I'd agree with a defensive bonus tho.

Huntsmen with an added withdrawal chance plus a defensive buff to militia vs. archers could probably solve the whole "dealing with early barbarian archers" problem. You wouldn't have to sacrifice as many units and between the two (militia & huntsmen) you should be able to properly attack/defend against any archers.

For that time period archers should be somewhat of a pain to counter unless you have a bit of a diverse "army."
 
@ teks: A nice counterargument, supported by many historical facts. However we still have a few problems:

1. most of the real armies brought archers to the battlefield with them. So the archer should be effective at battlefield, which should be simulated in the civilization game somehow. (collateral damage?)

2. There were many civilizations that valued archery greatly. Many of them also developed powerful bows. so why should archers be strictly defensive units, which only have the purpose of guarding cities?

3. If the huntsman is allowed to have no countering units, then assembling an all-huntsman army would be the most effective way to fight ordinary armies, which is a bit dull and reducing the strategical depth of the game. Why producing the heavy swordsmen, instead of the cheap and fast-moving huntsmen, right? Your Swordsmen will be prey for opponent huntsmen anyway.
 
Regardless of that, my question is the following: how people find ways to counter archers early in the game with Raging Barbs?
And assumes no horses are around or constantly pillaged.

I use archers that have been already promoted along the pacification line (the anti barbarian line) on flat land (+ a warrior for the aid), and "regular" archers on forests and hills. It's usually enough. I always beeline archery and improve "flat" lands once i have a couple of "pacifiers" and only when the flat land is really worth it :-)
I also try to grab roads asap to ease my fight against barbarians.
I play immortal on random maps by the way
I just started a new game with Russia, their unique improvement is unbelievably nice when used with all the "buildings" !!!
 
Civilizations that have had powerful archers, have powerful archer units. They don't really need anything more. Those units are already upgraded beyond the vanilla throwaway archer unit. There are also civilizations that didn't use archers and were very successful against those who did. For example, the Greeks, who used hoplites and peltists, had few problems with persian bows.

An all-huntsman army would be slaughtered by cavalry on the attack, or, ironically, archers on the defense. Huntsmen are also only good when attacking. The effectiveness of huntsmen depends on flat ground. If they are caught on the hills, it spells trouble. They are far from an end-all unit.

Archers do counter huntsmen. Huntsmen have no attack bonus vs. archers, only a +1 strength. This is easily overcome on hills where archers get a massive defensive bonus. Here on in the archer will be cheaper, stronger defensively, and stronger offensively.

I find huntsmen pretty annoying, they even hurt my homoioi pretty good, even on hills. I don't use archers much, but there are times I wish I had more of them. I normally just defend against skirmishers with a few skirmishers of my own.
 
I tested out the odds for huntsmen vs. archers for better perspective.
On open ground, the huntsman has a 79% survival chance vs. archers with a 73% chance to kill the archer on the attack.
If the archer is on a tile with a forest or a hill the odds go down to a 40% chance of survival, with a 20% chance of killing the archer.
The archer also has a first strike which means he will take less damage on average after the battle is over provided he wins.

Now to turn the tables...
Archers have an 83% chance to kill a huntsman on open ground, a 73% chance to kill a huntsman on a hill, and a 40% chance to kill a huntsman in the forest while attacking.
The archer will take less damage provided he wins, but can't withdraw if hes gonna lose.

Fortify bonuses, aid, and forested hills were not taken into account.

Huntsmen are hard countered by medium cavalry, and to a lesser extend light cavalry.
Medium cavalry beat huntsmen at 99% odds on flat ground, Light cavalry at 91%
Medium cavalry beat huntsman at 96% offs on a hill, light cavalry at 77% (73% to kill)
Medium cavalry beat huntsman at 80% odds in forest(77% chance to kill), light cavalry at 57%(50% chance to kill)
Later on most things will hard counter huntsmen on the attack...

Turning the tables...
huntsmen have 28% odds vs both light and medium horses with a 10% chance to kill when they are attacking.

Light/medium cavalry also have an additional movement point furthering their ability to counter large skirmisher stacks. If huntsmen are to be protected archers would be required vs. light cavalry, and spearmen vs. medium/heavy cavalry.

NOTE: By medium cavalry I am not referring to the medieval era unit horse archers upgrade to. I am refering to the medium variant of the horse archer which is an entirely different unit in its own right with a completely different set of bonuses/maluses. In this case I used the greek horse archer to represent medium cavalry.
 
I tried to register in Realism Invictus Forum to do this question, but activation doesn't work, I never receive the email for activation, and tested it with two different email adresses

The question is about the magis. They can spread zoroastrianism in my cities, but not in other civilization's cities, the icon to spread religion doesn't appear (and they aren't Theocracies). Is that deliberate, is it needed something, or is it a bug?
 
In the latest revision (4678) the PublicMaps folder is empty. To be able to play the world maps or the excellent map scripts previously available (I really like Commanding Heights) I have to manually copy them from an older version.

Intended or removed by mistake?
 
I tried to register in Realism Invictus Forum to do this question, but activation doesn't work, I never receive the email for activation, and tested it with two different email adresses
I suspected something was up. It looks like gmail is stomping on the outbound emails with its anti-spam boots. I have sent a report to Gmail asking them to resolve the issue.

In the meantime, I think that I have activated your account for you.

-Josh
 
On open ground, the huntsman has a 79% survival chance vs. archers with a 73% chance to kill the archer on the attack.
If the archer is on a tile with a forest or a hill the odds go down to a 40% chance of survival, with a 20% chance of killing the archer.

this is no longer accurate, becaause the new huntsman will negate the defensive bonuses of hills and forest or jungle. So an archer will get only its own +25% defensive bonus while defending against a huntsman, which mean 3,75 vs 4,00 in favour of the huntsman.

Huntsmen are hard countered by medium cavalry, and to a lesser extend light cavalry.
Medium cavalry beat huntsmen at 99% odds on flat ground, Light cavalry at 91%
Medium cavalry beat huntsman at 96% offs on a hill, light cavalry at 77% (73% to kill)
Medium cavalry beat huntsman at 80% odds in forest(77% chance to kill), light cavalry at 57%(50% chance to kill)
Later on most things will hard counter huntsmen on the attack...

There is no doubt, that huntsman is ineffective, when mounted units are present in the enemy army. But what I am discussing is: If you have two armies on foot (let's say, we are in a continent where horses aren't available) with equal sizes, the one who wears light armour, carrying primitive slings and javelins is superior (or about as good as when considering the aids) to the one, who has a decent mixture of light infantry, archers and the heavy infantry equipped with the most modern weaponry and armour available at the time.
 
Just to check in - decided to play some Civ again, and back to my fav mod... glad to see that you are still going, and YoHoHo we are up to 3.2, Christmas edition... very nice.

Looking forward to see what changed and what stayed the same. :goodjob:

---
edit: and a quick message. After install the game reported that my PC is not "up to speed" so it reduced the gfx to 1024x768 by default. Not sure why is that as the specs are 64bt Win 7; 8gb ram; 2500k Intel CPU and 1 GB 560 Nvidia card plus 256MB SSD. While not top spec any longer, it is fairly decent and I managed to play older versions of the game all the way. Not a biggie, and may be useful for newcomers to tone down their performance expectations, but just to post here to let you know. I have put the settings up so let's see how it works over next few days.
 
this is no longer accurate, becaause the new huntsman will negate the defensive bonuses of hills and forest or jungle. So an archer will get only its own +25% defensive bonus while defending against a huntsman, which mean 3,75 vs 4,00 in favour of the huntsman.



There is no doubt, that huntsman is ineffective, when mounted units are present in the enemy army. But what I am discussing is: If you have two armies on foot (let's say, we are in a continent where horses aren't available) with equal sizes, the one who wears light armour, carrying primitive slings and javelins is superior (or about as good as when considering the aids) to the one, who has a decent mixture of light infantry, archers and the heavy infantry equipped with the most modern weaponry and armour available at the time.

Wow is that in the SVN already? I didn't know they possibly could negate defensive bonuses. That creates all sorts of silly problems. Post the unit stats pls for me.
 
Just to check in - decided to play some Civ again, and back to my fav mod... glad to see that you are still going, and YoHoHo we are up to 3.2, Christmas edition... very nice.

Looking forward to see what changed and what stayed the same. :goodjob:

---
edit: and a quick message. After install the game reported that my PC is not "up to speed" so it reduced the gfx to 1024x768 by default. Not sure why is that as the specs are 64bt Win 7; 8gb ram; 2500k Intel CPU and 1 GB 560 Nvidia card plus 256MB SSD. While not top spec any longer, it is fairly decent and I managed to play older versions of the game all the way. Not a biggie, and may be useful for newcomers to tone down their performance expectations, but just to post here to let you know. I have put the settings up so let's see how it works over next few days.

This is an older game. You shouldn't trust what it tells you, and set everything manually. Theres a good chance the hardware your running didnt' exist when they programmed the auto settings.
 
I don't remember it being set by vanilla BTS, so I thought it may be one of the mods components. In case it is not related to the mod, well - just ignore. I am surprised that mod re-install triggered it though.
 
Spoiler :
......
---
edit: and a quick message. After install the game reported that my PC is not "up to speed" so it reduced the gfx to 1024x768 by default. Not sure why is that as the specs are 64bt Win 7; 8gb ram; 2500k Intel CPU and 1 GB 560 Nvidia card plus 256MB SSD. While not top spec any longer, it is fairly decent and I managed to play older versions of the game all the way. Not a biggie, and may be useful for newcomers to tone down their performance expectations, but just to post here to let you know. I have put the settings up so let's see how it works over next few days.

I have had this 'notice' pop-up aswell. I ignore the game telling me that..I have not had a noticeable problems/anomalies etc...

Here are my specs aswell....Intel(R) Core i7-3770 CPU @3.90GHz, 16.0 GB, 64-bit OS, GeForce GTX 480, Graphics clock 700MHz, Processor clock 1401MHz.:badcomp:
 
I suspected something was up. It looks like gmail is stomping on the outbound emails with its anti-spam boots. I have sent a report to Gmail asking them to resolve the issue.

In the meantime, I think that I have activated your account for you.

-Josh

Thanks, Josh
 
After install the game reported that my PC is not "up to speed" so it reduced the gfx to 1024x768 by default. Not sure why is that as the specs are 64bt Win 7; 8gb ram; 2500k Intel CPU and 1 GB 560 Nvidia card plus 256MB SSD. While not top spec any longer, it is fairly decent and I managed to play older versions of the game all the way. Not a biggie, and may be useful for newcomers to tone down their performance expectations, but just to post here to let you know. I have put the settings up so let's see how it works over next few days.

I don't remember it being set by vanilla BTS, so I thought it may be one of the mods components. In case it is not related to the mod, well - just ignore. I am surprised that mod re-install triggered it though.

I have had this 'notice' pop-up aswell. I ignore the game telling me that..I have not had a noticeable problems/anomalies etc...

Here are my specs aswell....Intel(R) Core i7-3770 CPU @3.90GHz, 16.0 GB, 64-bit OS, GeForce GTX 480, Graphics clock 700MHz, Processor clock 1401MHz.:badcomp:

Also, the reason the mod changes your graphics settings and such (which does not normally happen when you change mods) is that you have used more than 3 modder options (those things that show up in the regular game's Options dialog - you've addd something in the neighborhood of 6 past the PLAYEROPTION_MODDER_3 which is normally the last in the CIV4PlayerOptionInfos.xml file). The settings for these are not stored in the save game or ini file. They are stored in your user profile (which is a binary file of unknown format handled by the .exe, not the DLL). If the number of them which is stored in the profile does not match the number the game is using then it considers the profile to be invalid and wipes it out, replacing it with one it generates with some default settings (like, typically, a resolution of 1024x786 or something like that, and changing your sound to Mono) and the newly required number of options. And then. of course, when you switch to some other mod, or play without one, that newly adjust profile has the wrong number of options in it again so it wipes out your option settings again.

I figured this out back when Caveman 2 Cosmos added additional modder options (which have have been removed, largely because of this issue).

This issue has been addressed in r4679 and will be part of 3.2.1. The excess player options (which came straight of out the Advanced Automations merge) were removed so that the profile is once again compatible with the base game.

I also made Advanced Automations optional while I was at it.

You really need to implement the versions of the sentry missions that only wake up for unit of specified domains. I am really tired of, for example, having a galley wake up so that it can attack a revolting slave because it can't do it. Really. There is nothing a galley can do to a land unit. It is just incredibly irritating, especially since just about every other mod has this function by now.

Fixed in r4680.

-Josh
 
Back
Top Bottom