Realism Invictus

AbsintheRed · May 30, 2014

Some quick feedback:
I noticed that the Rocky Island terrain feature yields one more food then the "normal" Island terrain feature.
I guess it's a mistake, and should be the other way around. If it's intended though, can you give me the logic behind it?

Forts provide luxury resources even before you are able to build plantations (before the research of Irrigation Systems or Peasant Servitude).
Actually it's the same if you found cities on the resource plot: you are able to exploit this and get those juicy luxuries before the appropriate techs.
Granted that in most cases you won't get the happiness bonus until the appropriate building, which is usually also with a later tech. Still, in some cases this is not true, and this mistake gives an unwanted advantage..

I guess the Crusades scenario is still unplayable.. Any plans on fixing it in fairly soon?
Also, while checking I noticed Hungary isn't among the playable nations in the scenario. Mistake/oversight?
Ohh, and I noticed Bela IV in the civilopedia, yet he is not tied into Hungary, only to the Crusader Kingdoms...

Babri · May 30, 2014

burebeesta said:
Aside from that, i was thinking that you should be able to use a Great Prophet to spread your religion to another empire (which would be historically accurate) the same way you can use you Great Spy to conduct a mission.

Another thing I was thinking about is that the whole "Leaders" thing doesnt make much sense. Its really strange to meet Hitler of Germany, or Victoria of England in the prehistoric eras. its like these leaders are immortal. I doesnt make any sense at all. It would be much better instead if you would be able to chose only the civ. Leaders (with their specific traits) should appear at the specific time in the history they belong. I know its alot to change and might be hard to implement, but still. What if leaders would be some kind of GP? What if rulers with different traits would appear at different periods in the game? Its so boring and easy to just chose some traits from the very beginning. What if these traits would change over time?
Anyways, thanks for this mod, its really the best on the market!

Personally I really like the Civ 5 approach of religion where you need great prophets to found religion & they can also be used to spread it, build shrines or enhance your religion with extra bonuses.

Regarding mortal leaders, won't it go completely against civ philosophy? I mean sure having mortal leaders would make a great sense for a grand strategy like Europa universalis IV, but not for a civ game.

burebeesta said:
Ah, just remembered another thing. I always play without tech transfer, because i find it unrealistic and a huge factor of unbalance in the game. All leaders who have the charismatic trait, not to speak of the politician trait, have a huge advantage, and by huge i mean game changing, over the others, especially on higher difficulty, where is so hard to build relations. The isolationist leaders are actually unplayable, at emperor or higher, with tech transfer. I will always lag behind real bad. So its a good thing you can uncheck tech transfer. In my opinion it should be replaced with something more realistic and more balanced.

I think tech transfer should be changed a bit. Even without open borders you should get a small % bonus for having an advanced neighbor. Then if you have some trade routes with your neighbour (which requires open borders) you'll gain further tech bonus. So you would actually need to think about it rather than spamming open borders with every fairly advanced civ.

Sent from my One V using Tapatalk

AbsintheRed · May 31, 2014

Seconded
I love the idea of tech transfer instead of tech trading, but it's still too much of a difference on higher difficulty levels.
You should get about third or half of the tech transfer bonus even without open borders, if you have a more advanced neighbour

EDIT: I would also consider adding a delay, in order to avoid speeding up global tech progress too much
Something along the lines that there is no tech transfer at all for 10 turns after the tech discovery

EDIT2: It should work pretty well combined:
Without open borders: no tech transfer in the first x turns after discovery date, y% tech transfer after the x turns passed
With open borders: y% tech transfer in the first x turns, 2y% tech transfer after the x turns passed

burebeesta · May 31, 2014

@ Babri: why should mortal leaders go against civ philosophy? On the contrary, and especially in the case of this mod, i think it would go a long way in the right direction. Isnt it just plain wrong to play as Hitler from the prehistoric to the modern era? It really breaks the logic of the game. I mean everything evolves, units, buildings, civics, but the leader remains the same. The moment you found your first city, a window with a genealogical tree should pop up, and tell you that someone is the ruler of you new founded nation. You should be announced when he dies and when his son gets his throne.

I totally agree with you on the matter of tech transfer. Having open borders with a very distant civ you dont really have no land borders with should get you that kind of huge research bonus. Having trade routes with a city should provide you some bonus for researching a specific tech that should be proportional with the amount of gold you get from that city. But this should be a small bonus, not 50 or 25%. This is a ridiculously huge bonus especially in the begining, when you are struggling to get things going. And if you are a isolationist leader, you are ed. Plain and simple. Its impossible to win a game with tech transfer playing any isolationist leader.

Ahnarras · Jun 1, 2014

Concerning the raging barbs: they are pretty good, forcing you to defend yourself in early game. You have less ressource to build your empire, and i find it's better that way. The only problem is the way they are generated: if you are in the middle of the continent, you are surrouded and will have to fight really hard. If you are on a coast, with a mountain on a side or stuff like that, you will barely notice them.

Concerning tech transfer: it really depends on the number of civ you are playing. I'm playing the huge world map, and always have it disabled. When i had it enabled, i had basically the whole tech tree in blue :/
But on a smaller map, with only 10-15 civ, some on others continents, i guess it's a way better system.

Concerning leader: the fact that they stay alive all game never troubled me, it's how the game work. What puzzled me, as an old civ III player, was the clothing: a tie in the classic age looks weird. I was a fan of the civ III way of handling this: the picture of the leader evolved with time, they started all with beast fur. Seeing Cesar with a tie was still a bit weird, but it was in the modern age, so less troubling

Not sure if that could be done in R:I....
Another option i saw on a civ IV mod was evolving trait: you start with far less trait, maybe just one or even none, and you could "win" a new one (when reaching a new age for exemple). The trait was random, and could be influence by the civic you are in, your action, your empire... pretty much like random event are generated. And it could be positive or negative trait.

No more "i want to make a lot of war, let's go for an agressive leader" but more "i will pick the leader i like, and will adapt my game according to the trait he will win during the game".

krasny · Jun 1, 2014

I have been playing RI on monarch after a long absence since 3.1.

After facing the Arabs who poured wave after wave of units at me and the Nazis, who did the same, I am wondering, does RI cheat on monarch?

Thanks.

Hian the Frog · Jun 1, 2014

AbsintheRed said:
Some quick feedback:
I noticed that the Rocky Island terrain feature yields one more food then the "normal" Island terrain feature.
I guess it's a mistake, and should be the other way around. If it's intended though, can you give me the logic behind it?

Yes. It is intended.
Rocky Island is a feature allowed in our scenario only - at least until now.

AbsintheRed said:
Forts provide luxury resources even before you are able to build plantations (before the research of Irrigation Systems or Peasant Servitude).
Actually it's the same if you found cities on the resource plot: you are able to exploit this and get those juicy luxuries before the appropriate techs.
Granted that in most cases you won't get the happiness bonus until the appropriate building, which is usually also with a later tech. Still, in some cases this is not true, and this mistake gives an unwanted advantage..

You're right on one point: it gives you the wanted resource.
OTOH, you won't have the bonus (commerce, food, production).

We know about this "problem". This is not a priority in our mind as in most case you still need a building to make it interesting.
Maybe one day - if we find time - we will update this. Maybe...

AbsintheRed said:
I guess the Crusades scenario is still unplayable.. Any plans on fixing it in fairly soon?
Also, while checking I noticed Hungary isn't among the playable nations in the scenario. Mistake/oversight?
Ohh, and I noticed Bela IV in the civilopedia, yet he is not tied into Hungary, only to the Crusader Kingdoms...

Crusades scenario is broken. Our last changes make it unplayable until we clean it.

Hungary will stay unplayable. There's already a lot (too many ?) european civs. If we decide to add another platable civ it will probably be a non-european civ.

About Bela IV. It's not important as Hungary is unplayable.

AbsintheRed · Jun 1, 2014

Hian the Frog said:
Crusades scenario is broken. Our last changes make it unplayable until we clean it.

Hungary will stay unplayable. There's already a lot (too many ?) european civs. If we decide to add another platable civ it will probably be a non-european civ.

About Bela IV. It's not important as Hungary is unplayable.

Huhh, I don't get this
There are a lot of very minor civs, all of them shown as playable on the scenario startup.
On the other hand, Hungary was at the height of her power during the crusades
One of the top European powers in the 12-14th centuries
Flanders, Ireland, Scotland, Lorraine, Sicily, Wales, Serbia and even Austria or Portugal were all minor players compared to Hungary during that time
Not to even mention the ones like Principality of Creta, Republic of Pisa, or the Duchy of Aquitaine...

EDIT:This is in the crusades map setup file, in the latest svn version:

Spoiler :

I notice that it's currently set to "PlayableCiv=0"
But are you sure Hungary was originally meant to be unplayable?

Hian the Frog · Jun 2, 2014

AbsintheRed said:
But are you sure Hungary was originally meant to be unplayable?

Yes. I am.

Hungary is playable in that scenario. OTOH, you can't play it on a random map.

Have a look to the pedia. You can select the playable civs and the others.

I know it's a pity to not have it playable. Hungary is one of the very well built minor (close to be playable). Meanwhile, there's still some job to do to make it fully playable. Maybe one day... I hope.

AbsintheRed · Jun 2, 2014

Hian the Frog said:
Yes. I am.

Hungary is playable in that scenario. OTOH, you can't play it on a random map.

Have a look to the pedia. You can select the playable civs and the others.

Actually I was only talking about the crusades scenario all along
But glad to see we are on the same page about everything then, and it's a simple mistake in the scenario setup

I know it's a pity to not have it playable. Hungary is one of the very well built minor (close to be playable). Meanwhile, there's still some job to do to make it fully playable. Maybe one day... I hope.

I would love to have Hungary as a playable civ in RI, and would be very much willing to help in it.
We have more than enough art for it, that's for sure, based on Bakuel's work and avain's very detailed Hungary addon for his Varietas Delectat and Quot Capita mods
Actually I'm already in the process of making a historically correct city list for Hungary, and revising all the unique Great People names (for another mods).

EDIT: Checking through the art files in your latest SVN version, the units are already in a very good shape.
As a hungarian I can easily do all the text updates (revising hungarian unit/building/etc names, civilopedia entries, etc)
I guess the most obviously needed things are a second UB, an UI, and the leaders

EDIT2: First suggestions:
Distinctive buildings: Gesta Hungarorum (National Epic), Epic of Toldi/Toldi Trilogy (Heroic Epic), MTA/Magyar Tudományos Akadémia or Bibliotheca Corviniana (National University), Magyar Nemzeti Múzeum or Magyar Nemzeti Galéria (Hermitage), Országház (Parliament)
Unique/distinctive buildings: Turul Statue (Monument) or Lovarda (Stable) or Csárda (Tavern), whichever it is from these 3 options a boost to cavalry units would suit it well, while the Vegvar (Castle) could remain as it is now.
We have unique building art for MTA and Turul Statue (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=248462), and the Hungarian Parliament (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11618), the others don't need any special building art, especially if they will only be distinctive buildings.

Spoiler :

Unique improvement: I would go with a precious mine replacement
Hungarian gold and silver production was huge in the 13-15th centuries, at least to medieval european standards
Especially during the 14th century, under Charles I and Louis I: "One of the primary sources of power of his father was the wealth derived from the gold mines of east and northern Hungary. Eventually itself the gold production of mines reached the remarkable figure of 3,000 pounds (1,400 kg) of gold annually – one third of the total production of the world as then known, and five times as much as that of any other European state. The gold coin of Hungary (the Forint), of the same weight and purity of its namesake of Florence, was clear proof of the country's prosperity. The Hungarian and Florentine coins were the most valuable coins of the age."

Unique units: Huszar is a must have. I like Fekete Sereg too, altough would change it somewhat, it's not a gunpowder unit at all to require Arquebus and Sulfur
I would probably make them very special, elit melee troops, with a national limit of 2, keep Huszars with a national limit of 6, and maybe introduce a 3rd unique unit, with a limit of 4 (to keep the total number of 12 unique national units, which seem to be consistent for all civs)
Some ideas for the UU, or for some additional distinctive units: Hajdu Infantry, Kun and Jassic units, Szekely units, Tegethoff class battleship

Leaders: Some of the following:
Arpad, Szt. Istvan/St Stephen, Konyves Kalman/Coloman the Learned, Bela III, Bela IV, Karoly Robert/Charles I, Nagy Lajos/Loius I the Great, Luxemburgi Zsigmond/Sigismund of Luxemburg, Hunyadi Matyas/Matthias Corvinus, Istvan Bathory, Istvan Bocskai, Gabor Bethlen, Ferenc Rakoczi II, Lajos Kossuth, Miklos Horthy, Imre Nagy
My top 6 would be: Arpad, Istvan, Bela III or Bela IV, Lajos I, Matyas, Miklos Horthy or Imre Nagy (if you guys want a late leader)

keldath · Jun 3, 2014

hi,
is it possible to make the epidemic to be a game option?

also - i think theres too less health bonuses ?

Hian the Frog · Jun 3, 2014

keldath said:
hi,
is it possible to make the epidemic to be a game option?

No.

Pandemias were common in the world history (Plagues of late Roman Empire, Black plague, Chinese plagues, Spanish flu, etc)

keldath said:
also - i think theres too less health bonuses ?

I don't think so.
OTOH, I think there's many players who don't build the needed buildings/wonders or research the right techs. Often, too often, players focus on building gold and military buildings first. Research, culture and health buildings are built only if at peace, if the city is too big, etc.

Ahnarras · Jun 4, 2014

No.
Pandemias were common in the world history (Plagues of late Roman Empire, Black plague, Chinese plagues, Spanish flu, etc)

Agree. But micro-managing every cities get old fast. Epidemics kills citizens, a new one is born, and he doesn't go where the previous was. And you have to check every then and now to be sure that the computer is not screwing up with your production.
I'm not sure what could be the solution... Best would be to have a way to "lock" citizen on a tile/specialist slot, like in Civ5.
Or epidemics could last longer (only 2 turn for a plague? Meh.), be a real malus for the city production (honestly, my main concern when an epidemic shows up is not "aw no, i won't be able to produce X/will waste gold and science" but ", have to check on that city in X turn to replace all the citizen), maybe empty the granary (with the huge amount of food needed with your last change, could be strong).
Just some idea, hope it could help

HannibalBarka · Jun 4, 2014

Ahnarras said:
Agree. But micro-managing every cities get old fast. Epidemics kills citizens, a new one is born, and he doesn't go where the previous was. And you have to check every then and now to be sure that the computer is not screwing up with your production.
I'm not sure what could be the solution... Best would be to have a way to "lock" citizen on a tile/specialist slot, like in Civ5.
Or epidemics could last longer (only 2 turn for a plague? Meh.), be a real malus for the city production (honestly, my main concern when an epidemic shows up is not "aw no, i won't be able to produce X/will waste gold and science" but ", have to check on that city in X turn to replace all the citizen), maybe empty the granary (with the huge amount of food needed with your last change, could be strong).
Just some idea, hope it could help

I agree. I think Epidemic should be much less frequent and more deadly, spreading to other cities and civs (especially those with whome you have an OB and those who are close) like in real history.

pioswa · Jun 5, 2014

i hate to tell you this, but game still crashes when screen jumps to piechota (polish WWII infantry). On the other hand i does not crash on Piechota linowa anymore

Original bug report can be found here

keldath · Jun 7, 2014

hey guys,

is there s possibility to run the mod on mac?

sami_snow · Jun 7, 2014

keldath said:
hey guys,

is there s possibility to run the mod on mac?

no

Judojimmy · Jun 10, 2014

I have been playing civ 5 for a while and it is a good game but I am drawn back to Civ IV. I look forward to playing your mod again. I had to dig out the box of dusty disks. I couldnt find beyond the sword so I bought it from steam.
thx

ZergMazter · Jun 13, 2014

Hello! So i recently started playing this mod and i love it. However there was a major bummer in my game :/. I played as the English and traveled to America with my redcoats and managed to invade half of it. I had planned to turn it into a colony, but to my surprise the colony creation option wasnt there. Unfortunately I crushed my economy by conquering so many cities and now im stuck with them and my research, culture, espionage, and upgrades are being affected.

Does the 'Give independence' option become available with a tech or was it just removed? Thanks

ETyrell91 · Jun 13, 2014

Is there any way to automatically switch to Clean Map when entering Globe View? Or better, to just hide city names in Globe View and show them in Standard? The map can get pretty cluttered in mid- to late-game.

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