Realism Invictus

[Darkphoenix]

Just updated SVN, haven't played in a few months. Looking forward to grades dropping.

Quick bug report, generated a new map and got an XML error - it looks like you forgot to remove the references to the German mine from the events file. I ran a replace each line referencing it with " " and the error did not return.

Also, holy crap new icons. New icons everywhere!

 

[sazhdapec]

That's vanilla Civ 4 behaviour. We didn't change anything there (nor do I know how to, really).

Is there a way to tune the probabilities then? For example, lower the chance to get caught while moving or standing on a tile but increase the chance to fail the espionage missions.

Well... Do you really trust AI to decide whenever is one or the other appropriate? Or will it lead to an even more misguided AI? We try to not add anything with potential to further screw up the AI ability.

I've already noticed that AI "builds" local crafts, research and culture. And it seems that AI does that when all other possible things are built. So this logic could be used with the proposed buildings. Another problem I see here though is that AI tends to abort production which in this case would be a huge waste.

_____

I've installed SVN version (WC revision 4930 if I get it right) and played till the late medieval era. First of all I wanted to say that I liked the mines revamp, craftsman idea, grouping units into more logical and specialized upgrade trees, techs and civics tuning as well as scientists' great works.
And here are the things I want to discuss.
1) Unit cost increase
I think this is great. It encourages to build diverse armies and makes it harder to have a lot of units. But this change leads to strange situations. For example, I had only two 7 cataphracts and the next 9 medium cavalty cost less! I would like to resolve this by increasing costs of all units in the upgrade tree not only the ones I have and can build.
The other thing is I don't like that no resource units (those produced like workers and settlers) also become more expensive. Much more expensive. Aren't they supposed to be the bulk of the armies? For example shouldn't they soften the enemy stacks so that more valuable units had greater chances to win? Please remove the increased costs for this type of units.

2) Kitab-i Bahriye science work
It's ability is Free Sentry promotion for units built in this city. I didn't check everything but not all types of units recieve the promotion. The Sentry link leads to ranged mounted and helicopter units promotion but the description of the work suggests that the promotion is for water units. Can you clear this please?

3) Some converter buildings give additional bonuses and some don't. For example, brick factory just makes stone out of coal but cotton mill also gives some and a free craftsman. How do you decide which converter buildings should have a bonus?

4) Some civics are still weaker. Monarchy is totally useless, Caste System has a pretty heavy drawback, paganism can't be played to its most potential due to early world wonders, and you nerfed pagan temples, though it's an early civic so it's more or less ok.

5) I also have some observations and thoughts about AI behaviour but I don't think I could tell you anything new.

 

[knuckledragger]

@Walter

Any plans to integrate this mod?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=497863

Thanks for your efforts!

 

[Fantasyfr]

@Walter Hawkwood:
Long time no see Walter
I have a few things on mind first do you remember my little feature request a long time ago?

- seperate switches for health and happiness that stop growth at their respective limits

Not a bad idea.

is there any chance to get this?

Second ViterboKnight had released his source code for city states

Besides, the SDK code is also online:
Click here to download
Who wants to look at how city states are handled can keep two main points in mind.
1- a method IsCityState will tell whether a player is actually a city-state or not. This will recurr all over the code and the python scripts.
2- an "addCityStates" method in the CvGame class will be run at the beginning of the game, to pick random city-states and find random locations where to put them. It also initializes these players.

is there also any chance that you implement it?

 

[Shuikkanen]

I love the new icons. The new german unique improvement seems like a great idea, although since it's a route, it doesn't show as a unique improvement in sevopedia. It shows that Germans have no unique improvement.

"Wir fahr'n farh'n farh'n auf der Autobahn!"

EDIT: The german worker needs to learn how to build ordinary mines now that bergwerk is removed.

 

[kiwi_lifter]

As an add on to my earlier post:

I'm sure that you've heard this before, but Tribal Forts are fun spoilers. As an example, I'm playing Greece, and I've invested in a massive military build up to take Lycia:

5 rams, 5 hoplites with 1 pip in city attack, four Hoimoi with pip in strength, 5 dorphoi with pip in strength, 2 war chariots with 2 pip in strength, 5 Ekdromoi with pip in city attack. I attack...and don't do any damage at all. None. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Lycia was conquered a LOT, including by the Greeks before the gundpowder age. But it's pretty much invincible to me. However, the ai has manged to conquer it with a a few militia....what gives? I get the concept, but honestly, tone it down a bit, please. If I've got a stack that could take any city in the game, I should be able to take down a tribal fort.

Or maybe someone can tell me how to edit tribal forts myself?

 

[Shuikkanen]

Regarding Tribal Forts...

I've noticed that defeating one might now grant a slave, which turns into a worker if you don't run slavery. Nice and logical.

However, it does make an exploit with the Fort even more lucrative. Here it is:
Your early warrior has about 76% chance of defeating the Fort.

How? You ask. It's because the game has you win the first ever combat you have with a barbarian unit. I'm not sure how far back this behavior goes, possibly as far as Vanilla, and maybe it can't be changed. The reasoning has probably been that you won't get blown out of the game in the first few turns by losing to a random animal, or a goody hut barbarian popped by a neighboring civ. It's not a 100% chance, and I suspect this is because of first strikes. Those are handled normally, and the fort can actually kill your unit with them. But the actual combat, your puny warrior defeats the barbarian town every time.

As long as you haven't "wasted" your first combat somewhere you can now do one of the following depending on which civ you play:

- Defeat random fort with no strategic purpose. Get a +10 XP warrior, and possibly a worker.
- Defeat a solitary fort to gain access to a square, with Europe you now have passage north of the alps below the Netherlands for longer than usual, for example.
- Defeat a city defended by a solitary fort, like Riga, or the town north of Jerusalem, raze it, or better yet, capture it once it's grown size 2 but doesn't yet have another defender built. The AI sometimes stumbles upon this, with Israel having 2 cities, or the Poles controlling Riga, which is how I noticed this thing in the first place. You can also capture the archer-defended Illyria this way immediately.

Like I said, it doesn't work 100% of the time, but the payoff is well worth the risk, and frankly I load and try again (after rng reseeds) until I succeed. It offers rather interesting strategic options. (And the AI does benefit from it occasionally, because the odds are calculated properly.)

As soon as you fight a single combat against a barb though, the benefit is gone.

@kiwi_lifter: Open TR_Unique_Units_CIV4UnitInfos in Mods/Realism/Assets/XML/Units in notepad. Ctrl-F to find UNIT_BARBARIAN_FORT.
Also, my description of the exploit above should explain how the AI came to possess it with a few militia, as you say. Still, a solitary barbarian fort *can* be defeated by a stack of swordsmen alone. It just has to be a large stack. And you need to be lucky, well, not unlucky. Proof: I once cleared the whole of Australia (the Aborigines have forts too) with Austronesia by mid-medieval. Although it really only starts becoming "easy" after you have access to Pikemen. Single unit stacks of your heaviest hitters work best (obviously drop the defenses to 0 first), the forts fart in the general direction of combined arms stacks. 10 units minimum for 1 fort with no other defenders. Remember to bring enough to finish the whole town in a single turn, the forts heal immediately, and get promotions to boot from a failed assault. Regular defenders like warriors can be a nightmare due to sheer numbers, for if the fort is finally damaged heavily, but doesn't get destroyed, it might hide behind those, and you really really need to win on the first turn of attacking (not counting bombardment).

It might take 5 or even 10 units before the fort has even a single dent, but the rng has to cave in eventually, and the chances for the fort to not get damage from a single attacker start dropping dramatically once it has that single dent.

Towns with 3 forts... ye gods! I've sent stacks of 50 units against those to be sure. Nuking from orbit is best.

 

[kiwi_lifter]

Hi Shuikkanen,

And thank you again for taking the time to reply. Unfortunately, I don't think the automatic victory against barbarians apllies if you play Monarch or above? I may be wrong on that, but I've lost many first combats. You may be right about the ai against the tribal fort, though-it probably gets that bonus. The best way to get tribal forts for me so far is to build a city by them, though this doesn't always eliminate them either. I think you need to be right beside them?

I could always remove them via the editor during the game, but this really kills the immersion for me. I just think that they need to be made beatable by normal classical armies, provided they are strong, as is otherwise feels as if a unit from the Industrial Age has been dropped into the BC eras.

By the way, I tried your suggestions on making minor civs playable, and it worked like a charm. Now, if you could tell me how to edit the world map so that I can play Israel

 

[pioswa]

Few thoughts about increasing unit cost.

At first i loved it. It forces you and AI to have more diverse armies and reduces number of units, but problem started at mid Renaissance era. As i invented flintlock musket i upgraded my most experienced units to wojsko kwarcienne (as i play as Poland), and started recruiting new musket guys, and in a few turns cost of new unit was just to high. It took 12 turns to recruit one in city with lots of hammers and heroic epic, upgrade cost of one unit was in thousands. Worst thing is that 2/3 of my garrison units was still outdated (bowman, medieval bowman, lewy, swordsmen etc). It is really pain in the ass and it is getting worse on larger maps, where you have more cities and more garrison units. In earlier eras it wasn't that much of a problem because you have more selection of units. After yous invent flintlock musket you don't get that many types of units. You have musket men, irregulars, light infantry, man at arms and pikemen. In medieval you had swordsmen, man at arms, medieval swordsmen, crossbowmen, levy, pikemen, recon guys, foot knights, crusaders and some civilizations got longbowmen. If one type of units cost to much you can fortify other type of unit (i don't mention cavalry, because i don't use cavalry as garrison units so high cost of cavalry is not a problem). In earlier eras outdated units are still pretty useful because in highly fortified city even simple bowman are useful. Against musket armies, all medieval units are just cannon fooder, so you want to upgrade your garrison units as fast as possible but when cost of single soldier is higher then cost of great wonder then there is something wrong. Problem is getting worse when you get new cities (by conquest or settler), because you don't have enough units (even outdated), to fortify them and new units cost is ridiculous. Drafting help a little but it forces you to run civics with draft option.
Overall the idea i good, bot it need a few changes. For example remove 25% cost increase on irregulars, levies and militia units. They would become main garrison units for large empires. In that case smaller countries could afford to fortify their cities with professional soldiers, but it would be harder for large empires to protect their borders because their garrison would be composed mainly of irregulars.
Other nice thing (but i don't know if possible) could be option to upgrade units to better but outdated type. For example if i have invented flintlock musket then it would be nice if i still could upgrade my bowmen to arquebus guys when cost of musket guys is to high.

 

[pioswa]

Other nice thing would be decreasing cost of units if you have more resources needed to build that kind of unit. IE every source of iron will decrease cost of iron based units by 10%, in that case more resources you have the easier it gets to recruit large army. It would give player more reasons to secure resources he already have, and make a dilemma if you want to trade that resource, and in case of war you could brake trade treaties with other players to boost your unit production. Maybe food resources should decrees cost of every unit by 5%, large armies require large quantities of food, and empire with lots of food can handle larger military. Resource bonuses should apply only to units that have increased cost.
Also maybe it should be enabled to get additional resources from every player, not just demand that resource from vassal player, but I don’t know how if it is possible and how Ai would handle that.

 

[Shuikkanen]

Hi Shuikkanen,

And thank you again for taking the time to reply. Unfortunately, I don't think the automatic victory against barbarians apllies if you play Monarch or above? I may be wrong on that, but I've lost many first combats. You may be right about the ai against the tribal fort, though-it probably gets that bonus. The best way to get tribal forts for me so far is to build a city by them, though this doesn't always eliminate them either. I think you need to be right beside them?

Hmm.. I could've sworn it was otherwise. Have you tried hovering the cursor over them before attacking? Unless the victory condition applies, with every ancient unit it should amount to no more than about 0.1 percent, but when it does, it shows 60-80% to me. As for removing them via cultural expansion, I don't think they do that (well, the barbarians don't, minor civs do) at least not that I've observed.. Not even Great Wall can evict them.

By the way, I tried your suggestions on making minor civs playable, and it worked like a charm. Now, if you could tell me how to edit the world map so that I can play Israel

It's simple enough: just edit the RI World Map Huge file in Mods/Realism/PrivateMaps and change the Israel's value of PlayableCiv to 1.

 

[kiwi_lifter]

Thank you, Shuikkanen,

And yes, you definitely don't win your first barbarian battle, at least on certain difficulty levels. If you found a city beside a fort, it goes away, but as you say, expansion doesn't do it.

Cheers!

 

[Hian the Frog]

Hi All,

Update your SVN to revision 4940.
There's a lot of changes.

Good game !

 

[Lord Brooks]

Hi, I'm playing SVN 4913 at the moment and some observations I've made with Korea is that they seem to be missing some early middle-ages units. As an example I play on Emperor level and I've been at war with a strong Roman Empire since about 300-400 AD and I'm now at about 1500 AD. It's been permanent war... but I'm always on the back foot. Partly because I'm behind in the science race but also because I think there's a sizable gap in the time that stronger middle age units become available to Rome than they do to Korea.

Rome and Korea both have access to Silla Spearmen/Auxilla (4), Gakgung Bowmen/Auxilla Bowmen (4), Asian Skirmisher/Velite (4), Silla Axemen/Marian Legionary (5), Silla Swordsmen/Imperial Legionary (6) and Righteous Militia/European Levy (6) at the same time.

Then there's a gap when Korea can usually get Hwarang (7) before Rome can get Balestriere Genovese (6) and Spadaccino Lombardo (7) but not long for Korea to make the most of their Hwarang which is limited to 4 units. Then Rome kicks ass, because their units are a step ahead of the Korean's units for some time, Rome has two unlimited strength 7 land units vs Korea's four Hwarang units.

I think the same advantage applies to most of the other civs bar Korea.

It seems like Korea are missing a Crossbowman unit and Medieval Swordsman unit.

By the time Korea gets to catch up with Choson Pikemen/Swiss Guard and Militzia Communale (8) it's still imbalanced as Rome gets a unique unit plus the standard Pikeman unit. So Rome has an advantage here too. They get a unique unit as well as the standard unit whilst Korea had to make do with a limit of 4 of their unique units and nothing else on par for centuries.

Now I know the game isn't balanced and is better for it, but this seems like quite a gap in firepower for Korea during the middle ages. I hope this observation helps bring a potential gap to your attention.

Thanks for the great work.

 

[sazhdapec]

Yay! More new icons

 

[krasny]

How does one stop automated workers from building slash and burn farms?

Thanks.

 

[Drakarska]

How does one stop automated workers from building slash and burn farms?

Thanks.

Click on the worker in question, and then click "cancel last order" icon.

Just out of curiosity, why would you have your workers automated?

 

[krasny]

Click on the worker in question, and then click "cancel last order" icon.

Just out of curiosity, why would you have your workers automated?

I was hoping there was a way to prevent them from making slash and burn farms without constant intervention.

I use automated workers because once my empire becomes reasonably large I find ordering workers to be tiresome.

 

[Zooasaurus]

How do i update RI's SVN? What is SVN?
Sorry, I'm a newb here

 

[pioswa]

this may help

http://www.realism-invictus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=825