Realism Invictus

There's some really interesting changes in SVN - can't wait to try it out once I finish up the current game. In the meantime, is anyone else bothered by the galleas line?

In the early game, triremes do a lot of heavy lifting: defending resources, hunting barbarians, escorting transports, blockading enemy ports. I find I need a ton of them, which means I eventually wind up with a vast fleet of gallaeses. But then navies get far more interesting: you get carracks for scouting, privateers for nuisance raids, and frigates for big expensive capital ships. All great and well designed units.

But then carracks become sloops, privateers become heavy privateers, and frigates weren't badass enough so let's have steam frigates! All the while my fleet of heavily upgraded gallaeses languishes by the shoreline. Then when they finally upgrade they become... ironclads? Not only are they kind of rubbish from a gameplay perspective (I don't think I've ever built one from scratch) but it bothers me from a historical perspective. To the best of my knowledge ironclads were a pretty niche/experimental design, not something anyone built a large fleet of.

Am I way off base? Curious to hear what others think.
 
There's some really interesting changes in SVN - can't wait to try it out once I finish up the current game. In the meantime, is anyone else bothered by the galleas line?

In the early game, triremes do a lot of heavy lifting: defending resources, hunting barbarians, escorting transports, blockading enemy ports. I find I need a ton of them, which means I eventually wind up with a vast fleet of gallaeses. But then navies get far more interesting: you get carracks for scouting, privateers for nuisance raids, and frigates for big expensive capital ships. All great and well designed units.

But then carracks become sloops, privateers become heavy privateers, and frigates weren't badass enough so let's have steam frigates! All the while my fleet of heavily upgraded gallaeses languishes by the shoreline. Then when they finally upgrade they become... ironclads? Not only are they kind of rubbish from a gameplay perspective (I don't think I've ever built one from scratch) but it bothers me from a historical perspective. To the best of my knowledge ironclads were a pretty niche/experimental design, not something anyone built a large fleet of.

Am I way off base? Curious to hear what others think.
Of course what really matters is the gameplay, and I have not done enough naval warfare in RI to comment really. But historically, the "ironclad" was a major development of the warship. How many there were depends which RL ships you call RI ironclads, compared to steam frigates and the like, but ships with iron armour dominated the waves pretty much as soon as they were developed.

By 1862, navies across Europe had adopted ironclads. Britain and France each had sixteen either completed or under construction, though the British vessels were larger. Austria, Italy, Russia, and Spain were also building ironclads.​

I will agree that them being weaker than the scouting line (sloops?) for many techs seems a bit wrong.
 
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Ah interesting. Based on the model I was thinking of ironclad in terms of small, retrofitted river boats like the Merrimack and Monitor. It makes a bit more sense if you use the term more generally- still don't love it though.
 
Ah interesting. Based on the model I was thinking of ironclad in terms of small, retrofitted river boats like the Merrimack and Monitor. It makes a bit more sense if you use the term more generally- still don't love it though.
The USS Monitor was not a retrofitted river boat?

 
:crazyeye::goodjob: Finally the skilled french workers managed to make their first Highway/Modern Road :eek::grouphug:


But to get to there from my failed 1st attempt, where I managed to f.ck up most of the code for autobahn, modern roads, railroads and worker_units - I finally did something right(!)


I made a fallback to the latest working backup of the RI structure I had. Added the Autobahn build lines to all workers. Then resumed the game from a savegame file I knew was clean.for above j.nk and played on until I knew: Next turn will show. But no - that didn't help.:shifty:


Then I checked the ORIGINAL buildlines for the german worker unit and compared those with the french worker unit. And I found, that the german worker unit had buildlines for both the modern_road and autobahn, while the french had none. So the lines for modern_road was now added to the french worker unit as well. And then: Well read 1st line again ;)
 
The art model is almost certainly based on the CSS Virginia (aka the Merrimack) although I didn't realize that the Americans get their own distinctive Monitor - very cool. Both are still small vessels and with the famous showdown occurring in the James river off the Chesapeake Bay. And I think that the game is trying to show that they were coastal and river vessels by making them so dang slow in the ocean. But as your wiki article shows, the Europeans at least developed a number of proper seafaring ironclads like HMS Warrior.

Perhaps my complaint is that ironclads never really have a time to shine. Armor plating comes very late, and is very close to steel hull. So by the time you can build ironclads, I'm usually making a beeline for cruisers. So perhaps those prereqs could be re-examined? Alternatively, perhaps there could be more distinction of roles in the early navies? My main problem isn't even that ironclads are underpowered, it's that the game forces me to build so many trireme-tree units which wind up being suboptimal and unused. If my swordsman can figure out how to work a musket then surely my sailors that have been owning the waves for generations can handle modern ships.
 
As for sciences comming "too fast" in the late game I use the "time-ahead" penalty much harder than Walter made it to.

I'm not "giving on the doorstep" to those nations, that are too much ahead. I always have 300% to 400% penalty to those nations, that are 2 eras ahead.and 100% to 200% for those, that are "just" 1 era ahead. That's really a "science-brake" (edited from science-breake) that works (great thanks to Walter for this feature).


Second. Knowing that this is working, I'm using the gamespeedinfos.xml to focus on exactly the years I want to play most (see attached file, section for Epic-games).


Edit: Hmmmm. "science-breake"?! Well, english isn't my native language but.... I hope it's (more) correct now.
 

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My main problem isn't even that ironclads are underpowered, it's that the game forces me to build so many trireme-tree units which wind up being suboptimal and unused.
I know what you mean. Trireme's are your only non-transport ship, so can accumulate experience from early on, but upgrade only on the coastal defense line. So your most experienced ships are not your exciting frigates and battleships but your stack defense ships that only do anything when the AI actually makes an effective offensive naval action (which is rare). An option may be to give triremes multiple upgrade paths.
 
@Samson: Ai's can surely make great offensive naval actions including invasions.

During one of my earlier games on the map I'm playing on now - with same nations and leaders, but with bigger distance between the cities - the Mongols landed more than 200 units in 2 waves using 30+15 troopships and 50-60 supportships........ And this isn't the first time I have seen things like this, even this is the biggest invasion I have ever seen........


Spoiler :


Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG
 
@Samson: Ai's can surely make great offensive naval actions including invasions.

During one of my earlier games on the map I'm playing on now - with same nations and leaders, but with bigger distance between the cities - the Mongols landed more than 200 units in 2 waves using 30+15 troopships and 50-60 supportships........ And this isn't the first time I have seen things like this, even this is the biggest invasion I have ever seen........


That is so cool. I have never seen anything like that in any mod, and I have played quite a few.
 
That is so cool. I have never seen anything like that in any mod, and I have played quite a few.

I never made it past Monarch in the base game, but can certainly vouch that the AI is far more capable and intelligent in this mod, not only with maneuver, but with most areas of gameplay. It won't value resources which confer no benefit to them in trade deals, will raze cities (depending on leader reluctance, detailed in the game encyclopedia) which are a problem for them upon conquest, will stage fake-out maneuvers to draw out garrisons before moving in with a better stack, and does know how to properly invade navally.

There is an important difference with naval invasions from the base game, however. Once a ship enters enemy waters, it must survive the next round before it can offload its troops. This is new as of 3.5 I think, and forces a would-be invader to contend with naval interception which wasn't necessary in the base game.
 
There is an important difference with naval invasions from the base game, however. Once a ship enters enemy waters, it must survive the next round before it can offload its troops. This is new as of 3.5 I think, and forces a would-be invader to contend with naval interception which wasn't necessary in the base game.

Unless the ship carries naval-troops such as marines ............ They can still attack upon landing even on enemy land..
 
It won't value resources which confer no benefit to them in trade deals
There are ways to trick it though. I cannot remember exactly, was it buying the resource for free the turn before I had the tech to use it?
 
There are ways to trick it though. I cannot remember exactly, was it buying the resource for free the turn before I had the tech to use it?

To the best of my knowledge, it's been deliberately programmed to be aware of these types of tricks, and for the most part doesn't fall prey to them anymore, in my experience at least. Also, no more useless late-game copper trading chips! Copper has utility throughout the game: early strategic resource for powerful units, midgame for artillery production (and for large naval vessels), and late game for its use in electronics as an input for microchips. :) That one always felt like an exploit in BtS, at any rate.

--

I'm moving along in the new SVN. It's early on but a couple of things to report: the new resource icons look great! Also, I've had zero "stickiness" with the end turn button, so that seems to have been fixed so far.

One comment, though, is I've got to agree with Birdman on the highways not being exclusively German... I mean, why not, just for flavor, make them available to everyone, or at least the US as well? The game's "spiritual" timeline ends in the late 1980s, but the US Interstate System was a Cold-War project completed beforehand. Wouldn't that be in-step with the mod's agenda to be "beautiful" and depict the historical flavor of its timeline realistically?
 
ok i recently upgraded to 64 bit system and expected to get through the huge earth map scenario as demetrius but with about 500 turns left out of 2000 plus it crashed, I think i figured out that the save file wont go over 4mb? Is this a known issue or any way around it? The game was awesome i was in 2nd not too far back prince level. ) also im using the 3.55 havnt upgraded to 3.57 yet
 
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ok i recently upgraded to 64 bit system and expected to get through the huge earth map scenario as demetrius but with about 500 turns left out of 2000 plus it crashed, I think i figured out that the save file wont go over 4mb? Is this a known issue or any way around it? The game was awesome i was in 2nd not too far back prince level. ) also im using the 3.55 havnt upgraded to 3.57 yet
It's a known issue with the civ4 engine, unfortunately. The game is just too old to take advantage of 64-bit operating systems. You can get a bit more out of it using an application called Process Lasso - I think the first post in this thread has instructions.
 
- Combat occurred mid-turn during which AP resolution passed to stop the war in question, which resulted in one of my cities being conquered. Is this functioning correctly?

- Ikhanda Pedia description says it lowers city maintenance (as it did in BtS), but it doesn't.

- Potter's workshop is not listed in Pedia search under "buildings"

- Allemanic swordsman is spelled with two Ls, but the Alemanic horseman is spelled with only one.

- Does the IDW partisan spawning chance apply against barbarians and slaves/serfs? It did not happen for me against good odds.

- Can wonders be destroyed upon city conquest? I had the excruciatingly frustrating experience of losing my incredibly highly developed capital to a massive serf revolt, and upon retaking the city, one of my wonders (the Colossus), alongside more than half of the scores of buildings, had been destroyed. This was not the case in BtS. Was it deliberately changed for Realism Invictus?
 
My comment about the AP-wonder.

I think it becomes obsolete too late, so I have changed that from propaganda to minority-rights.


Because when a nation choose it's time and in own interest to embraces the minorities, then it seldom - if ever - will accept political resolutions from a religious council from outside. Specially if the nation also embraces free religion.
 
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Hi, love the mod so far! I have been playing history rewritten before. Which is great, but i feel this mod is better balanced. I managed to implement the smartmap generator with HR. But it resulted in not all the aspects of that mod being used for the map generation.

I often find that a lot of the map generators don’t generate enough rivers. I was wondering if it is possible to increase the amount of rivers generated by the RI Planet Generator?

I noticed Totestra generates a lot more rivers, but I prefer all the other options the planet generator gives. Is there anywhere in the mode files that I can change this?
 
OK, so I just uploaded a save-compatible update that fixes some of the issues with the previous one. Turns out the change to artillery AI made AI players almost completely disregard it. Should be working better now though.

In the meantime, is anyone else bothered by the galleas line?

In the early game, triremes do a lot of heavy lifting: defending resources, hunting barbarians, escorting transports, blockading enemy ports. I find I need a ton of them, which means I eventually wind up with a vast fleet of gallaeses. But then navies get far more interesting: you get carracks for scouting, privateers for nuisance raids, and frigates for big expensive capital ships. All great and well designed units.

But then carracks become sloops, privateers become heavy privateers, and frigates weren't badass enough so let's have steam frigates! All the while my fleet of heavily upgraded gallaeses languishes by the shoreline. Then when they finally upgrade they become... ironclads? Not only are they kind of rubbish from a gameplay perspective (I don't think I've ever built one from scratch) but it bothers me from a historical perspective. To the best of my knowledge ironclads were a pretty niche/experimental design, not something anyone built a large fleet of.

Am I way off base? Curious to hear what others think.

OK, so this one I'll try to explain. While the current setup is not ideal, I feel it is adequate for what it intends to do.

There are several non-intersecting lines of ships, which - by design - actually "slide" in power over time relative to each other:
- The first military branch you have access to are oared coastal ships. Their design (basically, a big galley) stayed remarkably conservative until the very end of the Age of Sail - in part because of the very constraints that oar propulsion places on them.
- Then, you get to unlock the first "blue water" ships, starting with carracks. While their mobility is an obvious advantage, I wouldn't call them the "scout line" out of the box. A carrack in its time was as much capable a warship as a galleass was. By the time they upgrade to sloops, though, there are bigger meaner designs around, and the "ecological niche" of blue water warships is overtaken by galleons (which are a direct evolution of a carrack design) and frigates.
- Which gives the rise to the "cruiser" line, starting with frigates and their kin. The "workhorses" of a blue water navy only get outclassed when the battleship line arrives, and tend to stay viable for lots of tasks such as pirate hunting long after.
- Lastly, the battleship line is the heaviest combat ships you're able to build, and is fairly straightforward in its uses - this is simply the heaviest hardest-hitting thing you have.

As I mentioned galleons being an upgrade of carrack concept, why not have carracks upgrade to frigates? Basically, I considered that idea, but having straight non-intersecting upgrade lines had more appeal to me. Also, carracks start with "Coastal" promo, shared with all of their later kin, which the cruiser line doesn't have - and upgrading to it would result in "coastal cruisers" later on.

As for oared ship line upgrading to ironclads - this is basically the "Brown water" line. Its intent is to defend your shorelines and later, in XX century, to support heavier ships. "Ironclad" in this context is not "Ironclad" in the broad sense (blue water ironclads are represented by armoured cruisers), but rather "Ironclad gunboat". The inability to directly upgrade to cruiser and battleship lines is my deliberate decision, as it creates a "cutoff" where one has to actually build themselves a new blue water navy to stay competitive, representing the effort countries all over the world had to make to have a chance in the naval arms race in the last several centuries.

The art model is almost certainly based on the CSS Virginia (aka the Merrimack) although I didn't realize that the Americans get their own distinctive Monitor - very cool. Both are still small vessels and with the famous showdown occurring in the James river off the Chesapeake Bay. And I think that the game is trying to show that they were coastal and river vessels by making them so dang slow in the ocean. But as your wiki article shows, the Europeans at least developed a number of proper seafaring ironclads like HMS Warrior.

Perhaps my complaint is that ironclads never really have a time to shine. Armor plating comes very late, and is very close to steel hull. So by the time you can build ironclads, I'm usually making a beeline for cruisers. So perhaps those prereqs could be re-examined? Alternatively, perhaps there could be more distinction of roles in the early navies? My main problem isn't even that ironclads are underpowered, it's that the game forces me to build so many trireme-tree units which wind up being suboptimal and unused. If my swordsman can figure out how to work a musket then surely my sailors that have been owning the waves for generations can handle modern ships.

Yep, see above. Their lack of "time to shine" is basically by design - they are supposed to be a "budget solution" by the time they are available, or a stopgap measure while you build yourself a proper blue water navy.

One comment, though, is I've got to agree with Birdman on the highways not being exclusively German... I mean, why not, just for flavor, make them available to everyone, or at least the US as well? The game's "spiritual" timeline ends in the late 1980s, but the US Interstate System was a Cold-War project completed beforehand. Wouldn't that be in-step with the mod's agenda to be "beautiful" and depict the historical flavor of its timeline realistically?

It was like this before, and then I decided to give poor Germans something unique and recognizable. I though a unique route is actually a cool concept that wasn't really used in Civ games before. And now everyone is telling me that they don't want Germans to have a unique route type. :sad:

- Combat occurred mid-turn during which AP resolution passed to stop the war in question, which resulted in one of my cities being conquered. Is this functioning correctly?

RI doesn't change anything regarding how AP stuff works. So whether it is functioning correctly or not, it's a vanilla thing.

- Ikhanda Pedia description says it lowers city maintenance (as it did in BtS), but it doesn't.

Noted and fixed.

- Potter's workshop is not listed in Pedia search under "buildings"

Because it is limited in number. Look under Limited building category instead (same as Storyteller for instance).

- Allemanic swordsman is spelled with two Ls, but the Alemanic horseman is spelled with only one.

Ugh, English/French confusion. Fixed, thanks.

- Does the IDW partisan spawning chance apply against barbarians and slaves/serfs? It did not happen for me against good odds.

Yes, I had them spawn against revolting serfs in my current game.

- Can wonders be destroyed upon city conquest? I had the excruciatingly frustrating experience of losing my incredibly highly developed capital to a massive serf revolt, and upon retaking the city, one of my wonders (the Colossus), alongside more than half of the scores of buildings, had been destroyed. This was not the case in BtS. Was it deliberately changed for Realism Invictus?

Yes, wonders have different chances of being destroyed on conquest, usually tied to the wonder itself and its history (for example, Pyramids are impossible to destroy while Great Library tends to burn quite well). Now that you mention it though, I realize that should be reflected in pedia.

My comment about the AP-wonder.

I think it becomes obsolete too late, so I have changed that from propaganda to minority-rights.

Probably so. I'll consider changing this too.

I often find that a lot of the map generators don’t generate enough rivers. I was wondering if it is possible to increase the amount of rivers generated by the RI Planet Generator?

I noticed Totestra generates a lot more rivers, but I prefer all the other options the planet generator gives. Is there anywhere in the mode files that I can change this?

Unfortunately, PG uses the vanilla river generator and has nothing in it that you could tweak to this end.
 
There are several non-intersecting lines of ships, which - by design - actually "slide" in power over time relative to each other:
- The first military branch you have access to are oared coastal ships. Their design (basically, a big galley) stayed remarkably conservative until the very end of the Age of Sail - in part because of the very constraints that oar propulsion places on them.
- Then, you get to unlock the first "blue water" ships, starting with carracks. While their mobility is an obvious advantage, I wouldn't call them the "scout line" out of the box. A carrack in its time was as much capable a warship as a galleass was. By the time they upgrade to sloops, though, there are bigger meaner designs around, and the "ecological niche" of blue water warships is overtaken by galleons (which are a direct evolution of a carrack design) and frigates.
- Which gives the rise to the "cruiser" line, starting with frigates and their kin. The "workhorses" of a blue water navy only get outclassed when the battleship line arrives, and tend to stay viable for lots of tasks such as pirate hunting long after.
- Lastly, the battleship line is the heaviest combat ships you're able to build, and is fairly straightforward in its uses - this is simply the heaviest hardest-hitting thing you have.

As I mentioned galleons being an upgrade of carrack concept, why not have carracks upgrade to frigates? Basically, I considered that idea, but having straight non-intersecting upgrade lines had more appeal to me. Also, carracks start with "Coastal" promo, shared with all of their later kin, which the cruiser line doesn't have - and upgrading to it would result in "coastal cruisers" later on.

As for oared ship line upgrading to ironclads - this is basically the "Brown water" line. Its intent is to defend your shorelines and later, in XX century, to support heavier ships. "Ironclad" in this context is not "Ironclad" in the broad sense (blue water ironclads are represented by armoured cruisers), but rather "Ironclad gunboat". The inability to directly upgrade to cruiser and battleship lines is my deliberate decision, as it creates a "cutoff" where one has to actually build themselves a new blue water navy to stay competitive, representing the effort countries all over the world had to make to have a chance in the naval arms race in the last several centuries.

You make a lot of good points and it is obvious that the design is thoughtful and intentional. I do find it interesting that the player is expected to build a new blue water navy from scratch whereas other major transitions such as swords to gunpowder or propellers to jet engines occur without much fuss. But if that is working as designed, hey, it's your prerogative as designer. I know it's a big ask at this point, but would there be any appetite to spice up the early navies with other designs beyond "big galleys"? I'm no naval historian, but what about things like light hemiolias or tower ships with artillery? Taking Total War as an inspiration, the naval battles are usually comprised of some combination of ramming, boarding, and shooting. I think I'd be on board with the big galleys becoming my cheap shore defenders if I had more variety to play with in the early years, ideally with different upgrade paths. In the perfect world I would also love to see ships with a ranged bombard capability but I think I read previously that there were AI difficulties with that.

A few more random thoughts from my current game (which does not include the major rebalance of r5356):
  • The "net effect" indicator of epidemic-reducing buildings does not work properly if the new building obsoletes a prior building. For instance, if you build an aqueduct in a city that does not have a public well, the net effect is correctly +4 health -4% epidemics. If, however, there already was a public well, the net effect only shows +2 health (and leaves off the -2% epidemics). The same happens transitioning from aqueducts > waterworks.
  • Realist art is unlocked by steam engine, but you can never actually build it until you unlock railroad. If I'm not mistaken it's the only one that shows up before you can start building the prerequisites.
  • At some point the 3 Gorges Dam moved all the way back to Computers... once upon a time it was one of my favorites to build when it came much sooner but now I can't imagine spending that many hammers on it. Just about every city should have power long before I get to that tech. Perhaps it could be unlocked earlier or have a different bonus?
  • There is something fluky with the "thriving in peacetime" baby boom random event. I experienced it >20 times in my game, and it bore no obvious relation to when a war was actually ending. I've never experienced this in any other playthrough though so it might not be worth worrying too much about.
I hope to get a game going with the latest rebalances over the weekend.
 
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