Realism Invictus

I completely understand this. I only wanted to point out that the strings for the other languages manage to be worse than just falling back to the english string.

If you have say a pike, an archer, a horseman and an axeman on a tile, and they all get called "western" or "polish", it's extremely confusing as you have no clue what units are actually in the stack.
The additional brokenness comes from the auto-replace I was doing, as I didn't really care about the destruction it wrought on non-English and non-German entries. The easiest way to fix those would probably be to just erase those entries, and I might well do that, if at least to make the respective files more compact.
Is there any process for translation? Editing the XML directly is exceedingly unpleasant, doubly so if there is a need to worry about special characters encoding.
No, that's exactly what it is - extremely unpleasant direct editing of the XML. Now you see why I am not particularly enthusiastic about it. :lol:
The same could be said of other resource-tied buildings, except for the Tailor, because +10% gold in every city is quite significant. Things were different when the buildings each had their tiny +2% gold bonus.
Doesn't Trading Post also grant non-insignificant economic bonuses? Basically, the intended design here was to reward civs that get ahold of some scarce resources.
I still think fur ought to be more frequent. The 0.5 per player and the two 25 RandApp don't create much (I've read up on the RandApp system - a number is generated between 0 and the max value defined there, but how is the numerical value interpreted in terms of how many resources are placed on the map?)
Yeah, seems reasonable. However, I must add IRL sources of fur would run out, and by the discovery of the New World, a lot of traditional European sources, for instance, were totally depleted. I am not sure I want the depletion mechanics in RI, so I wouldn't increase the amount too much.
I will also point out a further issue (I just discovered one hour ago about the "CIV4BonusInfos.xml" system): a lot of resources are distributed "per player" rather than per tiles. Which makes sense to some degree, but once you get outside of the narrow "default" parameters it's quite fragile. Personally, I find it interesting to have empty space that gets filled by Barbarian cities that settle in new civilizations. It happens quite naturally on a large-sized map, but the new settling civilizations, or the breakaway civilization from separatism, appearing after the map had been generated, don't trigger the spawning of the per-player resources. This feeds the excessive resource-scarcity for some key resources I have been concerned about. I was really lucky in my Germany game to have two limestones available to make paved roads and get the construction bonus for some buildings, some civs didn't even have one (before I went into the world editor and added a bunch of them).
The truth is actually even more complicated than that; the resources have different levels of importance and get placed in successive passes (for instance, the map script will first ensure there are enough vital strategic resources before even considering placing others). The end result for a particular resource, therefore, is dependent not only on what is set for it, but also on the settings for all other resources.

On the limestone specifically - yes, you got lucky. A civ is not guaranteed, nor even in most cases supposed to have two limestones. In any given game only a minority of civs will, and that is by design. Some meaningful scarcity is a part of the balance; you've probably noticed that a civ without, say, copper, is also nowhere near as defenseless in RI as it is in vanilla.
 
No, that's exactly what it is - extremely unpleasant direct editing of the XML. Now you see why I am not particularly enthusiastic about it. :lol:
When I was looking at the topic of translations for Civ4 recently, I saw some kind of tool that allows to export/import strings. I can't find back the link anymore, but I'm positive I saw it. And the "A new dawn" mod apparently had its translations handled on Transifex: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/translation-of-main-mod-help-needed.526671/ Which means they did manage to do the export/import of strings.

Setting up something like that would massively simplify the contribution of translations. Which doesn't mean they would happen immediately, but they could happen without being as much of a pain.

Doesn't Trading Post also grant non-insignificant economic bonuses? Basically, the intended design here was to reward civs that get ahold of some scarce resources.
I think the trading post is much less of an issue for two reasons:
- It becomes available significantly later. This gives more time to either expand and try to grab the resource or to establish a trade supply
- It also allows Glassware, which can be either obtained in a guaranteed way with a Great Merchant, or can also be obtained with a Great Artist getting a great work of art. This is not something that every civilization will achieve, but it's something that can be achieved independently of local map resources. This gives the player agency even if the goal may not always be achieved.

And while certainly nice, the +50% to foreign trade routes is not multiplicative so my gut-feel guess is that it's weaker than the boost from the tailor in most situations, although that heavily depends on civics, etc.

Yeah, seems reasonable. However, I must add IRL sources of fur would run out, and by the discovery of the New World, a lot of traditional European sources, for instance, were totally depleted. I am not sure I want the depletion mechanics in RI, so I wouldn't increase the amount too much.
In modern times, fur (when not replaced by plastic ersatz) has become farming-based instead of hunting-based like it used to be, so it's essentially renewable, but it's true that the traditional methods of gathering fur hit a wall. I'd be happy with any meaningful increase of fur spawning. I also feel that tundra only is very restrictive, and it can be problematic on some map generations. Since I notice that there is already a min/max latitude option available, couldn't that be used to also allow fur on grassland forests located near enough the poles? Although it could restrict fur from spawning on tundra terrain generated in temperate latitudes like Toterstra likes to do it.

I also suggest allowing salt on hills. RI doesn't really represent properly salt extracted from the sea (it would have to spawn on coastal marshes to be somewhat appropriate), but salt from mines has also been very commonly used by humanity and there is many examples of such mines in hilly or mountainous regions, the famous Himalaya salt being the most well-known.
The truth is actually even more complicated than that; the resources have different levels of importance and get placed in successive passes (for instance, the map script will first ensure there are enough vital strategic resources before even considering placing others). The end result for a particular resource, therefore, is dependent not only on what is set for it, but also on the settings for all other resources.
Does it only matter if the script runs out of "eligible" tiles to place the resource on, or will it not place resources simply because another one was selected for a given square first?
 
Below are all the changes I've made to the Totestra map generator, reflecting my preferences (you might want to alter differently to reflect yours)

Normalize Tectonic Plate Shapes
Changed lines #514 and #515 from
Python:
self.plateGrowthChanceX = 0.3
self.plateGrowthChanceY = 0.3
to
Python:
self.plateGrowthChanceX = 0.38
self.plateGrowthChanceY = 0.4
Hi,

I was reading some of this and it got me wondering. I personally play on a Totestra map where I play with multiple smaller continents and some islands. I like there to be oceans keeping civilizations apart on multiple continents and some civilizations to start isolated on an island.

But the code above seems to suggest that there is one set of parameters used for all Totestra maps, while there are Totestra map options for one or two big continents and map options for many smaller continents and islands (the continents setting few/some/many/lots). How does that work when you have one set of values for the tectonic plate generation? Or are there actually multiple values for these parameters based on this 'continents setting' and you are just showing one example?
 
Below are all the changes I've made to the Totestra map generator, reflecting my preferences (you might want to alter differently to reflect yours)
This inspired me to make my own changes.

I think one of the more annoying things with Totestra is how predictable everything is. Grassland then plains then desert, every time. While the general structure stays, I think I managed to make it more pleasant. Here are 6 consecutive normal sea level generations on a large map size.
 

Attachments

  • Minimap_01a.png
    Minimap_01a.png
    402.7 KB · Views: 26
  • Minimap_01d.png
    Minimap_01d.png
    402.8 KB · Views: 27
  • Minimap_01c.png
    Minimap_01c.png
    382.7 KB · Views: 30
  • Minimap_01f.png
    Minimap_01f.png
    381.8 KB · Views: 26
  • Minimap_01e.png
    Minimap_01e.png
    394.4 KB · Views: 24
  • Minimap_01b.png
    Minimap_01b.png
    388.9 KB · Views: 22
This inspired me to make my own changes.

I think one of the more annoying things with Totestra is how predictable everything is. Grassland then plains then desert, every time. While the general structure stays, I think I managed to make it more pleasant. Here are 6 consecutive normal sea level generations on a large map size.
This thread is so active recently that I seem to have missed the original post for this! :lol:

Your shapes look good, but... If I understand the generation model correctly, what they additionally need is more mountain ranges - those create "rain shadows" and break the monotony of obligatory central deserts. Looking at your maps, I feel there are too few continuous mountain ranges; not sure if you did something about it specifically, but I'd be interested if the terrain distribution were less predictable with more mountains.
 
Your shapes look good, but... If I understand the generation model correctly, what they additionally need is more mountain ranges - those create "rain shadows" and break the monotony of obligatory central deserts. Looking at your maps, I feel there are too few continuous mountain ranges; not sure if you did something about it specifically, but I'd be interested if the terrain distribution were less predictable with more mountains.
I didn't specifically address shapes.

Things I changed :
- How desert and plain tiles are computed (the random factor has been grown so there is more mixing of grassland and plains and a little mixing of deserts and plains)
- I enabled the north/south margins (with a reduced factor) to avoid continents constantly touching ice caps. It can still happens but not all the time.
- Tweak the river factor (needed to compensate changes around plains but I also went to get a little more rivers - it's actually possible to get rivers bordering deserts from time to time such as in the left continent of picture 1A.
- Reduced how many summits are turned into mountain peaks. As realistic as big mountain ranges can be, excessive mountains are annoying in Civ4.
- Allow oasis to have a small amount of non-desert neighbors (supposedly 1 but it seems to not quite be so fixed to one, I changed the logic from >= to <= and forgot to remove the equal sign) to avoid oasis being too rare because of the moderate desert/plain mixing.
- Increase odds of the islands terrain feature because I like it.
- Reduced marsh odds to avoid having 10 marsh tiles next to each other.
- Tried to make forests mix a bit more into the land.

As a side note, are there any opinions on how good the "unhappiness for permanent health boost" event is? In higher difficulties, the capital gets unhappy even with a single inhabitant, so I'm leaning towards avoiding the delay it creates...
 
Last edited:
This thread is so active recently that I seem to have missed the original post for this! :lol:
Heh. I think you missed my other post as well, about road construction time on forest tiles.

Hi,

I was reading some of this and it got me wondering. I personally play on a Totestra map where I play with multiple smaller continents and some islands. I like there to be oceans keeping civilizations apart on multiple continents and some civilizations to start isolated on an island.

But the code above seems to suggest that there is one set of parameters used for all Totestra maps, while there are Totestra map options for one or two big continents and map options for many smaller continents and islands (the continents setting few/some/many/lots). How does that work when you have one set of values for the tectonic plate generation? Or are there actually multiple values for these parameters based on this 'continents setting' and you are just showing one example?
I don't know the map specifics enough to answer with full confidence, but the script is littered with calculations based on the map height and the map width. So the map size selection you make at the start is just selecting from the available height and widths settings the script provides, and the script itself just makes things work according to the space available.

I also don't think that it's one continent per tectonic plate. A continent can span multiple plates from what I can tell (as in real life).
 
As a side note, are there any opinions on how good the "unhappiness for permanent health boost" event is? In higher difficulties, the capital gets unhappy even with a single inhabitant, so I'm leaning towards avoiding the delay it creates...
It's good if you can get it early enough that your first city won't feel the negative effects of it too much. Otherwise, I don't bother with it, even on Emperor difficulty. Health is pretty cheap in RI, with multiple buildings (granary, smokehouse, well, aqueduct, baths) providing health, and the resources that fuel those buildings are pretty common. Whatever you can't settle around is usually available for trade and doesn't get too pricey. Starting in jungles or near flood plains can make it more useful, but I usually just don't bother with those starts. And it definitely isn't worth taking an empire-wide happiness hit when only one of your cities has a health problem. Especially when there's a percent chance it's for nothing.

Well, I did, but now I saw it and it feels to me like a case for longer forest removal (come to think of it, it's ridiculously quick to chop down forests in Civ).
Sounds good. Will this apply to Savannah as well? If so, could the chance of cattle spawning on savannah (or vice versa) be eliminated? It's incredibly frustrating for a source cattle to be your only starting food resource, and needing animal husbandry, woodworking, and also to remove the savannah before you can finally build that pasture.
 
Sounds good. Will this apply to Savannah as well? If so, could the chance of cattle spawning on savannah (or vice versa) be eliminated? It's incredibly frustrating for a source cattle to be your only starting food resource, and needing animal husbandry, woodworking, and also to remove the savannah before you can finally build that pasture.
Nah, cleaning up savannah should be really easy. Or maybe even not required to build pastures.
 
My opinion on mountains is actually the opposite - I love mountain ranges, they create interesting chokepoints and subcontinents.
If the scripts could generate mountain ranges similar to the Carpathian mountains in the Europe scenario, that would be nice. But massive mountains where multiple cities are going to be near useless (but still incur full upkeep) don't go well with Civ4.

Can you share your changed file(s)?
Sure.
 

Attachments

I personally think that the Totestra map script is the best one we have. I also like having areas of bad terrain like mountain ranges, deserts, tundra/ice and swamps. And areas that make it harder to thrive like extensive jungles. I like not every map square having the opportunity to support a city, but that you need to build your cities around extensive mountain ranges and deserts and that they perform a strategic blocking area. I would even like it if for a long period in human history, the deep deserts (deserts only touching other desert tiles) could not support roads. All of that makes a map so much more interesting. I also like it that not every starting position is super great. Not all maps are equally difficult to win at. It is far easier to win a hand-picked map after a few restarts than just playing whatever hand you were dealt. I like to just deal with a tough starting position and wouldn't want a guarantee on some resources.

A planet is mostly a sphere, so I also don't know why continents would form more east-west than north-south. The land-mass of Afrika-Europe-Asia is more east-west, but the land-mass of North-America-South-America is more north-south with a nice choke point connection. And I don't see a reason for Earth to be an odd scenario.

So I hope the map script is not changed too much in the Total Realism.
 
I just finished a very long game and once again can confirm that this is the best Civ experience available. Thanks to the creators.
Here are some odd comments/questions (svn revision 5409, so might be partially outdated):

*It is now impossible to build Marines and Mountain Rangers once you have Special forces. In most ways the special forces supersede these two older versions, but they also lack some things. For one special forces dont provide recon aid. One could of course use Helicopters to provide that, but the Mountain Rangers are less vulnerable to anti-air, travel faster with railroads and can use terrain defense. Furthermore special forces cannot upgrade City Attack, unlike Marines. I think it would be good to either leave these older units buildable, even when special forces are available or one gives special forces ALL advantages (recon aid, City Attack promotions).

*For some reason farms dont spread irrigation that comes from an artificial source (like from the Levee). just the directly adjacent farms are irrigated. Problem doesnt exist with mechanized farms.

*It seems to me that the the bonuses the AI gets are much larger than given in the Difficulty page of the civilopedia. Most notably the city maintainace seems to be much discounted. Just some numbers from the end of my game:
I have 25 Cities, the Transoxanians 36 cities
We have the same civics, inflation is at +435%, Emperor difficulty
Comparing one of my pop 23 cities with one of its pop 23 cities the numbers are
Accounding to the hovering info I pay 261.88 number of city maintainance, it pays 77.08 number of city maintainance
So even though his empire is 50% larger than mine, I pay more than triple the number of city maintainance (same civics)
The number are actually ok considering the Ai performace, but it would be interesting to know the actual advantages of the AI.

*Close to the very end of the game I encountered a bug, where suddenly the AI got many 100 new units in a single turn. At one point it had approximately 200 units in total and the next turn there appeared 1500 Armored Cars out of nothing. Unfortunately I dont have a save. Considering that this never happened to me before it is maybe some unlikely save game corruption.

*In the graphs, the color of Transoxania is almost identical to the background and therefore hardly visible.

*The US supermarket generates one unhealthiness when Firearms are available. It is a neat little idea. However, the unhealthiness should probably also generated by semiautomatic firearms and assault rifles.
 
*Close to the very end of the game I encountered a bug, where suddenly the AI got many 100 new units in a single turn. At one point it had approximately 200 units in total and the next turn there appeared 1500 Armored Cars out of nothing. Unfortunately I dont have a save. Considering that this never happened to me before it is maybe some unlikely save game corruption.
I remember there were reports in the past about the same issue, as for myself I've only seen sudden temporary spikes in military power score some months ago which I assume was the same thing - some save will probably be necessary (ideally just before they get a sudden influx of units), so if anyone sees it again, try to catch and post here, I could try to investigate.
 
Nah, cleaning up savannah should be really easy. Or maybe even not required to build pastures.
Only reason why I sometimes remove savannah is to make place for the forest to spread into the direction I want it to.

But again - I have changed my settings, so forest, savannah and scrubs spread much more and faster than they normally do with the default settings. And my workes can cut them down when they grow into areas, where I do not want them.
 
It would be interesting to have the ability to plant forests at the end of medieval or start of Renaissance. But it should be time consuming to do so, so that it is not an efficient source of production.

 
TBH that particular act is more what lumbermill improvement represents; given how lumbermills function for centuries on the same tile, it is strongly implied that a lot of replanting is happening there, and that's how most modern lumber operations work. The topic of planting forests has already been discussed several times. I haven't seen any compelling evidence that humanity has managed to create a single forest "tile" throughout its history on a "tile" that used to not be forested.
 
*It is now impossible to build Marines and Mountain Rangers once you have Special forces. In most ways the special forces supersede these two older versions, but they also lack some things. For one special forces dont provide recon aid. One could of course use Helicopters to provide that, but the Mountain Rangers are less vulnerable to anti-air, travel faster with railroads and can use terrain defense. Furthermore special forces cannot upgrade City Attack, unlike Marines. I think it would be good to either leave these older units buildable, even when special forces are available or one gives special forces ALL advantages (recon aid, City Attack promotions).
Thanks, that's a good observation. I'll consider how to address this best.
*For some reason farms dont spread irrigation that comes from an artificial source (like from the Levee). just the directly adjacent farms are irrigated. Problem doesnt exist with mechanized farms.
Interesting! I'll investigate.
*It seems to me that the the bonuses the AI gets are much larger than given in the Difficulty page of the civilopedia. Most notably the city maintainace seems to be much discounted. Just some numbers from the end of my game:
I have 25 Cities, the Transoxanians 36 cities
We have the same civics, inflation is at +435%, Emperor difficulty
Comparing one of my pop 23 cities with one of its pop 23 cities the numbers are
Accounding to the hovering info I pay 261.88 number of city maintainance, it pays 77.08 number of city maintainance
So even though his empire is 50% larger than mine, I pay more than triple the number of city maintainance (same civics)
The number are actually ok considering the Ai performace, but it would be interesting to know the actual advantages of the AI.
There shouldn't be anything wrong with it, but I'll get it on my checklist to test it.
*Close to the very end of the game I encountered a bug, where suddenly the AI got many 100 new units in a single turn. At one point it had approximately 200 units in total and the next turn there appeared 1500 Armored Cars out of nothing. Unfortunately I dont have a save. Considering that this never happened to me before it is maybe some unlikely save game corruption.
Oh, this is a bug that I very much want to find and fix before the next release! It's a shame that you couldn't provide the saves.
*In the graphs, the color of Transoxania is almost identical to the background and therefore hardly visible.
Noted and will likely be adjusted.
*The US supermarket generates one unhealthiness when Firearms are available. It is a neat little idea. However, the unhealthiness should probably also generated by semiautomatic firearms and assault rifles.
It's all that musket smoke that's really bad for your health! :lol:

In all seriousness, though, thanks, well spotted. That's an oversight from older times when those weren't separate resources.
 
The topic of planting forests has already been discussed several times. I haven't seen any compelling evidence that humanity has managed to create a single forest "tile" throughout its history on a "tile" that used to not be forested.
The problem is much less creating a forest where there never used to be a forest, and much more creating back a forest where there used to be one. There is a strong incentive to cut down most forests during the early eras of the game, but no way to grow back any of it, which is completely unrealistic and can be quite annoying in the late game.

Countries with quickly expanding populations that keep cutting down forests may give the impression that growing them back is not happening, but if you look at the EU, forested areas have been increasing for decades (despite an increase in logging output).

In the EU, the forest area increased from 1990 to 2020 by about 10% or 14 million hectares, equal to the total land area of Hungary and Slovakia combined.
And about 3 times as much since 1950.

Although examples of humanity creating forests where there used not to be also exist. There is a 13.000 square kilometers (nearly 0.01% of Earth's dryland area - close enough to what we could call a "tile" on a huge map) forest in Europe in a place where there used to be nearly no forest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landes_forest
In all seriousness, though, thanks, well spotted. That's an oversight from older times when those weren't separate resources.
The +1 unhealthiness is already a stretch, more for flavor reasons than because it really makes sense, I assume that the change would only keep the penalty active, not trigger potentially 2 or 3 unhealthiness at once?

If there should be an american source of unhealthiness, it would rather be something like processed food... But a game like Civ is not well-suited to deal with the dynamics behind modern sources of disease.
 
Back
Top Bottom