Realism Invictus

Maybe Corporations should work as Great Art?
Mean, instead spread like religion should give some passive resources? Ford Motor Company is Corporation..

Something in Style:
[Require Great Merchant]
Great Corporation - MacDonald, give +3 Potato Resource (you later can trade them for passive gold income)
Microsoft - Give +3 Microchips Resource
etc

In the modern era, we have the beginnings of globalism and it is easier to calm tempers and have relatively good relations when you exchange raw materials with others and free trade is promoted
 
wow. south china is much stronger than north china.
north china UU come very late, weak and quickly become useless.
Chu-ko-nu is like hybrid offensive and defensive unit make them useless in both,
come very late, the time they unlock people already have longbow
Iron pagoda is cavalry which have cover promote which only good when you attack archer which never leave the city which make them pointless
mean while south china, gun powder unit come early, cheap, very strong, very useful in longtime. UI very strong too

I don't get it. Isn't china supposed ancient to late medieval superpower irl? But they very unplayable until you unlock protectionism which boots their UI, then become little playable
 
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I don't know about China but I find Austronesia most annoying, they become superpower 2/3 of games if they are present on the map, same happens in Earth scenario.
Never saw France, Germany or America becoming strong. (both in random games or in Earth scenario)
 
I don't know about China but I find Austronesia most annoying, they become superpower 2/3 of games if they are present on the map, same happens in Earth scenario.
Never saw France, Germany or America becoming strong. (both in random games or in Earth scenario)
I argee with german, they little weak but france is pretty strong and america, I think, one of strongest civ if not the strongest
they all have unit to carry early, mid, late game.
france swordman have 1 first strike unique, german swordman have 30% vs melee combine (normal only have 25), 10% city defense. both of them have their gunpowder unit stronger than normal.
And america, America have irregular, minute man which is OP, start with drill 2, land tactic, +25% vs gunpowder. They are mongol of gunpowder age, just spam irregular, cheap, strong, very longevity. And after that they have galting gun, early machine gun, machine gun is game changer and they have that early. Their marine corp is useless, why, because by that time, they already won.
german is late game civ, they may weak early but strong later on.
france and america have UI available early (I don't know about earth map but if in random map, they have good start like france have wine nearbly, america have a lot of pasture, they all steamroll whole continent.

mean while china is just decline, weak early, all their strong point avaiable in medieval, but all are borderline useless and then just decline,
all their gunpowder have weaker stat than normal gun powder unit (line infantry, grenadier), survive renaissance is miracle, also no later era uu to carry the game.
 
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A very interesting topic, this about the purely military strength of the individual civilizations - but don't forget that the "strength" (traits) and religious holdings of the current leaders also matter quite a lot....

It's all this that makes "our" game so good - that "everything" counts and that you just can't focus on a single area to win a battle/a war/a game.
 
A very interesting topic, this about the purely military strength of the individual civilizations - but don't forget that the "strength" (traits) and religious holdings of the current leaders also matter quite a lot....

It's all this that makes "our" game so good - that "everything" counts and that you just can't focus on a single area to win a battle/a war/a game.
Ah, talking about religion.
Taoism. yes Taoism. No leader favorite Taoism except china.
Only china use it.
Pros: guaranteed religious wonder
Cons: you going become targeted by all other civ, no bonus gold, negetive diplomat
bonus is weak, I think weakest religious out there

China is weakest civ in the game. by large margin. maybe above non-playable civ a little
 
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I dont find anything about that in the manual so I ask here: Does the first type of road (that one which helps to connect Ressources) help to spread Religion?
 
I dont find anything about that in the manual so I ask here: Does the first type of road (that one which helps to connect Ressources) help to spread Religion?
Anything that provides trade routes (including cart paths) should help religion spread.
 
Ah, talking about religion.
Taoism. yes Taoism. No leader favorite Taoism except china.
Only china use it.
Pros: guaranteed religious wonder
Cons: you going become targeted by all other civ, no bonus gold, negetive diplomat
bonus is weak, I think weakest religious out there

China is weakest civ in the game. by large margin. maybe above non-playable civ a little
Taoism is designed to be used by civs with limited access to luxury resources - as it suggests right there in the civilopedia. You lose out on happiness from gold, silver, gems, and pearls but your temples give you a base +2 and the Chi Savant gives you another +1 so it seems well balanced to me. As for diplomacy, it's on you a bit to help your religion spread and convert a few neighbors.
 
Taoism is designed to be used by civs with limited access to luxury resources - as it suggests right there in the civilopedia. You lose out on happiness from gold, silver, gems, and pearls but your temples give you a base +2 and the Chi Savant gives you another +1 so it seems well balanced to me. As for diplomacy, it's on you a bit to help your religion spread and convert a few neighbors.
spread religion is not that easy.
unlike other religion, taosim need alchemy and astrology tech which unlock after paper
judaism need paper (unlock after guild)
hinduism need guild
budhism need calendar
other unlocked by their own tech.

So by the time you unlock taoism missionary all other already spread their religion, convert them is no easy task unless it is their leader favorite religion.
 
So my another rant about china.
Turn out not only their gunpowder units are weak
Their pre-gunpowder units are weak too
their axe-man, man-at arm only have 15% bonus city attack while most other civ have 25%
pikeman have 20% city defense, less than 25% of normal pikeman
Their horse archer, late horse archer weaker than korea, japan, mongol,... basical weaker than most of the civ that have late horse archer (china have 0-1 first strike, other have 1-2 first strike)
only units they have stronger than normal is chariot ,cataphract and knight (which only unlock if you choose certain civic and leader)
just wow.
I mean, china supposed to be roman level but they are just barbarian with canal, canal is not even strong, 2 canal is weaker than watermill and cottage.
 
Hi
did RL change the way trade routes work?
In my current game im on the top of a continent. My neighbor is egypt and the only way to have contact with the other civs is by passaging egypt.
Now egypt closed the borders but I can still trade with ressources with other civs and still have trade routes.
I dont know whether it was different in vanilla but in my memory I should not be able to trade resources or have trade routes to anyone else.
 
Hi Timothyy. Personally, I was a bit surprised when I saw your comments about Northern China weakness. But upon further reflection - yeah, unit-wise they are quite weak, sure. And I also don't remember AI Northern China being a major power in a lategame (in my games anyway). Maybe AI can't handle them all that well 🤔 Never thought about it.

However! I always found this civ OK when I played it myself. Their leader traits are nice, and the courhouses with pagan temples are good buildings. You brought up Romans, right? Well, if there were no balance changes I'm not aware of, a Chinese courthouse has the economic effect similar (but slightly better) to their unique barracks. Barracks are earlier and cheaper of course but courthouses give more specialist slots which is almost OP. Especially scientist, merchant and engineer slots - so useful. Also, their Courthouse has the synergy with their pagan temple, and these types of interplays are always great in this game, per my experience.

Canals - yeah, they are meh. But still, an ability to make production out of thin air that early in the game is useful. May save you on a bad start.

As for the units themselves - I mostly agree but not about all units. For example:
- Axeman - Their axemen are generally worse during city capturing combat, true. But in my experience, AI often uses swordsmen and spears as a city defender (and of course warbands/levies, a classic). VS these they are same as regular axemen. Also, chinese axemen are much-much better in open field and in city defense. Unless that got changed recently, of course. Correct me if I'm wrong - do they have 10% strength vs melee and 15% strength (not attack!) in cities? If they still have that, this unit may be used instead (or with) bowmen in city defense. Also, really useful vs something like Celtic / Greek / Aztec UU. I certainly remember a game where they saved me against aggressive Celtic neighbor (and that's no joke!)
- weaker horse archer - true. However, a weaker horse archer is better than no horse archer at all (I've always found civs with access to 5s HA more versatile in Classical Era than those with 5s horsemen)
- UU cavalry - 25% archery bonus increases their odds vs archers, primary city defender, correct. Which means - they have slightly better odds when dealing damage in city combat, compared to regular knights (and you do want to use cavalry for collateral damage on city defenders, so that's nice)
- Cho ko nu - yeah, pretty weak UU in my opinion (though collateral damage is always good). You can try that protective leader Chinese have, though. Archery tradition + free drill I + stacked XP from diff sources = slightly better unit. I tried that a couple of times - not as fun as protective Korea but still fun
And something you didn't mention - spears! Unless that got changed, of course 🤔 But if I remember correctly, English, German and Chinese have the best spears in the whole game. And that may be utilized in an early rush OR early defense. Really good, do not underestimate it.

But overall - South Chinese are much-much better, I'd agree. They are like top5, and Northern China is mid to weak (but not the weakest)
 
Sorry, quoting didn't work the first time. New here 😅
So my another rant about china.
Turn out not only their gunpowder units are weak
Their pre-gunpowder units are weak too
their axe-man, man-at arm only have 15% bonus city attack while most other civ have 25%
pikeman have 20% city defense, less than 25% of normal pikeman
Their horse archer, late horse archer weaker than korea, japan, mongol,... basical weaker than most of the civ that have late horse archer (china have 0-1 first strike, other have 1-2 first strike)
only units they have stronger than normal is chariot ,cataphract and knight (which only unlock if you choose certain civic and leader)
just wow.
I mean, china supposed to be roman level but they are just barbarian with canal, canal is not even strong, 2 canal is weaker than watermill and cottage.
 
Hi Timothyy. Personally, I was a bit surprised when I saw your comments about Northern China weakness. But upon further reflection - yeah, unit-wise they are quite weak, sure. And I also don't remember AI Northern China being a major power in a lategame (in my games anyway). Maybe AI can't handle them all that well 🤔 Never thought about it.

However! I always found this civ OK when I played it myself. Their leader traits are nice, and the courhouses with pagan temples are good buildings. You brought up Romans, right? Well, if there were no balance changes I'm not aware of, a Chinese courthouse has the economic effect similar (but slightly better) to their unique barracks. Barracks are earlier and cheaper of course but courthouses give more specialist slots which is almost OP. Especially scientist, merchant and engineer slots - so useful. Also, their Courthouse has the synergy with their pagan temple, and these types of interplays are always great in this game, per my experience.

Canals - yeah, they are meh. But still, an ability to make production out of thin air that early in the game is useful. May save you on a bad start.

As for the units themselves - I mostly agree but not about all units. For example:
- Axeman - Their axemen are generally worse during city capturing combat, true. But in my experience, AI often uses swordsmen and spears as a city defender (and of course warbands/levies, a classic). VS these they are same as regular axemen. Also, chinese axemen are much-much better in open field and in city defense. Unless that got changed recently, of course. Correct me if I'm wrong - do they have 10% strength vs melee and 15% strength (not attack!) in cities? If they still have that, this unit may be used instead (or with) bowmen in city defense. Also, really useful vs something like Celtic / Greek / Aztec UU. I certainly remember a game where they saved me against aggressive Celtic neighbor (and that's no joke!)
- weaker horse archer - true. However, a weaker horse archer is better than no horse archer at all (I've always found civs with access to 5s HA more versatile in Classical Era than those with 5s horsemen)
- UU cavalry - 25% archery bonus increases their odds vs archers, primary city defender, correct. Which means - they have slightly better odds when dealing damage in city combat, compared to regular knights (and you do want to use cavalry for collateral damage on city defenders, so that's nice)
- Cho ko nu - yeah, pretty weak UU in my opinion (though collateral damage is always good). You can try that protective leader Chinese have, though. Archery tradition + free drill I + stacked XP from diff sources = slightly better unit. I tried that a couple of times - not as fun as protective Korea but still fun
And something you didn't mention - spears! Unless that got changed, of course 🤔 But if I remember correctly, English, German and Chinese have the best spears in the whole game. And that may be utilized in an early rush OR early defense. Really good, do not underestimate it.

But overall - South Chinese are much-much better, I'd agree. They are like top5, and Northern China is mid to weak (but not the weakest)
-Yes their axeman have 10% melee but their man-at-arm do not. So in theory axeman is better at openfield and city defense but in practice who use them in that situation anyway?If open field, it skimisher job. If in city defense, have bowman and few skimisher that can kill enemies out right is better than have few axeman that do nothing inside city, waiting enemies attack.
-About spearman, chinese spearman actually good but spearman itself is odd unit. They only good at defense, accurately openfield defense, against charge cavalry unit. China have 25% bonus to warband and axeman. Like axeman above, it only good on paper cause if you meet axeman and warband on open field, skimisher will defense your unit, skimisher will kill them. So that bonus of chinese spearman actually is non-existent in practice 🤔.
- UU cavalry, you are not wrong but well, they are Unique Unit, they supposed to be strong not "nice". I mean, look at other civ UU, most of them can out right kill archer station in city. Mongol, south china, japan,.. those civ have unit that have same era (actually they all came earlier), they all overperform china. China UU actually good if they came earlier, even weaker, but they came too late, all other civ must have longbow already, that make them weak.
-- Cho ko nu, yeah, they weak, they came very late, need 3 more tech than longbow, why use them when you already have longbow? If you rush longbow, you can even found archer guild doctrine, which is one of strongest doctrine in the game. No reason cho-ko-nu need exist.
And another reason why their UU weak. upgrade them is totally not worth. Cho ko nu to grenadier, iron pagoda to cavalry - what the use of grenadier with bonus city defense and cavalry bonus archer in gunpowder era?

Actually I brought up Roman for more historic reason. Irl China was often viewed as the Roman of the east, except they do not fall, and currently world power, rival US. But in RI, their power are just equal non-playable civ, unlike their counterpart-Roman, which is superpower of early game and continue pretty strong later. China weak early, maybe playable medieval and then decline.
I admit their courthouse is pretty strong but need some wonders like Great library, cheomseongdae to pull off, which need some good start. But if I have good start I can win with any civ, no need for china.
And can you suggest me some civ weaker than china? I'm not played every civ but read through pretty much of them. No civ I find theoretical weaker than china (Maybe celtic)
 
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It helped me understand that we evaluate strength of RI nations a bit differently, which is why we fundamentally disagree on China (as well as America and Celts, for example). I'll expand on that in the end but firstly want to address your other points (sorry for the long post ahead):
- "who use them in that situation anyway?" - me :D. But okay, to be serious - I agree, in most cases you don't want to use generic 5+25%(Att) axemen in city defense. Because that's impractical. But the Northern Chinese axeman is not generic! They effectively get 5+25%(Def) without any perks (since the primary city offender of that time is Melee, and they have 10% vs Melee). That is comparable with 4+50%(Def) of bowmen, and you get them 2-3 techs earlier! Also, these axemen have better chances against civs with some of the 5 strength Melee UUs - or vs axemen generally, including roman legionaries.
And the key thing I forgot to mention in previous reply is their ability to counter-attack. Meaning: A)if Chinese defends with just bowmen - they're good on defense but they can't use bowmen for counter-attacking the opponent; they need some time/resources to build an offensive B)if Chinese defends with bowmen+axemen – they can almost momentarily pick healed axemen for retaliation wave. Ultimately, that way you're saving a bit of production/time (for example, bulding 2 bowmen + 2 axemen instead of 4 bowmen)

- "spearman itself is odd unit. ... skimisher will defense your unit" - I generally agree, though I think you underestimate the power of early rush with spears. It works with most nations (just timely build 1-2 spears for protection/clearup and a bunch of freshmeat shortswords) but obviously better with Agg/Conq leaders, Persia and civs with strong spears/shortswords. Since Chinese spears are good and they have both Agg and Conq leaders, they are well suited for this. Better than, say, non-Conq Mongolian/Zulu/Russian/Polish/etc. (if I remember their bonuses correctly)
As for defense - what about stacks 10+ units high? (: You can build 10-15 skirmishers and 0 spears, sure. But I find it impractical since skirmishers are meh for any city warfare, while spears can be used there (as a last defender/clearup unit). So I'd say it is better to fortify your stack and use 4-6 skirmishers and cavalry units for attacks every couple of turns. And Chinese Spears are very useful when fortifying (and in City Defense, too)

P.S. just a note on defense as Chinese - they also have slightly stronger 3s Archers, weaker but present Horse Archers, and defensive 6s swords, right? I'd say that paints itself as an easier Classical defense in general. If you use combinations of Chinese units (archer, spear, axeman, horse archer, sword, recon/cavalry) right, you have a chance at defending from anybody pre-Medieval, including Celts/Greeks/Romans/Hindi/etc. And there are some production-saving capabilities for counter-attack as well, even if more difficult due to attacking stats

- on Chinese UUs in general - I agree, UUs should feel game-changing. The only counterpoint I have is that not every UU in this mod is busted. British Royal Marines is one of a kind that comes to mind - extremely powerful in its era, obliterating anything except some cavalry/recon UUs of its era (and those pose a threat only outside cities, useless on defense). But not every UU is like that, aren't they? Many are either situationally useful or simply underwhelming (like Northern Chinese). I wouldn't say Japanese Wako projects the same kind of power as Marines in its era, for example (and Wako is one of the stronger UUs)
But yeah, I'd definitely appreciate small buffs of all "weaker" UUs, including Northern Chinese.
P.S. City Defense Grenadiers are a meme, for sure :D but even that may become useful - when just captured a city and there's enemy army nearby, for example

- And the last one is a point about Courthouse and weaker/stronger civs in general. I consider economy bonuses in RI much more valuable than warfare ones (generally - unless war bonus resembles Royal Marines, Sreni Pattiyodaha, Jaguar or smth like that). And that's why I think Chinese is not the weakest civ. Their Pagan Temples and Courthouses make them "pass the test" for me. I totally disagree with a point that Great Library and Cheomseongdae are "required" for their courthouses to be useful. These Wonders are valuable, appreciated, desired - but not required. If anything, food and happiness resources are much more of a deal breaker if you want to use a bunch of specialists in all your cities. But the nice thing is that combo of Chinese paganism + courthouse boosts the existing growth, so that's partially resolved. And Chinese Courthouses work THROUGHOUT the game, compared to, say, Berber Baths or Roman Barracks. That's something
P.S. Canals can be useful in early game, too. A saver of a weaker-production spot. Not a lot of civs have that in their pocket

As for the Celts and Americans mentioned in the beginning of the post, I value them opposite to you. Meaning - I think Celts are kinda OP due to early&powerful UI, early&powerful UU + army compared to German/English roster. While Americans (for me personally) are one of the weaker nations due to majority of the bonuses being lategame-ish. Except some Nordic units and occasional Ranches, I guess. Other "weaker" ones... Well, it depends on the leaders, too 🤔 But generally, nations alone - German, French and Ethiopians all seem weak to me (exclusively due to their early game - I know they can & do bloom later). Berbers have early game bonuses but not for long (all Pagan temples get obsolete, & their UB is short-lived and only moderately impactful), so maybe them too. Something like that
 
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It helped me understand that we evaluate strength of RI nations a bit differently, which is why we fundamentally disagree on China (as well as America and Celts, for example). I'll expand on that in the end but firstly want to address your other points (sorry for the long post ahead):
- "who use them in that situation anyway?" - me :D. But okay, to be serious - I agree, in most cases you don't want to use generic 5+25%(Att) axemen in city defense. Because that's impractical. But the Northern Chinese axeman is not generic! They effectively get 5+25%(Def) without any perks (since the primary city offender of that time is Melee, and they have 10% vs Melee). That is comparable with 4+50%(Def) of bowmen, and you get them 2-3 techs earlier! Also, these axemen have better chances against civs with some of the 5 strength Melee UUs - or vs axemen generally, including roman legionaries.
And the key thing I forgot to mention in previous reply is their ability to counter-attack. Meaning: A)if Chinese defends with just bowmen - they're good on defense but they can't use bowmen for counter-attacking the opponent; they need some time/resources to build an offensive B)if Chinese defends with bowmen+axemen – they can almost momentarily pick healed axemen for retaliation wave. Ultimately, that way you're saving a bit of production/time (for example, bulding 2 bowmen + 2 axemen instead of 4 bowmen)

- "spearman itself is odd unit. ... skimisher will defense your unit" - I generally agree, though I think you underestimate the power of early rush with spears. It works with most nations (just timely build 1-2 spears for protection/clearup and a bunch of freshmeat shortswords) but obviously better with Agg/Conq leaders, Persia and civs with strong spears/shortswords. Since Chinese spears are good and they have both Agg and Conq leaders, they are well suited for this. Better than, say, non-Conq Mongolian/Zulu/Russian/Polish/etc. (if I remember their bonuses correctly)
As for defense - what about stacks 10+ units high? :) You can build 10-15 skirmishers and 0 spears, sure. But I find it impractical since skirmishers are meh for any city warfare, while spears can be used there (as a last defender/clearup unit). So I'd say it is better to fortify your stack and use 4-6 skirmishers and cavalry units for attacks every couple of turns. And Chinese Spears are very useful when fortifying (and in City Defense, too)

P.S. just a note on defense as Chinese - they also have slightly stronger 3s Archers, weaker but present Horse Archers, and defensive 6s swords, right? I'd say that paints itself as an easier Classical defense in general. If you use combinations of Chinese units (archer, spear, axeman, horse archer, sword, recon/cavalry) right, you have a chance at defending from anybody pre-Medieval, including Celts/Greeks/Romans/Hindi/etc. And there are some production-saving capabilities for counter-attack as well, even if more difficult due to attacking stats

- on Chinese UUs in general - I agree, UUs should feel game-changing. The only counterpoint I have is that not every UU in this mod is busted. British Royal Marines is one of a kind that comes to mind - extremely powerful in its era, obliterating anything except some cavalry/recon UUs of its era (and those pose a threat only outside cities, useless on defense). But not every UU is like that, aren't they? Many are either situationally useful or simply underwhelming (like Northern Chinese). I wouldn't say Japanese Wako projects the same kind of power as Marines in its era, for example (and Wako is one of the stronger UUs)
But yeah, I'd definitely appreciate small buffs of all "weaker" UUs, including Northern Chinese.
P.S. City Defense Grenadiers are a meme, for sure :D but even that may become useful - when just captured a city and there's enemy army nearby, for example

- And the last one is a point about Courthouse and weaker/stronger civs in general. I consider economy bonuses in RI much more valuable than warfare ones (generally - unless war bonus resembles Royal Marines, Sreni Pattiyodaha, Jaguar or smth like that). And that's why I think Chinese is not the weakest civ. Their Pagan Temples and Courthouses make them "pass the test" for me. I totally disagree with a point that Great Library and Cheomseongdae are "required" for their courthouses to be useful. These Wonders are valuable, appreciated, desired - but not required. If anything, food and happiness resources are much more of a deal breaker if you want to use a bunch of specialists in all your cities. But the nice thing is that combo of Chinese paganism + courthouse boosts the existing growth, so that's partially resolved. And Chinese Courthouses work THROUGHOUT the game, compared to, say, Berber Baths or Roman Barracks. That's something
P.S. Canals can be useful in early game, too. A saver of a weaker-production spot. Not a lot of civs have that in their pocket

As for the Celts and Americans mentioned in the beginning of the post, I value them opposite to you. Meaning - I think Celts are kinda OP due to early&powerful UI, early&powerful UU + army compared to German/English roster. While Americans (for me personally) are one of the weaker nations due to majority of the bonuses being lategame-ish. Except some Nordic units and occasional Ranches, I guess. Other "weaker" ones... Well, it depends on the leaders, too 🤔 But generally, nations alone - German, French and Ethiopians all seem weak to me (exclusively due to their early game - I know they can & do bloom later). Berbers have early game bonuses but not for long (all Pagan temples get obsolete, & their UB is short-lived and only moderately impactful), so maybe them too. Something like that
-axeman: they are comparable in str with bowman but why bowman always preferred cause bowman have first strike and can promote city defense. That nice to have axeman defense your city but I would much more happier if my axeman can do better job at attack the city instead of defense it. City defense are just meant to hold long enough until your recon or cavalry arrive, AI in RI is not suiciding attack your city unless it have really high change capture it, sometime the trick is leave your city not too strong to bait enemies attack and you send your reinforcements wipe out enemies stack next turn.
-spearman: I do not denied the usefulness of spearman, I denied the usefulness of chinese spearman. They have 25% bonus defense against warband and axeman. In city defense they are not strong as chinese axeman, in open field, I already said the reason. In city attackl, all spearmans are same.

-their archer, I would not say they really stronger, they are weakest among asian civ, japan, mongol, korea and egypt,.. although those have less 10% bonus city defense but they have more first strike than china. First strike is much more value than tiny 10%. Chinese archer only stronger than the civ that can beat you to death with their melee troops
(Why everything in china weaker than all other asian counterpart? I asking a real question? So unrealistic)

But after all, have in-capturable city does not win me a game, enemies still able pillage my improvement, I need to fight back and expand.

And AI rarely attack you in classical era either, unless it is small cramped map. Classical era is about capture some nearby barbarian city, china don't have unit for that, it will cost them a lot, barbarian city have a lot of archer.

-Sure, after all everything is useful, problem is how I can capture a city with suck meme unit. Disband them is a waste, but upgrade them is costly and not worth.
-Problem with china is they hardly to expand so they won't have many luxury resource. If they turtling they need those wonders. If they try to expand, it will cost them deadly cause their offensive unit are weak, need more units to do the work and need repace them more often. They can't turtling forever because they have nothing carry the game later.
Canal is 2 hammer, a hill with forest give same bonus. And I don't want a bad city if I play china, they are very hard to expand, bad city will tank science and economies.
Suck a dilemma civ.

-economy bonuses surely are nice but it less matter when you facing higher difficult, no matter how good your economies bonus, you will never outrun AI economies. But you can slow them down, with sword and gun. Have good warfare mean you need less unit to do the job, mean less maintain, less loss mean less you have rebuild, war less costly,it bring much better economies than any economies bonus you could think, and it make your enemies economies shinks cause they have spend their hammer to war instead of just sitting there and spend all to science or gold.


-Hmm. I just look back, celt certaintly look really OP, both their non-unique and unique unit are strong. I thought their UI replace windmill but turnout they are fort, which is pretty OP. Just very lacking late game power, if I managed build up good lead early game, I can win a game.
America is OP cause their UI can make them early powerhouse with few nearby cattles, they can just play tall (or wide their early unit no weak either) until unlock flintlock firearm, not even need sulfur cause their minute man don't need resource. At that point, they can easily bulldoze their neighboring, steal their tech and vassal them. Their power then just go up.
Germany is not weak by anymean. They have +25% melee attack warband, their axeman +25 city attack +10 att archer, their military are one of strongest in the game, make slaughter stock early barbarian, spearman +40% archer which is ridiculous, you upgrade veteran military earlier to spearman, they will melt archer like butter. They are lack of early economies but they become dominating force later .
French strong. Their UI is bonus happy, which is really strong if their starting location have it, their early units are no weak. Axeman 25% city attack and 10 att archer like german, very strong, levy 25% bonus melee and charge horse, strong too, they can safely and easily hit gunpowder era and keep gaining power and dominating. Nothing weaker than china.
I not played Ethiopian yet, but they have UI increase happy like france, early plantation, UB look strong too, unit, UU are no weak either, their hussar is only hussar that have bonus against gunpowder unit, very nice, less worry about dooms stack of line infantry mid game, their UU oromo warrior look very strong, bonus city attack, bonus hill, drill 2 and drill 3, they can potential taking a city without a scratch . It is civ that depended on starting location, maybe mid but no weakling like Chinese, I will try test it sometime.
 
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We surely play this mod differently. I think I can learn some of the things you mentioned (like baiting AI, for example) - maybe that will help me with Titan/Deity. Meanwhile, I'll share my perspective on what you said (i.e., how that applies to how I play):

- "AI in RI is not suiciding attack your city unless it have really high change capture it" - the thing is - in my experience, that can happen rather OFTEN (: If you do not prepare enough defenses, of course. Meaning: while 2 bowmen in the city are usually enough (and Chinese can swap that with bowman+axeman), sometimes you need more (like 3-4 bowmen or 2 bowmen and 1-2 axemen). If we're talking higher difficulties, AI there can still do doomstacks, true. And almost any Classical era doomstack can take on 2 unpromoted bowmen no problem. So that's why I think this Chinese bonus translates better on higher difficulties (though admittedly I mostly played Chinese on Monarch)
P.S. in RI you can promote melee units to City Defense if you really need to 🤔

- "In city defense they are not strong as chinese axeman" - whilst true, I find this reference a bit confusing. Previously you said that Chinese axeman is not that useful because sometimes you need a weaker defender, right? Well, this spear certainly fits the criteria - stronger than a warband, weaker (and cheaper!) than an axeman or bowman. To add to that, I find that 1 spear per city (of any nation) is viable strategy if AI makes horses. Meaning: of course horses die either way, but without spearmen they will face archer/melee/what have you, and that usually leads to higher odds AND higher damage (compared to cities which have a single spear that faces any cavalry offender firsthand). Ultimately, that translates to something like 3.8-4(out of 4) bowman instead of 3-3.6(out of 4) bowman (per each cavalry attack). So yeah, ANY spear may be used in city defense - but Chinese and, say, Egyptian one are better at that (because they can take out non-cavalry attackers more consistently).
And I will repeat my views on plain defense with spears, just in case you missed it. I find it impractical to build 10+ skirmishers/10+ horsemen/etc. to face any doomstack of that era – much better to use 4-6 of these and fortify your stacks (to make skirmishers/etc. less vulnerable to Melee/Archer/etc. counter-attacks). And Chinese spear is great for that - it can kill cavalry (that easilly kills skirms), it can kill archery & weak melee units (that are alright at killing at 4s skirms), etc. It is more of pre-bronze bonus but it still exists.

- "only stronger than the civ that can beat you to death with their melee troops" - there are a lot of those, though. Celts, German, Greek, Roman, English, Carthaginian, Nguni, Norse - and that's off the top of my mind. Also every Aggressive/Conqueror leader in the game. I thinks vs all of these 10% bonus is more valuable than FS. But sure, FS isn't nothing when you are already more powerful than your opponent

- "in-capturable city does not win me a game" - true, it only helps you survive on higher difficulties. Just in case, I'll repeat that I don't find Northern China OP or anything. Mid civ at their best, kinda weak at their worst. Surely Hindi, Roman, South China, etc. are much better. But the notion they are "the weakest civ" seems ridiculous to me while smth like America or Germany is in the game. More on that later

- "Classical era is about capture some nearby barbarian city" - that's something I disagree with wholeheartedly. In my opinion, you can (and should) do a lot of expansion in Classical. When necessary - through conquest, when not - through settling. The Chinese courthouse helps them with either, leader traits are well suited, too. As for Barbarian cities - well, they are always easier preventable than dealt with. Fog busting is still a thing in RI. So if a player let Barbarian settle a valuable land nearby, it's mostly on the player (again - in my opinion).

- "bad city will tank science and economies." - I think that's true of ANY civ. You always prefer better cities, sure. But what do you do if you don't have that? (Say, you spawned in tundra or desert). Germany and American and many others can just give up their game entirely at that point, because they can't boost weaker production spot and they don't have enough eco bonuses to justify early expansion in all directions.
Chinese on the other hand can do both. They will usually suffer in later eras, true. And Germany/America may try to survive until better times when their bonuses kick in - also true. But in early game China will always prevail over Germany/America - and in my experience, that is true of AI as well. I never saw China be a major power in Industrial but they are quite a powerhouse in Classical and early Medieval. But after that point they usually get weakened and eaten by other AIs, that is definitely true. You don't have to roleplay it like that, though.

- "it less matter when you facing higher difficult" - that's definitely not what my experience with this game was. The only time when I imagined Germany (and strong army roster in general) as OP was when I played on noble. After transitioning to Monarch and higher, I began to value eco bonuses more.

Notes on civs you mentioned:
I played a lot of Germany, French, Hungary, Ethiopia, and America on Emperor (dozens of games per each). Unless I played them completely wrong (which is possible), I found that they are definitely more map-dependent then China/Hindi/Roman or what have you. Germany doesn't have early eco bonuses, as you admit, and I find it their main weakness. AI easily outtechs Germany player, making their units almost useless. But if you survive, you may have some chances later, true.

On paper, French, Hungarian and Ethiopian all are all very nice because of +happiness UI. In reality, in majority of my games with them I had 1 wine/coffee/horse or none at all. Rarely you get 2-3 of these resources, and almost never 4 or more. So yeah - if you're lucky, you're good, and if you aren't, you have very little to zero bonuses (until cultivation techs). "they can safely and easily hit gunpowder era, nothing like China" - my experience definitely does not back up that. I enjoyed playing French but in Classical era it's always a struggle economy-wise (unless you have decent amount of wine, and it's not a given). If you prevail early struggles - you're good of course. They do bloom later, I've never denied that. But it is much easier to prevail in Classical era as China, and you can be defeated early as French.

About Ethiopia - all the same thoughts, but upon further reflection - I forgot about Ethiopian Palace. Their other UB is meh but Palace seems good. I should have said Hungary instead of Ethiopia, my bad. Ethiopia is definitely comparable to China (mid to weak).

America seems a lot more viable than the above mentioned civs, I agree – you can have 3-5 ranches for 4+ cities quite consistently. But in my experience guaranteed unique courthouse per city (and you'll have 4-6) translates to larger eco bonuses than 3-5 ranches. So unless you have luck with early ranches, America WILL NOT be a powerhouse in Classical (not to the same extent that Chinese will be). Also, compared to the above civs, ranches don't give you any happiness, and all other bonuses of America kick in too late in the game (compared to the same German, French and Ethiopian even). I mean, by the time of minutemen America AI is usually wiped out of the Earth (: (while Chinese are more likely to be left in the game as a vassal of Berber/Sohelia/Austronesia AI)
 
Playing RI Europe and my spies can conduct missions but don't get any XP. The AI conducts espionage missions against me and I can thwart espionage . I can choose missions as well.
Is this a feature of the scenario or a glitch on me?
 
I play as Iran and conquered Israel. Persepolis has 97% of the population as Iranians and 0% of the Israeli population inside the city. How can I give my vassal my main cities (still with the word "liberate" when the number of people of that nationality in those cities fluctuates within statistical error. Very, very unrealistic. I attach the evidence
 

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