-Let me talk about spearman first. Chinese spearman have extra 25% bonus defense vs warband and axeman. I was talking about that. I do not denied it's useful, I use spearman often to defense from AI and barbarian horseman like you said. It is said that chinese spearman stronger but that bonus does not make it any stronger or any different to me.We surely play this mod differently. I think I can learn some of the things you mentioned (like baiting AI, for example) - maybe that will help me with Titan/Deity. Meanwhile, I'll share my perspective on what you said (i.e., how that applies to how I play):
- "AI in RI is not suiciding attack your city unless it have really high change capture it" - the thing is - in my experience, that can happen rather OFTENIf you do not prepare enough defenses, of course. Meaning: while 2 bowmen in the city are usually enough (and Chinese can swap that with bowman+axeman), sometimes you need more (like 3-4 bowmen or 2 bowmen and 1-2 axemen). If we're talking higher difficulties, AI there can still do doomstacks, true. And almost any Classical era doomstack can take on 2 unpromoted bowmen no problem. So that's why I think this Chinese bonus translates better on higher difficulties (though admittedly I mostly played Chinese on Monarch)
P.S. in RI you can promote melee units to City Defense if you really need to
- "In city defense they are not strong as chinese axeman" - whilst true, I find this reference a bit confusing. Previously you said that Chinese axeman is not that useful because sometimes you need a weaker defender, right? Well, this spear certainly fits the criteria - stronger than a warband, weaker (and cheaper!) than an axeman or bowman. To add to that, I find that 1 spear per city (of any nation) is viable strategy if AI makes horses. Meaning: of course horses die either way, but without spearmen they will face archer/melee/what have you, and that usually leads to higher odds AND higher damage (compared to cities which have a single spear that faces any cavalry offender firsthand). Ultimately, that translates to something like 3.8-4(out of 4) bowman instead of 3-3.6(out of 4) bowman (per each cavalry attack). So yeah, ANY spear may be used in city defense - but Chinese and, say, Egyptian one are better at that (because they can take out non-cavalry attackers more consistently).
And I will repeat my views on plain defense with spears, just in case you missed it. I find it impractical to build 10+ skirmishers/10+ horsemen/etc. to face any doomstack of that era – much better to use 4-6 of these and fortify your stacks (to make skirmishers/etc. less vulnerable to Melee/Archer/etc. counter-attacks). And Chinese spear is great for that - it can kill cavalry (that easilly kills skirms), it can kill archery & weak melee units (that are alright at killing at 4s skirms), etc. It is more of pre-bronze bonus but it still exists.
- "only stronger than the civ that can beat you to death with their melee troops" - there are a lot of those, though. Celts, German, Greek, Roman, English, Carthaginian, Nguni, Norse - and that's off the top of my mind. Also every Aggressive/Conqueror leader in the game. I thinks vs all of these 10% bonus is more valuable than FS. But sure, FS isn't nothing when you are already more powerful than your opponent
- "in-capturable city does not win me a game" - true, it only helps you survive on higher difficulties. Just in case, I'll repeat that I don't find Northern China OP or anything. Mid civ at their best, kinda weak at their worst. Surely Hindi, Roman, South China, etc. are much better. But the notion they are "the weakest civ" seems ridiculous to me while smth like America or Germany is in the game. More on that later
- "Classical era is about capture some nearby barbarian city" - that's something I disagree with wholeheartedly. In my opinion, you can (and should) do a lot of expansion in Classical. When necessary - through conquest, when not - through settling. The Chinese courthouse helps them with either, leader traits are well suited, too. As for Barbarian cities - well, they are always easier preventable than dealt with. Fog busting is still a thing in RI. So if a player let Barbarian settle a valuable land nearby, it's mostly on the player (again - in my opinion).
- "bad city will tank science and economies." - I think that's true of ANY civ. You always prefer better cities, sure. But what do you do if you don't have that? (Say, you spawned in tundra or desert). Germany and American and many others can just give up their game entirely at that point, because they can't boost weaker production spot and they don't have enough eco bonuses to justify early expansion in all directions.
Chinese on the other hand can do both. They will usually suffer in later eras, true. And Germany/America may try to survive until better times when their bonuses kick in - also true. But in early game China will always prevail over Germany/America - and in my experience, that is true of AI as well. I never saw China be a major power in Industrial but they are quite a powerhouse in Classical and early Medieval. But after that point they usually get weakened and eaten by other AIs, that is definitely true. You don't have to roleplay it like that, though.
- "it less matter when you facing higher difficult" - that's definitely not what my experience with this game was. The only time when I imagined Germany (and strong army roster in general) as OP was when I played on noble. After transitioning to Monarch and higher, I began to value eco bonuses more.
Notes on civs you mentioned:
I played a lot of Germany, French, Hungary, Ethiopia, and America on Emperor (dozens of games per each). Unless I played them completely wrong (which is possible), I found that they are definitely more map-dependent then China/Hindi/Roman or what have you. Germany doesn't have early eco bonuses, as you admit, and I find it their main weakness. AI easily outtechs Germany player, making their units almost useless. But if you survive, you may have some chances later, true.
On paper, French, Hungarian and Ethiopian all are all very nice because of +happiness UI. In reality, in majority of my games with them I had 1 wine/coffee/horse or none at all. Rarely you get 2-3 of these resources, and almost never 4 or more. So yeah - if you're lucky, you're good, and if you aren't, you have very little to zero bonuses (until cultivation techs). "they can safely and easily hit gunpowder era, nothing like China" - my experience definitely does not back up that. I enjoyed playing French but in Classical era it's always a struggle economy-wise (unless you have decent amount of wine, and it's not a given). If you prevail early struggles - you're good of course. They do bloom later, I've never denied that. But it is much easier to prevail in Classical era as China, and you can be defeated early as French.
About Ethiopia - all the same thoughts, but upon further reflection - I forgot about Ethiopian Palace. Their other UB is meh but Palace seems good. I should have said Hungary instead of Ethiopia, my bad. Ethiopia is definitely comparable to China (mid to weak).
America seems a lot more viable than the above mentioned civs, I agree – you can have 3-5 ranches for 4+ cities quite consistently. But in my experience guaranteed unique courthouse per city (and you'll have 4-6) translates to larger eco bonuses than 3-5 ranches. So unless you have luck with early ranches, America WILL NOT be a powerhouse in Classical (not to the same extent that Chinese will be). Also, compared to the above civs, ranches don't give you any happiness, and all other bonuses of America kick in too late in the game (compared to the same German, French and Ethiopian even). I mean, by the time of minutemen America AI is usually wiped out of the Earth(while Chinese are more likely to be left in the game as a vassal of Berber/Sohelia/Austronesia AI)
I'll share my perspective: (difficult immortal)
- In classical era, have 3 city, My comerce often is 30s. I want atleast 60% science so about 40% tax, so about 12-14 gold, with 6 limited gold bulding, I have fund of 20 golds.
free unit maintain is about 11-12 unit.
(4 workers, 5 archer, 2 spearman, 5 skimisher, 3-4 horse archer may be axeman, slave) about 20 units (just barely enough to repel SOD with fort) , that is about -10 gold from unit maintain, -8 from city. totally -18, more if unit go outside border. China court house could bring 6 gold from merchant in 2 city. I want 2 scientists in my captital. So I could afford more 6 unit. early game I could success rush pyramid or stonehenge. If I rush stonehenge I could found 2,3 great priest, join a city, each +5 gold so 2 more city or 10 more units or more science. If I rush pyramid, that will gave me gave me great eginneer, fast a oracle, found taoism, then game may gave me 50/50 priest or engineer, engineer for fast Cheomseongdae or great library, priest for wonder.
That why I find the idea of counterattack with wave of axe absrub. I have to build more army, like at least 4 or 5 axemans, few warband. That cost me science. Most of time after defeat enemies stacks I just want to sue of peace, marching your army from your city to enemies city, fews turn to bringdown defense, that just enough for AI build reinforce.(on immortal, their city able to build warband in less than 2 turns) that is costly attack. Even if you able capture city, culture border is crushed, costly maintain, foreign ruler unhappy and you hardly keep it either. Totally not worth.
Axeman defense is absrub, promote city defense axeman, for what? you want train your archer, promote it. What the point of compare axeman with archer without promote? If I have infinity funding, I would find it useful. The meta is about how less unit can do the most. Your archer will never un promote, they gain exp with barbarian they fight, slave rebel, so that they can level up and useful.
Whole idea of civ 4 is about specializations, city specializations, unit specializations. That why holy war doctrine is strongest doctrine in the game. Hybrid kind of thing is the worst. China UU is the worst, their UI is the worst cause they are trying hybrid.
It is inpractice if you try to aggressive expand in this era, it just shrink your economies and science unless you have strong unit that could attack and defense ( to replace and skimisher, horse archer that can only defense your border cause malus city str) but that is wish of every civ.
-So the optimal strategy in my classical I think is try to stay peaceful as possible, unlock fort, (repel invader with 4-5 skimisher with specializing rough terrain like forest or hill, 2 bowman is luxury already not saying addtional axeman, unessesary and cost maintain). That way I can have high science output to unlock doctrine, wonder.
Thank courthouse, with one addtional scientist, Cheomseongdae, science wonder, they net about more 15+ science (if science out put is 70%+) and good amount of GPP, spawn great scienctist, join city, sometime during medieval, China may able have tech lead if AI waging war a lot (sound china strong but any civ could do that if they can build Cheomseongdae by some extent)
-But problem I need expand. I wish I can just stay there and turling, I expand now or never, china reach their powerspike here. That is where china downfall. Their weak offensive unit so I they need more unit to do the job. That sank science, gold, by a lot.
-If I am other civ like japan, mongol, south china,... or what ever civ that reach their power spike but just example japan mongol south china cause they have power spike in same era. Their powerful UU can take city like taking a candy, may not even lose a single unit, no need wait healing, re troops, they easily take 4 or 5 city in span of 20-30 turns. But china, it would take them double amount of that time or even more.
-So after expand period of china, I have about 7-9 city, about 6-7 tech behind even I was the one with tech lead before I expand. War too costly, UU units useless now, economies destroyed, science 0, science gap will widen more, probraby just wait the Civ from other side of map bring their stack of 30s line infantry wipe me out of map.
-And bring in bad start patching ability of canal do not make them any stronger.
I never seen a tundra without a hill, a desert without resource. If there is really place with nothingless, why settle there? They increase your research cost, cost your maintain. Why settle there? I don't get it.
-Situation if I am Germany, French or America right now. I probrably with only 3-4 citys, behind about 3-5 techs but science still go strong, not too good but still winable when their time come.
-Hungary's horse archer is one of strongest in the game, just below mongol. Arpad , his Charismatic trait (25% less exp to level up) combine with his National unit Black legions( start with leadership-+100%exp perk), with some training you will have 6 Chonky Hunni can slay an army.It like have free 6 great general. Hungary is amazing
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