Realistic Approach Institute

It's a thriving wildlife sanctuary, one of the largest in Europe.

The impact on the general population is also not as bad as you probably think. The only really notable impact (aside from those directly exposed and killed in the reactor) was an increase in the incidence of thyroid cancer among the general population, which is almost always curable. The whole "Chernobyl = mutant babies" and "Chernobyl = omg millions dead" are complete myths.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4923342.stm

It's still not advisable to go hunting in this wildlife sanctuary though. The animals living there on a regular/permanent basis are too radioactive for use as food.
 
So, thriving metropolis or all but devoid of human life?

Your position is ridiculous for two main reasons. Firstly, the reason that nobody lives in Chernobyl anymore is not because it's going to kill anybody who stands inside it, Call of Duty style, but rather because the government evacuated everybody. There are actually some people who do still live inside the exclusion zone. It's obviously not hugely detrimental to animals living inside it, because they are. They're thriving, not dying! They probably have higher than average rates of leukemia or something, but it's no wasteland.

The second, and far more important reason is that a slow release from a reactor isn't even remotely comparable to a nuclear bomb detonation. Even if Chernobyl was exactly as you'd have us believe, totally uninhabitable, a completely dead environment... that still wouldn't mean that this was the same thing that happens when a nuclear warhead explodes.

The fact that Hiroshima and Nagasaki are still inhabited, and were constantly inhabited since the bombs went off is ample proof that the effects aren't equivelant. The radiation dissipates almost immediately, and all long-term effects come from the fallout. Ground-bursts generate a lot of fallout, and air-bursts generate very little. In fact, the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were far lower to the ground than is optimal (but they didn't know that at the time), meaning that it put out more fallout than it would have with an optimal airburst.

Modern weapons are also Fission-Fusion weapons, as opposed to pure fission. The fission charge is used to initiate fusion, which does the supermajority of the damage. Fission = lots of fallout, fusion = very little fallout. The fission first-stage of a Fission-Fusion weapon is actually far smaller than a conventional pure-fission bomb. This is to say, modern, high-yield nukes are far cleaner than older, less powerful nukes.

... and Hiroshima and Nagasaki were perfectly habitable after the bombs dropped.


everybody always likes to mention Hiroshima and Nagasaki when they argue that nukes won't have any effect on the world.

Nobody is arguing that they have no effects. The argument is that a nuke doesn't render a city uninhabitable. The ecological effects of large-scale nuclear exchanges is unknown and highly controversial. Carl Sagan famously screwed up when he claimed that it would cause "nuclear winter", and was later shown to be completely wrong.


Note: edited an inaccurate statement.
 
Mmm. If the Krakatoa eruption was capable of dipping world-wide temperatures for at least a year by over 1° C, I wonder what a full nuclear exchange between nuclear powers would give. How many nuclear warheads were there again worldwide? 12-19 thousand?
 
The very first change should be the leaders lifespan. This is beyond unrealistic. I would think over the course of a game you should go through 100 generations of leaders.

What about putting a roman numeral next to the name and incrementing it up by 1 every hundred years or so?

Generation Xerox is, of course, in full effect here.
 
Mmm. If the Krakatoa eruption was capable of dipping world-wide temperatures for at least a year by over 1° C, I wonder what a full nuclear exchange between nuclear powers would give. How many nuclear warheads were there again worldwide? 12-19 thousand?

There's a recent study at http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2007/2006JD008235.shtml

My school apparently doesn't subscribe to the journal, but Wikipedia reports that they give a -7C to -8C global cooling "for a few years", and after 10 years the cooling is still at -4C (compared to -5C for the last ice age). That's in a war involving all of the world's nuclear arsenal.
 
That sounds to me that even half of the nuclear arsenal spent is enough to have a significant decrease of global temperatures for at least a generation. The world population would certainly be ravished due to famine and simple annihilation. And I'm talking in the nineties percentage here.
 
Maybe if instead of just targetting cities with the nukes, they could target active and dormat volcanoes. Maybe that would help loosen up the mantle a little and do a little more destruction.
 
That sounds to me that even half of the nuclear arsenal spent is enough to have a significant decrease of global temperatures for at least a generation. The world population would certainly be ravished due to famine and simple annihilation. And I'm talking in the nineties percentage here.


The consequences are bad, but not instant-ice-age bad. The climate analysis (what is the plural of "analysis"?!) have assumed that arsenals are targeted directly at cities, with groundbursts for maximum plume generation, and that 100% of the warheads detonate. None of these are accurate to life.

Part 3 of an essay series on nuclear planning and policy-making. Part 1 and 2 can be found by subbing out "3" for "1" or "2" in the URL.
 
Your position is ridiculous for two main reasons.
Sorry, I didn't both to read beyond that. I doubt I missed anything other than somebody proving my point as to why you should avoid using the word 'realism' in a game.
 
An interesting piece of context for the Hiroshima/Nagasaki example: the last person to survive both blasts died of stomach cancer a few months back. And he wasn't out in the boonies when the bombs went off; he survived both blasts by dumb luck.

So yeah, you can get along pretty well after being nuked if you luck out, apparently.

(what is the plural of "analysis"?!)

"Analyses." Pronounced the same except the last syllable is pronounced like the word "seas." Similar to crisis-crises. Don't know if you were legitimately asking that or not, but figured I'd volunteer the info anyways. ;)
 
Don't know if you were legitimately asking that or not, but figured I'd volunteer the info anyways.

I thought that's what it was, but when I typed "Analyses" Firefox spellchecker insisted it wasn't a real word, which made me hesitate. Oh well. *adds to dictionary*
 
I thought that's what it was, but when I typed "Analyses" Firefox spellchecker insisted it wasn't a real word, which made me hesitate. Oh well. *adds to dictionary*

Never trust Firefox spellcheck. I type things into Google if I think it gives me a false alarm.

That being said, Firefox does recognize "ginormous." I'm dead serious. Try it.

Anyways, back to your regularly scheduled thread. :crazyeye:
 
Sure, no one wants to play a game in which you can build Nukes in ancient age and Riflemen are always weaker then Clubmen, but beyond that...
 
Well, I guess you can count me in. I will have to read back through the responses, since this is the first time I noticed this thread. Most people know where I stand on the realism debate. (Personally I don't think it should be realism vs gameplay, but rather realism adds to gameplay).
 
Well, I guess you can count me in. I will have to read back through the responses, since this is the first time I noticed this thread. Most people know where I stand on the realism debate. (Personally I don't think it should be realism vs gameplay, but rather realism adds to gameplay).

This is the *key* point. Wanting realism for realism's sake is both futile and pointless: futile, because no matter how much realism you add, the game still won't be anything like realistic; and pointless, because it is a game and no one wants to perform tedious chores that add nothing to gameplay. Just adding "realistic" elements to the game that don't enhance gameplay will make the game less fun and more tedious...but not notably more realistic. Supply lines for military units are abstracted, for example, and I don't think it would enhance gameplay by adding supply units that you had to move every turn to the appropriate unit that they were supplying. Nor do I think you should have to manually move the ore from the mine to the city every turn.

What I think we want, most of all, is to look for situations where adding more detail (probably a better word than realism in this context) to a part of the game will improve the game by giving the player more decisions to make, each of which affects gameplay.
 
A great initiative, I got some small modding-expierence and depending on how CiV really turns out and my time schedule will look in the future, playing with idea to get myself involved with the more sophisticated stuff (Loona and C++).
I personally always dreamed about a fairly realistic (but of course still playable) modern-day world scenario. Over the course of a couple of centuries leading a mediocre or even minor modern-day-power to world domination - that would be fun.
The very first change should be the leaders lifespan. This is beyond unrealistic. I would think over the course of a game you should go through 100 generations of leaders.
Well while the idea itself is intriguing, to me it seems an unjustifiable workload to really do what you are suggesting. Though one never knows.
For starters it already would be a great accomplishment to get the leaders change for every historical period. IMO the current implementation is a real flair-breaker.
I am not being sarcastic in the slightest when I say this.
You don't have to be and the idea is not new. One just has to consider what mods like RoM in its content (and mechanics) with all its expansions + RFC in its mechanics have amounted to - both in the spirit of offering a more historic/realistic experience. In hindsight clearly stunning and very distinct compared to what Civ4 originally was.
How is Chernobyl doing now days? That wasn't even a bomb.
*Random plant in Chenorbly* - Most exceptional, thank you. In fact, plant life has never been better, it certainly wasn't before the reactor melt-down.
Nothing we can do can hurt planet Earth. It's just too big, we can not blow it up. We can make it bloody hard for people to live on top of it though.
Exactly. This "nukes could blow up the planet" meme is tiresome and spoils the thread.
So let it go long-hair-folks :p
To simulate a rapid worsening of living conditions on the planet after a massive nuclear war (and I really mean massive) makes sense though (Nuclear winter) and can enhance game play. You just would have to find a way to let the AI know about it.
 
I don't think it would enhance gameplay by adding supply units that you had to move every turn to the appropriate unit that they were supplying. Nor do I think you should have to manually move the ore from the mine to the city every turn.

But they would be a great fun to hunt down, wouldn't they? I for one love to hunt Barbarian workers with Woodsman II Axemen.
 
Back
Top Bottom