Realistic Nuclear Missile Mods?

[PowderedWig]

Does anyone know of mods for the current version of Beyond the Sword that makes the Nuclear Missiles (Tactical Nukes, ICBM's) more realistic, or at least leaves only city ruins when a city is hit.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You would need more than 1 nuke to completely obliterate a city. I'm not sure if any mods allow the elimination of cities, or whether it is possible to allow pop < 1 from a nuke in the XML.

Certainly, however, most of the effects of nukes in this game are OVERBLOWN, not underpowered. A tile in civ represents a huge amount of land. A nuke only kills everything in a couple mile radius and badly damages/irradiates beyond that for a number more miles (though modern nukes have less radiation since that implies a less efficient explosion IIRC). Large city centers like Tampa Bay area for example would take numerous nukes to level/kill everybody.

In civ IV terms, on some maps 1 tile is HUNDREDS of miles. There is absolutely no way 1 nuke should be leveling 100's of miles. If you think that is reality, you need a reality check . The damage is quite severe, but not 100%.

Hopefully you can XML edit the %chance for kill checks or damage etc. I never looked into it. It might need dll changes but hopefully not.

 

[PowderedWig]

"You would need more than 1 nuke to completely obliterate a city." I disagree, If the atom bomb dropped on Hiroshima caused 60 percent of the city to be obliterated, and the atom bomb was developed 64+ years ago, I can only imagine what nuclear missiles of today can do, although I am pretty certain that a modern day weapon of mass destruction could certainly destroy more than a whole city not to mention that governments usually don't publicly announce their latest weapons updates and technologies. "Certainly, however, most of the effects of nukes in this game are OVERBLOWN" Again I disagree, the ICBMs usually don't kill all enemy troops in its direct blast area even though it should be powerful enough to kill all troops in that tile but even if the troops survived the direct blast, the fallout from the bomb should have killed the rest of the survivors. The nukes in game are underpowered but it is only for balance reasons, I understand that, but a mod to make them realistic wouldn't be so bad. "If you think that is reality, you need a reality check" I think you need to get your facts straight as you are misinformed. "Hopefully you can XML edit the %chance for kill checks or damage etc. I never looked into it. It might need dll changes but hopefully not." I am aware of XML changing and saw that I could change the enemy troop survival chance to 0 percent and building survival chance to 0 percent but it still doesn't completely eliminate the city.

 

[NKVD]

but what was the composition of structure mostly back in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Wood I guess. You want more realism but the fact is we dont know what would really happen...

 

[PowderedWig]

True a lot of the city had wooden frames, about half the city had wooden houses and workshops but the center of the city had reinforced concrete buildings, and the bomb proved its explosive power was potent enough to get through it and eliminate 60 percent of the city. And like I said that was 64 years ago, it is safe to estimate that a weapon of mass destruction in modern times would at least completely destroy a city.

 

[smackthewise]

A few nukes dropped on a city knocks it back into the dark ages as it is, and if they cannot clean the fall out with ecology......
If you look into a nuked city (if you have enough EP points) you'll realise its as good as deleting the city from the tile anyway, they wouldn't be putting up any resistance and the economy is destroyed, compared to cities of the time which have not been nuked.

I wouldn't mind seeing a MIRV nuke unit in civ 4 though

 

[Glassfan]

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were attacked with small fision bombs ("A-bombs") in the ten to twenty kiloton range. During the Cold War, the major powers also developed fusion weapons ("H-bombs") in the one to ten megaton range, three magnitudes more powerful - often refered to as "thermonuclear" bombs. Such weapons would completely anihilate a medium sized city through blast, heat, overpreasures and radiation. No survivors, no standing structures, the ground fused into glass. The old accounts and pictures of Hiroshima after the bombing (John Hershey; "Hiroshima") would not resemble the horrific desolation of a Hydrogen bomb attack. If there were a Civilization analog to a real nuclear attack, the city would have to be eliminated from the game, and as TMIT points out, the game doesn't allow that. TMIT is mistaken, however, in saying it would take numerous hits to destroy a large city like Tampa Bay. One five megaton ICBM from Siberia during the cold war would have taken the buccaneers right off the map.

 

[killmeplease]

check this:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168858

 

[killmeplease]

During the Cold War, the major powers also developed fusion weapons ("H-bombs") in the one to ten megaton range

there was a 50 megatonn bomb testing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9AMtUeyDP0&mode=related&search=

 

[TheMeInTeam]

"You would need more than 1 nuke to completely obliterate a city." I disagree, If the atom bomb dropped on Hiroshima caused 60 percent of the city to be obliterated, and the atom bomb was developed 64+ years ago, I can only imagine what nuclear missiles of today can do, although I am pretty certain that a modern day weapon of mass destruction could certainly destroy more than a whole city not to mention that governments usually don't publicly announce their latest weapons updates and technologies. "Certainly, however, most of the effects of nukes in this game are OVERBLOWN" Again I disagree, the ICBMs usually don't kill all enemy troops in its direct blast area even though it should be powerful enough to kill all troops in that tile but even if the troops survived the direct blast, the fallout from the bomb should have killed the rest of the survivors. The nukes in game are underpowered but it is only for balance reasons, I understand that, but a mod to make them realistic wouldn't be so bad. "If you think that is reality, you need a reality check" I think you need to get your facts straight as you are misinformed. "Hopefully you can XML edit the %chance for kill checks or damage etc. I never looked into it. It might need dll changes but hopefully not." I am aware of XML changing and saw that I could change the enemy troop survival chance to 0 percent and building survival chance to 0 percent but it still doesn't completely eliminate the city.

Think about what a tile in civ IV represents. It isn't just a few square miles. It is a LOT of square miles. As an example, think earth 18 civs. The entire state of texas is what, 4-6 squares? Florida is like 4? If we look at it as if these cities represent major urban centers, not just the "city" proper, the nuke damage makes a lot of sense.

Show me a nuclear warhead that causes a 100x100 mile blast radius and I'll take back what I've said. Otherwise, you're mistaken on nukes vs civ IV outcomes.

 

[PowderedWig]

@smackthewise I realize the nuke damage is for game play reasons, the nukes make the game fairly easy I think, but still a realism mod would be pretty cool.

 

[PowderedWig]

@TheMeInTeam"Think about what a tile in civ IV represents. It isn't just a few square miles. It is a LOT of square miles." Then lets take what killmeplease had to say into consideration the atom bomb was ten to twenty kilotons in power, the atom bomb caused everyting in a miles radius to be leveled and The Tsar bomba, a hydrogen bomb tested detonated in 1961 was 50 megatons, 25,000 times more powerful than the atom bomb, so I'm guessing it's blast radius would be 25,000 miles maybe only 20,000 due to modern building materials, and on top of that, the Tsar Bomba was made 48 years ago, so more than likley they have bombs that are even stronger than that. "Show me a nuclear warhead that causes a 100x100 mile blast radius and I'll take back what I've said. Otherwise, you're mistaken on nukes vs civ IV outcomes." Try the link Killmeplease posted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar_Bomba.

 

[r_rolo1]

It was never made a bomb with higher explosive ability than the Tsar Bomba , mainly because 2 bombs of 20 Mt can destroy more than 1 bomb of 40 Mt ( simple geometric considerations ), and that is why the development of more powerful bombs halted in favour of MIRV systems.

And don't bring Hiroshima so lightly. Hiroshima had most of it's city center made of traditional Japanese houses, that are not exactly that resistant. To add, the geography of Hiroshima helped to maximize the destruction, a thing that you can't count on everywhere. If you want to bring a more represantative example, Nagasaki would be far better.

 

[PowderedWig]

@Killmeplease, I checked the Mad Nuke Mod, it was definitely what I wanted, but it is incompatible with the current version of Beyond the sword. Regrettably there are no realistic nuke mods that work so far.

 

[PowderedWig]

@r_rolo1 "It was never made a bomb with higher explosive ability than the Tsar Bomba , mainly because 2 bombs of 20 Mt can destroy more than 1 bomb of 40 Mt ( simple geometric considerations ), and that is why the development of more powerful bombs halted in favour of MIRV systems." Sounds logical, but you don't know that for sure, governments rarely update the public on their newest weapon systems. "And don't bring Hiroshima so lightly. Hiroshima had most of it's city center made of traditional Japanese houses, that are not exactly that resistant." Untrue, the city center had a large amount of Reinforced concrete buildings, check this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

 

[pesgores]

Well I don't care it's unrealistic, I too want a MOD of a Nuke that, at least, can actually kill units in one attack.

Or some division, like Atomic Bomb available for everyone after Manhattan Project and Hydrogen bomb available after completing a specific TEAM Project. H-Bombs should also have more chance of avoiding interception by SDI, let's say 25% chance.

Sorry for stealing your thread, PowderedWig.

 

[PowderedWig]

No worries its all cool, besides nukes need to destroy realistically.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Nukes could be a bit stronger in CIV with respect to units. I would like to see fewer left over after a single ICBM strike.

As to realism, I'd rather be able to load A-bombs onto bomber aircraft to be dropped (like Hiroshima/Nagasaki) and those would be cheaper than ICBMs/Tactical nukes. H-Bombs could be unlocked after another tech is researched (fission? although it comes too late IMO). And THAT would be more what I'm looking for in realism. AFAIC, nukes do enough damage as represented in game now (albeit, I'd like to see fewer units survive).

 

[PowderedWig]

That would be a pretty hefty mod, adding hydrogen bombs, atom bombs, ability to load atom bombs on planes. That wouldn't be a bad idea though but I think it would take a while to make a mod like that or at least longer than I would be willing to wait. As for me, I just want the ICBM's and Tactical nukes to do damage more realistically.

 

[Badtz Maru]

People overestimate the power of nuclear weapons. There are some 50+MT bombs that could destroy most of a medium-sized city, but most of the warheads in ICBMs are much smaller than that. A city the size of Dallas would require over a dozen typical warheads to ensure physical damage (not obliteration) to every structure within it's city limits.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were both small cities, each well under a million people. Modern cities are much more spread out.