Referendum on Scottish Independence

How would you vote in the referendum?

  • In Scotland: Yes

    Votes: 8 4.5%
  • In Scotland: No

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • In Scotland: Undecided / won't vote / spoilt vote

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Rest of UK: Yes

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • Rest of UK: No

    Votes: 21 11.9%
  • Rest of UK: Undecided / won't vote / spoilt vote

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • Rest of World: Yes

    Votes: 61 34.5%
  • Rest of World: No

    Votes: 52 29.4%
  • Rest of World: Undecided / won't vote / spoilt vote

    Votes: 26 14.7%

  • Total voters
    177
  • Poll closed .
I was a right wing conservative when I was 15 and a communist when I was 16. Ask Cheezy what he was when he first joined CFC :D

A lot of the reports about the rioting right now are coming directly from twitter. Like, it's literally people posting things on twitter, and the mainstream media treating those reports as fact. I'm a huge fan of twitter as you may have realised by now, but it's not a reliable source.

Also, there are idiots and thugs at basically any large demonstration. There were idiots and thugs at the student protests and the anti-EDL demos and the Occupy camps etc etc. And I'm not delusional - both sides were making nationalist arguments and appealing to nationhood. The important thing for me is that I wasn't...
 
My thoughts from south of the border. I don't expect them to be popular in this thread, but here they are

1) I'm genuinely glad Scotland voted no. Not because I'm English (and therefore inherently evil). Not because I want to steal their oil. Not because I want Scotland for lebensraum. But because I sincerely believe its the best thing for both Scotland and the Union. We have a symbiotic relationship, Scots are the midichlorians that made the Union into a Jedi.

2) The No campaign was inept. Where the Yes campaign was long on rhetoric and short on substance, No was the opposite. Darling was a complete and utter wet blanket with all the drive and passion of a damp lettuce. And I could have cried when he tried to argue Scotland wouldn't be admitted to NATO without nuclear weapons.
Cameron, Clegg and Milliband were notorious by their absence - I understand why they did it, because Salmond would instantly have rolled out the "see, the English are still trying to oppress us" line, but a little more than a last minute whilstle stop tour would have been nice. MPs south of the border became increasingly frustrated at the lack of engagement of English politicians

3) I know nationalists love him, but I think in many ways Salmond did your cause more harm than good. He's like a Scottish Thatcher - hero worshiped by his core voters, feared and loathed by everyone else. His campaign was aggressive, divisive and abusive. The English were treated as the enemy, No voters as traitors. Furthermore, he never had any answers to the tough questions, other than accusations of bullying and Westminster conspiracies. His "plans" for an independent Scotland reminded me of Varys's quote about Littlefinger - he doesn't care if the realm burns, as long as he can be king over the ashes. I'm glad he's gone, hopefully you'll get a leader now who's capable of repairing the divide, and regards England as a partner not an oppressor.

4) The devolution of more powers. This is where it gets tricky. Because of (2), the No campaign panicked at the last minute and promised a whole raft of extras that have not been discussed or voted on in parliament. So now Scots expect that these promises will be delivered, whilst English MP's are ((quite rightly IMO) saying "hang on a minute, we haven't even had a chance to debate this stuff". So its either try and deliver the promises and face a rebellion in parliament, or wait until its been properly been debated and cause uproar in Scotland, "see, the English can't be trusted etc etc". What I find quite interesting is its not just Tories complaining about this, Lib Dems and Labour MP's are jumping on the hangonaminute bandwagon, a move which could cause their vote to collapse in Scotland

5) The media is biased? Seriously? You're getting your knickers in a twist over this? I can only imagine that you never noticed before because you were in agreement over the subjects that their coverage was biased in favour of. Journalists are liars and manipulators of the truth. They are selective in the facts they choose to report. If it took this referendum for you to notice it, then I feel sorry for you - just remember it next time you see something being reported that reinforces something you already believe. They're probably lying about that too.

6) Age. That's democracy kids. Everyone has one vote. And over 40s and over 60s have legitimate concerns too - just because they're different to yours doesn't make them any less legitimate. Plus, when you're 40 you realise that you don't know everything. When you're 20 you know that you know everything.

7) Wanna win next time? Firstly, have a proper plan in place beforehand. Have all your ducks lined up. "This is how we're going to join the EU, and this is how long its going to take". "This is what it will take to join NATO". "This is what we're going to do about currency" (this one was perhaps the biggest killer for Yes) and don't just act like every other nation would give you everything you want on a platter. Because they won't.
Make realistic promises, don't expect people to believe that you can halve taxes and double spending. Not to mention in 15-20 years time when this comes up again oil revenues are going to be clearly declining.

Secondly, don't act like No voters are quislings. One repeated comment I've read over and over from No voters is fear of what Scotland would become after a Yes vote. Sellars "day of reckoning" quotes were an enormous own goal and scared a lot of people (and businesses). Salmonds repeated use of "Team Scotland" for Yes voters was divisive and insulting. In short, you need a leader who is less tribal, less divisive, and more inclusive. Salmond was great for hardcore nationalists, but scary for that middle 10% you need to win.
 
My thoughts from south of the border.

You'll be pleased to know that doesn't exist then. :) Both campaigns were equally awful, and I'd say No only won out in the end because people knew more or less what they'd get, while Yes had done a bad job with specifics. It's harder to convince people to vote on something more uncertain, even if what you're getting isn't great.
 
@Mount Suribachi, your post is well intentioned and all, but most of what you says myth, smear or misunderstanding based on your dependence on the British media (& many of them have already been debunked here already).

Maybe reading the articles of G. Monbiot will help:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/media-shafted-people-scotland-journalists

Media are usually biased, true, but this time it was of a scale & nature that impeded the workings of democracy.
 
Pangur Bán;13463786 said:
@Mount Suribachi, your post is well intentioned and all, but most of what you says myth, smear or misunderstanding based on your dependence on the British media (& many of them have already been debunked here already).

Maybe reading the articles of G. Monbiot will help:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/media-shafted-people-scotland-journalists

Media are usually biased, true, but this time it was of a scale & nature that impeded the workings of democracy.

Assuming of course people can't decide for themselves whether they are Yays or Nays...

(Not to mention you are focusing on one issue in an altogether balanced post IMHO.)
 
Oh yeah. My mistake.

Looking at the clip again: Monbiot was quoting another article, and Brand was stabbing his finger at that quote. I got confused. It happens.
 
Assuming of course people can't decide for themselves whether they are Yays or Nays...

Indeed people cross boxes individually and make decisions based on rational and irrational processes, on information they have, the stance they take on personalities, and so on. Unfortunately people generally don't exercise much control over those. Would that they did, but it's just not how the world works.
 
How do you know? Isn't it a bit mean-spirited to suggest your side lost because the sheeple were led astray and were too lazy to do their own research?

I know the BBC is biased, you know the BBC is biased, and I don't know about you, but there is nothing special or particularly perceptive about me. In a world where people have the internet at their fingertips it would be nice to give the average voter a little more credit in forming their own opinions*.



*well, for something as important as an independence referendum, general elections in a safe seat constituency are another thing entirely.
 
"Symbiotic relationship" is not a good turn of phrase though, i mean... the sea anemone and the clownfish? :(

Put it this way - for 300 years the Union has provided an opportunity for talented Scots to make themselves known to the world, and provided an infusion of talent and energy to that Union. An opportunity that would have been denied many of them if Scotland had remained independent. Make a list of the 100 greatest Scots and 95 of them will have come after the Union.
 
They were known to the world already before the union. And at that time they were at least known as Scots, not as "probably Englishmen".

An opportunity that would have been denied many of them if Scotland had remained independent.

Sure, because all countries which didn't unite with England never produced people that became known to the world. It's common knowledge.
 
How do you know? Isn't it a bit mean-spirited to suggest your side lost because the sheeple were led astray and were too lazy to do their own research?

I know the BBC is biased, you know the BBC is biased, and I don't know about you, but there is nothing special or particularly perceptive about me. In a world where people have the internet at their fingertips it would be nice to give the average voter a little more credit in forming their own opinions*.

Well, my son, come closer. It may not chime with what you've learned to believe about your own freedom, but that's part of the trick. It's the way the world works, call it 'mean-spirited' if you like, but if you think it's not reality then you should go write a book explaining why the West's large marketing & PR sectors flourish. These are industries that control relatively easily how you react to things even when you are well informed. With the mass media, they control what you are 'informed' about and how you are 'informed'; and you can't criticize, even if you're the smartest person in the world, because you don't know what you don't know. The smartest people will default to thinking 'ah well they might be biased about x', while taking for granting everything else. Cumulatively it is overwhelming, even if you think you can resist it at particular points. At great expense I am well informed about issues like foreign policies and Scotland, but it's not possible to do this for more than a few things.
 
Pangur Bán;13463977 said:
Well, my son, come closer. It may not chime with what you've learned to believe about your own freedom, but that's part of the trick. It's the way the world works, call it 'mean-spirited' if you like, but if you think it's not reality then you should go write a book explaining why the West's large marketing & PR sectors flourish. These are industries that control relatively easily how you react to things even when you are well informed. With the mass media, they control what you are 'informed' about and how you are 'informed'; and you can't criticize, even if you're the smartest person in the world, because you don't know what you don't know. The smartest people will default to thinking 'ah well they might be biased about x', while taking for granting everything else. Cumulatively it is overwhelming, even if you think you can resist it at particular points. At great expense I am well informed about issues like foreign policies and Scotland, but it's not possible to do this for more than a few things.

tl;dr the sheeple were led astray.
 
But hang on just a minute. If the media is telling me that the media is leading me astray, can I believe the media when it tells me that?
 
But hang on just a minute. If the media is telling me that the media is leading me astray, can I believe the media when it tells me that?

You have to look very deeply to get that message, but the media aren't a group of people in a conspiracy. They are a structure governed by incentives, power-relations, shared norms, etc. You don't much vital info from them without commitment, work and skill.

I recommend watching this.


Link to video.
 
We also don't know some of the things we do know. At least, I don't.

It's fine saying "look deeper". But everyone already thinks they do. It's a bit like claiming you don't have enough common sense. No one claims this.
 
We also don't know some of the things we do know. At least, I don't.

It's fine saying "look deeper". But everyone already thinks they do. It's a bit like claiming you don't have enough common sense. No one claims this.

If it were easy we wouldn't be having this conversation.
 
If the media are so powerful over the plebs, then why did a huge chunk of the Scottish electorate still vote "yes"? Just 10 days ago the Yes vote was ahead in some polls and had huge momentum. It led to the most powerful man in the British establishment to vaguely promise some additional carrots for Scotland if they voted "yes"; without even discussing it in the House of Commons! That's how close it was!

I think it may just be an emotional way of dealing with the defeat. Yes, it wasn't the fact we couldn't convince the majority of the Scottish people. It was the media's fault!
 
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