Regarding the Steam threads in the civ5 forum.

[PieceOfMind]

(EDIT -- comment removed)

I have some concerns about the handling of steam threads in the civ5 forum.

In particular, this poll was closed for basically no reason at all other than pre-emptively to prevent a steam fanbois vs. haters war.

Can we please have moderating move to dealing with problem posters by handing out warnings, infractions etc. rather than simply closing threads? If you wonder why there are so many Steam threads in the civ5 forum the simple answer is that most of them have been locked.

If you don't want to allow any ranting or venting about Steam in the civ5 forum then please make it a sticky note or something in the civ5 forum and point to perhaps an area in off-topic where it is acceptable. Then, to an extent we could self moderate the civ5 forum by reminding posters that discussions of Steam are off-topic and belong in a different area of the site.

I hate the flame wars just as much as anyone but I am disappointed that any meaningful discussion about Steam, including the freedom to protest to civ5 requiring it, is being held hostage to immature people on both sides hurling flames at each other.

Moreover, the flamings are actually at their worst in the threads that have remained open. The thread I linked with a poll about Steam was IMO the most polite discussion of Steam I had seen so far, yet it was closed.

I am not sure whether this is the right spot to be posting this "complaint". I've already contacted some individual moderators about it but I'm still not really sure what the situation is.

If the content of this post is crossing some line and should be in a PM, please feel free to delete the thread or whatever else you might need to do. As long as a moderator or moderators hear me...

Cheers,
PoM

 

[Turner]

It's not the ranting we don't want going on. Don't like steam? That's fine. That's not the issue. The issue is when someone hates steam, or likes it, and then people start flinging insults back and forth. A lot of these threads are closed down simply to forestall that.

If people could discuss the topic at hand in a, well, civilized manner, we'd have no problem letting people discuss it. It's when the flaming and trolling goes on that we step in and act heavy handed.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Hi Turner,

I understand that reasoning. Do you think that applies to the thread I linked?

I would like to create a thread that has a poll very much like that one but I fear it will get closed by a moderator.

Also, would it be reasonable to ask that when threads get closed, infractions get handed out for those who acted inappropriately? I'm pretty sure there are many threads that have been closed where no one or very few people received infractions where they most likely should have. This probably leads those people to believe their posts were tolerable.

What about the not-often-used strategy of simply deleting the posts that are insulting or flaming? That could work as well, couldn't it?

If it's acceptable to post one's dislike about Steam or rant about it, the people who want to do so need to have a place where they can do it I think. At the moment all they can do is post in the existing flame-war threads and pray they won't get flamed themselves.

 

[Turner]

I hope you understand that the thread you linked to in the OP was not closed because it was "pro-steam" or "anti-steam", but rather the responses given by some of the responders was unacceptable, hence the thread being closed.

You say delete the offending threads. Well, we could do that. May even very well be a good idea. Your reasoning on deleting the posts is that if it's not acceptable then deleting it will send the message that those kinds of posts are not desirable. Well, perhaps we're closing those threads so that people get the hint that what they're posting is not acceptable. And leaving those up so that we don't get a bunch of "Where'd my post/thread go?" threads.

I'm sure there is room for improvement. But I'm also sure that the C5 mods are doing as best as they can. It's not an easy job moderating a new forum like the C5 forums are.

Largely, I've stayed out of the Civ5 forums because of the bad taste in my mouth left by trying to moderate the Civ4 forums when that game was where C5 is at now. I hope you understand just how trying it is to moderate these forums. It gets to the point where you just want to shut the whole forum down and tell them to go post somewhere else.

Honestly, if you have suggestions, by all means PM the moderators of that forum, or the admins. We'll listen. Might not use your suggestions, but then again, we just might do as you suggest.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Please don't suggest that Civ 5 discussions move to Off-Topic. There is a Civ 5 forum for discussions relating to Civ 5. Off-Topic sees very little discussion of the Civ game, and some of the OT posters don't even play Civ (or at least they don't play as much as they used to).

As Turner said, we don't care what your opinions are. We just care that you express them in a civil way. There are lots of ways to disagree with someone without flinging insults. And frankly, we (the moderators) are not happy with some Civ 5 posters considering us, as CFC staff, part of the "bad guys" or as being compelled to enforce a particular point of view regarding Steam.

I'm a moderator in the Arts & Entertainment and Off-Topic forums. I play Civ 2. I have no interest in Civ 5, and hadn't even heard of Steam until I saw some of the reported posts in the Staff forum. So when you (collective "you") insult the CFC staff, you are insulting some people who have absolutely nothing to do with what you're arguing about. Please think about that, and realize that we are all here to enjoy Civ and interacting with each other, whether discussing games, or any other topic. Insults are not appreciated, and they're certainly not necessary.

 

[Zelig]

I suggest the civ5 boards be closed until the game is released.

I'm a moderator in the Arts & Entertainment and Off-Topic forums. I play Civ 2. I have no interest in Civ 5, and hadn't even heard of Steam until I saw some of the reported posts in the Staff forum. So when you (collective "you") insult the CFC staff, you are insulting some people who have absolutely nothing to do with what you're arguing about. Please think about that, and realize that we are all here to enjoy Civ and interacting with each other, whether discussing games, or any other topic. Insults are not appreciated, and they're certainly not necessary.

Not that I support these insults, or feel that you should necessarily stop banhammering these people, but if this actually upsets non-C5 forum moderators, said moderators may want to invest in some skin thickening agent.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I hope you understand that the thread you linked to in the OP was not closed because it was "pro-steam" or "anti-steam", but rather the responses given by some of the responders was unacceptable, hence the thread being closed.

If that's the case, I don't understand which posts were unacceptable. No mention of such a thing was made in the thread. The reason I was given was that it was to pre-empt and prevent a flame war before it started.

My point is that the posts in that thread were much more civil or at least not personal insults as many of the posts are in the ongoing discussions in threads that are open. I fully understand it was not closed because it sent a pro or anti steam message. I don't think I suggested that.

You say delete the offending threads. Well, we could do that. May even very well be a good idea. Your reasoning on deleting the posts is that if it's not acceptable then deleting it will send the message that those kinds of posts are not desirable. Well, perhaps we're closing those threads so that people get the hint that what they're posting is not acceptable. And leaving those up so that we don't get a bunch of "Where'd my post/thread go?" threads.

Hmm I'm not sure I'd suggest deleting threads but deleting posts is what I think could be appropriate. If someone makes a post that adds literally nothing to the discussion except a flame or personal insult, I think it would be acceptable to delete the post and possibly send a PM to that person saying why. This probably involves more work on the moderator's part though, so I understand if it's not practical.
As for closing threads, they still remain visible for a short while. There have been a couple of times I've been reading a thread and wanted to post only to find it locked. Not necessarily among the civ5 forum moderators but among the civ5 posters there seems to be a collective distaste for any thread about steam. This is not surprising given the number of threads that have been created. So now when a thread is created the first few posts will probably be along the lines of "Ugh. fail thread" or "We're sick to death of this topic". Pro steam and anti steam people alike could be posting that sort of message. What they don't realise is that with so many threads closed, the actual number of steam related threads that are still open is fairly small.

I'm sure there is room for improvement. But I'm also sure that the C5 mods are doing as best as they can. It's not an easy job moderating a new forum like the C5 forums are.

I know it's no easy task, and I have to say I appreciate the work you guys do. I still maintain that the moderating of the civfanatics boards is one of the main reasons it's the best forum on the net.

Largely, I've stayed out of the Civ5 forums because of the bad taste in my mouth left by trying to moderate the Civ4 forums when that game was where C5 is at now. I hope you understand just how trying it is to moderate these forums. It gets to the point where you just want to shut the whole forum down and tell them to go post somewhere else.

Honestly, if you have suggestions, by all means PM the moderators of that forum, or the admins. We'll listen. Might not use your suggestions, but then again, we just might do as you suggest.

Maybe I'm not as diplomatic as I'd like to be, but I feel like if I make too many suggestions I'll look like I'm basically telling you guys what to do.

If there is one particular suggestion I am making with this thread it is to be more cautious to closing threads. I know the moderators are not trying to advance a pro or anti steam message but at the moment there does seem to be a feeling of stamping out steam related threads. And yes I agree that many of the threads that were closed should have been because they were indeed started with the intention to troll or initiate a flame war. It's just some others have been caught up as collateral.

Please don't suggest that Civ 5 discussions move to Off-Topic. There is a Civ 5 forum for discussions relating to Civ 5. Off-Topic sees very little discussion of the Civ game, and some of the OT posters don't even play Civ (or at least they don't play as much as they used to).

Yeah sorry about that. I don't use the OT section much so I'm always unsure whether it's appropriate to suggest something be moved to OT, and so I make such suggestions tentatively.

As Turner said, we don't care what your opinions are. We just care that you express them in a civil way. There are lots of ways to disagree with someone without flinging insults. And frankly, we (the moderators) are not happy with some Civ 5 posters considering us, as CFC staff, part of the "bad guys" or as being compelled to enforce a particular point of view regarding Steam.

I'm a moderator in the Arts & Entertainment and Off-Topic forums. I play Civ 2. I have no interest in Civ 5, and hadn't even heard of Steam until I saw some of the reported posts in the Staff forum. So when you (collective "you") insult the CFC staff, you are insulting some people who have absolutely nothing to do with what you're arguing about. Please think about that, and realize that we are all here to enjoy Civ and interacting with each other, whether discussing games, or any other topic. Insults are not appreciated, and they're certainly not necessary.

I'm sorry I didn't realise that the moderators themselves were being insulted. I hope my complaints or comments have not been taken on board as insults because that is not my intention. Short of making me a moderator I'm not sure how much more there is I can do to help.

And believe me - I had to teach adolescents in a school for 5 weeks last year - I know how tiring it is to have to deal with and professionally manage insults that get thrown at you. I do sympathise.

 

[Moss]

My point is that the posts in that thread were much more civil or at least not personal insults as many of the posts are in the ongoing discussions in threads that are open. I fully understand it was not closed because it sent a pro or anti steam message. I don't think I suggested that.

I think you answer your own question. Methos (a great moderator by the way), saw the first reply in the thread in question, and others that were also not that productive, and knowing that there were other threads in that forum that also discussed this subject, closed that particular one so yet another thread wouldn't become a flame war as well. It's much easier to moderate one or two threads about steam than many, and since such threads are already open, there's little incentive for the moderators to want to moderate even more threads on the subject.

The same thing happens in other forums at CFC (such as OT)...certain topics cause sensitive reactions and those topics are more controlled than others, and for ease of moderating, sometime discussion is banned completely on certain topics OR those topics are kept to as few threads as possible.

 

[PieceOfMind]

The poll the OP in that thread posted was pretty legitimate IMO. I agree completely the following posts quickly suggested the thread would go awry.

If I posted basically the same poll and gave a warning to people to stay on topic and no personal attacks etc., would the thread manage to stay open?

I don't want to come across as too antagonistic but I really want that poll to go ahead. If I posted it again, would I be breaking some rule, whether written or unwritten?

By the way, I see poll threads as serving a different purpose to the general discussion threads.

 

[ori]

I added two new poll threads (one about Steam one about DLC) to the Civ5 subforum. Lets see how they are going and then we'll decide on other polls on these topics.
Generally we don't discourage polls - but these threads degenerated terribly quickly in the past few weeks.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Thanks for doing that ori. Forgive my impatience. I have some confidence those threads will do ok since you gave such a definite warning.

I still want a thread that would ask the question "All else being equal, would you prefer to buy a steam or non-steam version of the game?" but it's perhaps asking too much. Will see how those polls do first anyway.