Release Candidate

[youtien]

Vassals only rebel based upon the territory and population, I don't think tech or espionage would help. This is part of the BtS mechanics, why do you think it should change?

In history one often become others vassal when weak or defeated, and rebel when raised another army or regained power in any means. Venice was vassal of Byz and benefited more than master.

Also, when I get a vassal, I won't have to worry about them anymore. In my emperor Spanish game, English vassalized to me when we were at war with France, and I played a straightforward game since I killed French (got all AA source, killed Dutch too, and demanded English AA).

 

[youtien]

(About Hanseastic League)

I like it . It only makes certain civs pretty damn good with the human, that's all.

Well I like it too. Yesterday I finished a Swedish UHV, founded Augsburg families and got Hansa spreaded from England. In the end, Hansa got me +31 food per city, with all resources I gained from north, Russia and colonial projects(I built Amsterdam and killed Dutch)......

If I managed to build the Garden of Al-Andalus in my capital, I can get it more than 40 population. Anyone for the biggest city challenge?

 

[youtien]

Swedish overpowered: the 50% discount for unit/buildings is too powerful,tech cost too, should be nerfed a bit. In my Swedish game I founded Protestantism(via research), Augsburg families, built Torre de Belem and Magellan's Voyage (found Amsterdam, get AA from it), all public work wonders (bulbed military tactics around 1600, teched polygonal forts while it was still over +300%), and got all later colonial projects. Well, I kind of enjoyed it. In the end, 1750, I got ind. revolution with +900%, and had 50000+ gold......

 

[yogiebere]

Swedish overpowered: the 50% discount for unit/buildings is too powerful,tech cost too, should be nerfed a bit. In my Swedish game I founded Protestantism(via research), Augsburg families, built Torre de Belem and Magellan's Voyage (found Amsterdam, get AA from it), all public work wonders (bulbed military tactics around 1600, teched polygonal forts while it was still over +300%), and got all later colonial projects. Well, I kind of enjoyed it. In the end, 1750, I got ind. revolution with +900%, and had 50000+ gold......

I agree, I think some of the balances should be relooked. Unfortunately since the AI is very passive and non resourceful later in the game, it's very difficult to see whether a civ is balanced or not.

 

[3Miro]

Later civs like Sweden and the Dutch are harder to balance. However, you should know that the benefits and penalties for the AI and the Human player are different. The code can very easily give 50% discount on Units for the Swedish AI, but make that only 75% for a Human.

youtien, I just have to ask to make sure there is no misunderstanding, you are playing on Monarch difficulty and going for the UHV conditions.

 

[youtien]

Later civs like Sweden and the Dutch are harder to balance. However, you should know that the benefits and penalties for the AI and the Human player are different. The code can very easily give 50% discount on Units for the Swedish AI, but make that only 75% for a Human.

youtien, I just have to ask to make sure there is no misunderstanding, you are playing on Monarch difficulty and going for the UHV conditions.

Yes. My Swedish game was on Monarchy and I won UHV in 1750. The weird thing is, all other civs still fell behind very far in late game. Maybe you can lower the maximum discount from -25% to -50% or more.

 

[yogiebere]

Hey guys, some more thoughts on England. They seem in general pretty weak to me.

Obviously taking out France within 20ish turns is out of the question. But I have serious difficulty even taking and holding Calais and Normandy. They seem to have much stronger production and easily outnumber any army I try to muster from the isles. Burgundy also has issues keeping it's possessions. I'm toying around with lowering some of the production values in the balance python doc.

Any other thoughts on this?

 

[3Miro]

Hey guys, some more thoughts on England. They seem in general pretty weak to me.

Obviously taking out France within 20ish turns is out of the question. But I have serious difficulty even taking and holding Calais and Normandy. They seem to have much stronger production and easily outnumber any army I try to muster from the isles. Burgundy also has issues keeping it's possessions. I'm toying around with lowering some of the production values in the balance python doc.

Any other thoughts on this?

The AI is adequate enough in my games, if you think they are behind in tech and building production we can tweak that, but I wouldn't make them stronger in military terms.

For the Human, what I did some months ago, was to lose Normandy, but then I mustered a large enough army to just surprise attack Paris. After the city fell, France soon collapsed without being able to retaliate. I know I launched the attack relatively late. You can also wait for an opportunity with the plague.

 

[3Miro]

Yes. My Swedish game was on Monarchy and I won UHV in 1750. The weird thing is, all other civs still fell behind very far in late game. Maybe you can lower the maximum discount from -25% to -50% or more.

If I lower the maximum discount, it helps the AI in the early parts of the game. We can generally lower the cost of the late techs for everyone, this should do the trick.

 

[yogiebere]

The AI is adequate enough in my games, if you think they are behind in tech and building production we can tweak that, but I wouldn't make them stronger in military terms.

For the Human, what I did some months ago, was to lose Normandy, but then I mustered a large enough army to just surprise attack Paris. After the city fell, France soon collapsed without being able to retaliate. I know I launched the attack relatively late. You can also wait for an opportunity with the plague.

Oh I meant France was too powerful. Yeah that's a good idea. I just see that there are usually ~8 armored lancers, ~10 longswordsman, and lots more crossbowman. Plus he gets knights before you do, so it's rough in the mid-war.

Yeah good idea. It seems like you can't play a slow takeover. I just hope they would collapse.

 

[3Miro]

Oh I meant France was too powerful. Yeah that's a good idea. I just see that there are usually ~8 armored lancers, ~10 longswordsman, and lots more crossbowman. Plus he gets knights before you do, so it's rough in the mid-war.

Yeah good idea. It seems like you can't play a slow takeover. I just hope they would collapse.

Taking a second city right after Paris would help, it doesn't have to be large. Also, pillaging some improvements in French territory can help push them overboard.

 

[Veshta]

FRA is an odd one, sometimes sacking Paris is enough while other times you need to truly cripple him .. what irks me is that his stability indicator can be stable/shaky or even solid after Paris falls only to have him collapse out of the blue, as if it doesn't update properly.

Burgundy is insane now by the way, what was done for him? If FRA is hit hard by the viking barbs (ie. loose northern cities repeatedly) Burgundy more often than not steamroll everything thanks to the quite excellent starting cities he has.

Encouraging to see Austria being able to give as good as they get now, very dependent on neighbours status obviously but seems better than before.

Lastly, the Iberian conflicts rage for what seems an eternity, has become quite the epic struggle for supremacy as was intended I reckon .. doesn't really tip until the Pope gets involved which is awesome

 

[yogiebere]

Burgundy is insane now by the way, what was done for him? If FRA is hit hard by the viking barbs (ie. loose northern cities repeatedly) Burgundy more often than not steamroll everything thanks to the quite excellent starting cities he has.

I would have to disagree, I've seen a stronger burgundy but still not strong enough. France is still always more powerful and often takes Dijon. I can't relate to the Viking weakening because in the dozen or so starts as Spain and England France has always been very strong. Burgundy is often more aggressive but doesn't have much to back them up. I still see France as the civ to nerf (not buff England as may have been interpreted from me)

 

[3Miro]

In a number of Dutch auto-plays, Burgundy managed to get France. While France is still overall the stronger, I have seen Burgundy take over and go into Spain.

Austria is very dependent on the neighbours, they do spawn rather late, but you can see powerful Austria every now and then.

 

[ezzlar]

The british cities flipping in french territory is a bit of problem. Usually France has enormous amount of troops to counter attack. If they have a cog I cant even ferry my troops since all I get is a galley. And France is well ahead in science.

 

[youtien]

The british cities flipping in french territory is a bit of problem. Usually France has enormous amount of troops to counter attack. If they have a cog I cant even ferry my troops since all I get is a galley. And France is well ahead in science.

French development varies every game. Sometimes they have a large army and territory, sometimes I can use my starting force to capture Paris. I think that's fine.

 

[AbsintheRed]

French development varies every game. Sometimes they have a large army and territory, sometimes I can use my starting force to capture Paris. I think that's fine.

This was our goal
But yeah, France can be way to powerful for the english start in some cases

 

[Thor Macklin]

In my game the Cordoba AI keeps founding the city of Kufah instead of Cordoba. Thus making victory impossible. Haven't used them myself so it may just be an AI oddity.

Also venetia is founding the city of Cumae...on the adriatic.

 

[AbsintheRed]

For the COrdoban UHV actually the coordinates of the city counts, not the name of it
Anyway, most city name map issues will be fixed within a few days

 

[3Miro]

In my game the Cordoba AI keeps founding the city of Kufah instead of Cordoba. Thus making victory impossible. Haven't used them myself so it may just be an AI oddity.

Also venetia is founding the city of Cumae...on the adriatic.

AbsintheRed is working on the city name maps, but if the name is the only that is changed, then the UHV should register. Let me know if it doesn't.