[Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

[raystuttgart]

So ok, here is a first concept.
(It is a modified version of one of my many old concepts.)

Stirring Up of Natives by Missionaries

1.) Missionaries (Profession) will get a new button when at a Native Village.

"Stir Up Natives"

Using this will cause a Native from that village to go onto a "Native Raid".
(Unit created and setting the UnitAI accordingly. It will pick its target itself.)

2.) Stirring Up a Village

* Only possible exactly once a village.
(So if any player has already done / tried that in that village, you cannot do it any more.)

* Chances to Fail / Succeed depend on the attitude of the player towards the Natives

* If another European Nation already has a mission in that village, chances for "Stirring up" -50%.

* Also you will have min (10%) and max (90%) chances, because I don't like determinism.

* Experts (Jesuit Missionaries and Evangelist) have 20% higher chances.

* Missionary will not be "dissolved" in case of failure or success

* Failure however will worsen attitude towards player and also not allow to try again at that village.
(You really only have 1 try per village to stir up.)

* Failure or Success will simply be displayed as message

* There is no possibility to directly set a target (for the raid).
The Unit(AI) will choose its target itself.

3.) AI does currently not use that feature.



Summary:

Basically this will grant a new strategy.
You could send your Missionaries around villages near your enemies to stir up the Natives there.
This will cause your enemies a lot of "small" trouble because of raids.

Feature is not overpowered because a village can only be "stirred up" once.

If you are not careful, you might stir up the Natives for raids on yourself.
(Better think a little ...)

Might be fun.


Feedback ?

 

[Gomer_Pyle]

This is a really good presentation of a concept. I totally love it. This is just a quick idea right? Or have you actually come up with some kind of code for this already?

I think the part with "Conditions of AI to consider "Stirring up" is the key. European AI needs to check attitude towards other AI nations. If attitude towards a nation is "annoyed" and the Native AI his missionary is visiting also is cautious or worse then it would be possible. If Native AI isnt to found of the European missionary then you could send back "We do not like you enough"?

Also, this should not be cheap maybe? Or maybe the cost could be related to the current attitude level between the European AI asking for "Stirr up" and the Native AI?

I like this idea.

 

[raystuttgart]

This is a really good presentation of a concept. I totally love it.

Thanks.

I just wanted to give an example of a basic concept.
(With some basic consideration of balancing and AI.)

This is just a quick idea right? Or have you actually come up with some kind of code for this already?

Yes, it is just an idea.
I have not done any implementation on that yet.

Also, this should not be cheap maybe? Or maybe the cost could be related to the current attitude level between the European AI asking for "Stirr up" and the Native AI?

I did not want to make it cost money.
(For atmospheric reasons.)

If you fail, it will have negative influence on attitude of natives towards you.
Also you can do this only once per village.
Last but not least, while you send a Missionaries around "Stirring up" you cannot let him create missions.
(Because creating a mission will dissolve the Missionary.)

You should really consider if and when this makes sense.

I think the part with "Conditions of AI to consider "Stirring up" is the key.

Yes, we would need a good ruleset so AI would not do stupid things.

Again for clarification:

"Stirring Up" can not be directed towards a specific European Nation.
You really only stir them up and they pick their target themselves.

So only use it if you are either

A) Far Away

or

B) Have too good relationship to be considered as a target

If Native AI isnt to found of the European missionary then you could send back "We do not like you enough"?

I would rather have the attempt of "Stirring Up" determine Failure / Success by chances that are influenced by attitude.
(You will get a message of Failure / Success of course.)

I like this idea.

Let us see what the others think.

 

[raystuttgart]

I do want to discuss "Custom House" in this mod.

Ok, let us talk about it.

How about making Peter Stuyvesant a founding father instead of leader and replace him as leader with Michiel de Ruyter. Then have Custom House require a founding father like in Col94.

I really would not like that.
(Then only one Nation would have Custom Houses.)

What is the big problem if you can simply build it without unlocking it by Founding Father ?
(You do not have to use them.)

I could accept unlocking it with "Inventions" because they can be aquired by all nations not only one.
(We can talk about that in detail when we start with "Inventions".)

... it can sell boycotted goods at 50% value and non boycotted goods as 80%?

That is something we can talk about.

So you would like to have a custom house also sell boycotted goods ?
I am ok with that.
(Also the 50% price.)

 

[Gomer_Pyle]

I could accept unlocking it with "Inventions" because they can be aquired by all nations not only one.
(We can talk about that in detail when we start with "Inventions".)

It was only an idea, and it is allowed not to like things. Solving it with inventions sounds like a plan!

That is something we can talk about.

So you would like to have a custom house also sell boycotted goods ?
I am ok with that.
(Also the 50% price.)

That is the only thing I wanted. To talk about it. Atleast the custom house would have a purpose then. Dont feel like anything but a waste of time in TAC since Warehouse Expension does almost the same thing.

 

[raystuttgart]

So the only aspect that is really important to you is this ?:

Custom House will also sell boycotted goods at (MinimumBuyPrice - a small bribing fee (same as taxes would be))
From my side this is ok.

I could probably do this change in a few minutes.
(If the others accept it, too.)

By the way:
Currently selling goods with Custom House does not produce Trade-FoundingFather-Points.
I would also like to change that so selling goods with Custom House would produce Trade-FoundingFather-Points.
(Of course a lot less, than when selling these goods in Europe.)

 

[Gomer_Pyle]

Yeah that is correct. Yes let us see what the others think.

 

[colonialfan]

Love the concept of stirring up the natives. This could be a real fun and underhanded way of distracting your European rivals. Great idea Ray.

 

[raystuttgart]

Great idea Ray.

Actually I just tried to rebuild a feature of the "Original Colonization" with this.
(It is not really "my idea".)

But yes, I really think this little feature will add some fun.
(And it can probably be implemented within 1 weekend. So effort is relatively low.)

Spoiler :

I really think Religion and Revolution will be the only CivCol-Mod that will be able to claim:
"We have rebuilt / integrated all good features of Original Colonization."

This we will probably do (if all team members like it):
Stirring Up Natives by Missionaries

Those are already done:
Bargaining With Natives, Light Green Savanna, Native Raids, Abandoning Cities, Bonusses on Peaks, ...

Also the stuff already in TAC:
Learning By Doing, European Wars, Natives Stealing and Equipping Weapons and Horses after Fight, Capturing Colonists, ...

I really cannot recall any good feature from Originial Colonization we will not have.

 

[raystuttgart]

@team:
Could you please all tell your opinion on this (Custom House)
before we get too deep into discussions on further new features ?

As I understand Gomer, he would really like to have it.

I am ok with it and would implement it in DLL if everybody agrees.

 

[Gomer_Pyle]

I have played alot lately and I have come up with a few suggestions that I think will be great features.

• 
  When a native nation attack and destroy other native settlements they gain treasures. What do they need treasures for? Their treasures just stand there. Is it possible to do something about this? I had a game where my native neighbour had like 20 of these treasures. I could attack them since I was very friendly here. An annoyance more than anything. Is it possible to code "not create the treasure" if the destroying nation is of native origin?

• Great Generals for Natives should be called Great Chieftains and have native indian models? Can we remodel the current Great General. Use the same animations just different look? Is it possible to add a unit like this. If we do what do we need to do codingwise? Can we use the same code as for Great General? Or duplicate?

• Would it be possible to add a more advanced "Scorelist" where you can see the leader name and nation name or possible choose what to see? On the bottom right corner of the screen. Possible to have like a "BUG" version for Colonization or something similar?

• Man the stockade effect. I am really missing a feature from a few great mods out there. I would think it would be in TAC but not seen any of it yet. If you are in war with a nation. Once one of enemy unit appear outside/move beside settlement with stockade or better this effect should be activated. And staionary defence should fire at moving enemy outside. Same thing goes for cannons stationed in settlements. When enemy ship goes by. They fire. But only available cannons? These two are Col94 features really missed. These feature is available in "Further Age of Discovery". This would be number 2 on the list I got that I really would fight to have on this mod after custom house ofcouse

• Max unit per tile. This is a feature I have seen in my favorite Civilization mod called "RoM-A New Dawn" by Afforess. I do beleave it is part of the BUG feature. And it is there to prevent the giant stacks of doom. I always loved to set the game limit to 5-10 unit per tile at the same time. These Stacks of doom is a problem in Civ4 but it also is a problem in colonization. Europeans have like 15 cannons and a great general.

• The way AI set up their army/stacks needs to be looked at? AI use just cannons?

 

[raystuttgart]

• 
  When a native nation attack and destroy other native settlements they gain treasures. What do they need treasures for? Their treasures just stand there. Is it possible to do something about this? I had a game where my native neighbour had like 20 of these treasures. I could attack them since I was very friendly here. An annoyance more than anything. Is it possible to code "not create the treasure" if the destroying nation is of native origin?

Good idea.
Maybe they could get directly gold instead ...

• Great Generals for Natives should be called Great Chieftains and have native indian models? Can we remodel the current Great General. Use the same animations just different look? Is it possible to add a unit like this. If we do what do we need to do codingwise? Can we use the same code as for Great General? Or duplicate?

This will be fixed in TAC.

• Would it be possible to add a more advanced "Scorelist" where you can see the leader name and nation name or possible choose what to see? On the bottom right corner of the screen. Possible to have like a "BUG" version for Colonization or something similar?

Possible, yes.
We just need somebody interested to implement it.
("Nice to have"-features like that tend to never be done ...)

• Man the stockade effect. I am really missing a feature from a few great mods out there. I would think it would be in TAC but not seen any of it yet. If you are in war with a nation. Once one of enemy unit appear outside/move beside settlement with stockade or better this effect should be activated. And staionary defence should fire at moving enemy outside. Same thing goes for cannons stationed in settlements. When enemy ship goes by. They fire. But only available cannons? These two are Col94 features really missed. These feature is available in "Further Age of Discovery". This would be number 2 on the list I got that I really would fight to have on this mod after custom house ofcouse

We had a long discussions about "Forts firing on ships" in TAC.

It was never implemented because AI could not handle it.
This is a nice idea but I fear it will totally ruin AI / balancing.

I am not saying that this is not possible, but it is difficult.
(A lot of effort for a relatively small effect ...)

• Max unit per tile. This is a feature I have seen in my favorite Civilization mod called "RoM-A New Dawn" by Afforess. I do beleave it is part of the BUG feature. And it is there to prevent the giant stacks of doom. I always loved to set the game limit to 5-10 unit per tile at the same time. These Stacks of doom is a problem in Civ4 but it also is a problem in colonization. Europeans have like 15 cannons and a great general.

Also had many long discussions about that.

50% of the people absolutely loved the idea.
50% of the people absolutely hated the idea.

This would also mean some really serious coding considering AI !
(AI heavily relies on "Stack of Doom"-Strategy.)

• The way AI set up their army/stacks needs to be looked at? AI use just cannons?

koma is still working on AI for TAC.
Let us see, what the final result of TAC 2.03 will be.

 

[Gomer_Pyle]

Man the stockade:
We had a long discussions about "Forts firing on ships" in TAC.

It was never implemented because AI could not handle it.
This is a nice idea but I fear it will totally ruin AI / balancing.

I am not saying that this is not possible, but it is difficult.
(A lot of effort for a relatively small effect ...)

I disagree this is a small effect. I really feel the game needs something like this. It is just one of these things that give me the "Authentic Colonization" feeling. Atleast it should be concidered/discussed in RaR again. This is afterall not TAC?
I have played alot with "Further Age of Discovery" mod for Colonization, and the AI seemed to handle the the "musketmen" firing on nearby enemies very well if you asked me. Not sure about the ships firing but that is not as important as "musketmen" firing. What did the TAC team base that its could not handle it on anyways?

Max Units per Tile:
Also had many long discussions about that.

50% of the people absolutely loved the idea.
50% of the people absolutely hated the idea.

This would also mean some really serious coding considering AI !
(AI heavily relies on "Stack of Doom"-Strategy.)

This is why through "the BUG menu" you can choose if you want the Max Unit per Tile turned on or off and even how many units per tile is accepted. Brilliant!

 

[raystuttgart]

I disagree this is a small effect. I really feel the game needs something like this. It is just one of these things that give me the "Authentic Colonization" feeling.

I did not want to say that the idea itself is not interesting.

Atleast it should be concidered/discussed in RaR again. This is afterall not TAC?

Sure, we can talk about it again.

I just wanted to say that some really good modders have been discussing it and have seen some serious problems and efforts.
(koma is probably the best modder considering AI in the complete CivCol-scene.)

And no, this is not TAC.

I have played alot with "Further Age of Discovery" mod for Colonization, and the AI seemed to handle the the "musketmen" firing on nearby enemies very well if you asked me. Not sure about the ships firing but that is not as important as "musketmen" firing. What did the TAC team base that its could not handle it on anyways?

I could take a look at the sources of "Further Age of Discovery".

Eventually they really considered the problems we saw.

One example:
If the king looses too many ships (and the troops inside) to forts (with cannons) because AI simply does not pay attention to this new feature,
then we would have added a new feature but totally destroyed game fun because WOI was too easily won.

A lot of mods implemented their features without paying good attention to AI.

I really do not want to do that.
I want quality in this mod.

When I am talking about AI being able to handle a feature like this, then I am thinking of "Adaption of Pathfinding", "Adaption of Strategies (Attacking, Defending, ...)", ...
(If AI simply ignores this new feature, then it does not handle it.)

This is why through "the BUG menu" you can choose if you want the Max Unit per Tile turned on or off and even how many units per tile is accepted. Brilliant!

See, something like "AI Strategy" (including creation of stacks) is very deeply coded into DLL and adjusting it to a game option is an awful lot of work.
(I can tell you right now, that I am not willing to take that extra effort. Sorry.)

So either we decide to have limited size of stacks or not.
If we decide to have it, then we need a good AI-concept.
If we do find a good AI concept, then we can implement the feature.

But again, I am not willing to sacrifice good AI and gamefun for a single feature.
(And "Stacks" is really a very central aspect of AI-strategy.)

 

[Gomer_Pyle]

Ok. Still learning here so please dont be offended with my stupid questions.

Well I still beleave it is would possible to limit the losses for the king if the biggest problem is the king losing ships. The king uses man'o'wars right? They could be more resistant to forts firing? There could be a very low percentage of chance of sinking and a bit higher of damaging. Only asking because it is rather stupid if a settlement wont be able to shoot from the stockade at natives plundering and pillaging outside. Not every settlement had a huge army to defend itself.

But I get it with AI needs to learn everything and its not that easy to program. But to be honest I feel that lots of other stuff like inventions ect. would be hard too? But I can hope for a feature like this anyways. It is just one of those things that would make the interaction with natives cooler.

 

[raystuttgart]

Ok. Still learning here so please dont be offended with my stupid questions.

Don't worry, I am not offended by questions.
I just try to explain.

Well I still beleave it is would possible to limit the losses for the king if the biggest problem is the king losing ships. The king uses man'o'wars right? They could be more resistant to forts firing? There could be a very low percentage of chance of sinking and a bit higher of damaging. Only asking because it is rather stupid if a settlement wont be able to shoot from the stockade at natives plundering and pillaging outside. Not every settlement had a huge army to defend itself.

But I get it with AI needs to learn everything and its not that easy to program. But to be honest I feel that lots of other stuff like inventions ect. would be hard too? But I can hope for a feature like this anyways. It is just one of those things that would make the interaction with natives cooler.

The "Ships of King during WOI" was only one out of many examples that need to be considered with "Forts with Cannons firing on Ships / Pallisades with Military Units firing on enemies on land".

Something like "Limited Size of Stacks" is extremely difficult to explain to AI.

I am not saying these things are impossible.
And of course, other things have to be taught to AI too.

I am just saying:

* Do not undererstimate efforts of features like that.
* A lot of things and side effects have to be considered.
* AI really is absolutely critcal considering game fun.

 

[KJ Jansson]

@team:
Could you please all tell your opinion on this (Custom House)
before we get too deep into discussions on further new features ?

I like the idea of Custom House.

Only one remark. How changes (if changes at all) the relations Player-King if the player sells some boycotted goods through Custom House?

Concerning "Max Units per Tile" and some other (further) features:

Is it possible to separate:
- the human plays with this (MORE DIFFICULT) possibility (let's can have max 4 or 5 units/tile)
- but AI can store as many units as AI can (that is to play with more preferred conditions)?
Or the conditions must be similar for both human and AI player, as we have now?

 

[raystuttgart]

I like the idea of Custom House.

Great.

How changes (if changes at all) the relations Player-King if the player sells some boycotted goods through Custom House?

In the current concept: None.

Concerning "Max Units per Tile" and some other (further) features:

Is it possible to separate:
- the human plays with this (MORE DIFFICULT) possibility (let's can have max 4 or 5 units/tile)
- but AI can store as many units as AI can (that is to play with more preferred conditions)?
Or the conditions must be similar for both human and AI player, as we have now?

No, please no different rules for Human and AI for stacking.
This would totally destroy balancing and game fun.
AI would have a much too big advantage over human players then.

 

[raystuttgart]

About these 2 ideas:

Forts with Cannons fire on Ships / Pallisades with Defensive Units fire on Enemy Units on Land

If the rest of the team wants it, I will try to create a detailled (technical) concept.
(... which I will then try to implement.)

I do not promise anything. This will be a lot of work ...
This will seriously change gameplay. (Defending might become a lot easier.)
We will need to do a lot of testing !

Limiting Sizes of Stacks

I am really totally against it.
This is simply too big of an experiment.
Too much efforts, too high danger of serious AI-problems and bugs.
Seriously, AI depends on creating large stacks !
I do not feel like drastically reworking AI-Military-Strategies, as long as they are working.

 

[KJ Jansson]

No, please no different rules for Human and AI for stacking.
This would totally destroy balancing and game fun.
AI would have a much too big advantage over human players then.

No, Ray!

I don't speak about "Max Units per Tile" concept. This feature is not so interesting for me and I used it just as an example.

My question was related the principal position: to separate the rules for AI (as simple) and for human player (as more complex).

Let's see a ship that return in home city after storm. This ship has a damage (zB. 50% HP).
Current rules for both AI and human player: 1-2 days in home city and your ship restored 100% HP.

However, I'm interesting in a more complex variant.
- AI "repairs" his ship as usually during 1-2 days and without materials,
- human player repairs his ship longer and spend some quantity of materials (Wood, Ropes and Sailcloth) for this operation.

That is a human player has more complex conditions and he is free to decide to send his ship in Europe as is (with only 50% HP) or to spend some time/materials and restore 100% HP for his ship.