[Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

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My question was related the principal position: to separate the rules for AI (as simple) and for human player (as more complex).

It is done very often and also will be done very often to have "easy" rules for AI and "complex" rules for human.

However, if rules for AI and human players are too different, this is often considered as "AI-cheats" and I want to limit their usage to an absolute minimum.
(I would only want to use "AI-cheats" if any other solution is really extremely complex or dangerous to implement.)

@team:
Trust me, I will do my best to create features without using "AI-cheats". :thumbsup:
It is really important for me to have "same chances" and also "same rules" for AI and human players.
 
Hi guys, :wavey:

before we drift away into other discussions, I would like to have opinions (to eventually get a decision) about:

Some more Diplomacy Trade Options

Stirring Up of Natives by Missionaries

Changes to Custom House

Forts and Pallisades firing on Enemies outside city / Limitting Size of Stacks

So all teammember who have not told their opinion on these topics, please do so in the next days. :)

OK to all.

Just couple small remarks concerning "Forts and Pallisades firing on Enemies outside city / Limitting Size of Stacks".

I guess it would be nice if Forts and Pallisades could fire on Enemies outside city, if an armed unit (soldier or artillery) is present in the city.

"Limitting Size of Stacks" feature is not important for me. You can exclude or accept it, doesn't matter for me.
 
I guess it would be nice if Forts and Pallisades could fire on Enemies outside city, if an armed unit (soldier or artillery) is present in the city.

Yes, actually the unit (Militia or Cannon) inside the city will fire, not the building itself.

I just wanted to know if this idea is generally interesting to you.
If yes, then I will try to create a detailled technical concept within the next days. :thumbsup:

"Limitting Size of Stacks" feature is not important for me. You can exclude or accept it, doesn't matter for me.

As I said, I am really against this, but I would like to hear your opinions on that, too. :)
 
I just wanted to know if this idea is generally interesting to you.
If yes, then I will try to create a detailled technical concept within the next days. :thumbsup:

As I said, I am really against this, but I would like to hear your opinions on that, too. :)

Thank you for your comments. My answer concerning "Forts and Pallisades firing on Enemies outside city / Limitting Size of Stacks"

Forts and Pallisades firing on Enemies outside city - yes

Probably I play too short time in CivIVColonization, but I never seen really large stacks of units on one tile. Even the big city had maximum 5 units in my games. Therefore

Limitting Size of Stacks - no
 
Maximum number of units per tile was just a suggestion, since i really love it and use it with great success in civ4. Just make it a bonus feature we can do if we get time laters. :) I will take screen shot next time i see 15-20 cannons and a great general aka Stack of Doom. :)

If we can get a working solution on "Forts and Pallisades firing on Enemies outside city" I would soon forget the size of stack idea. hehe

When i remember. If any of you need help with anything next couple of days let me know what. That being research / proof reading or other stuff not including to much programming. :)
 
Diplomacy & Trade Options
Why not. Might add another element to the game, allow you to take a sneak peak at what your opponents are doing without having to have open boarders.

Stirring up Natives by Missionaries
I like this one, I think it could be fun.

Forts & Pallisades
I'm on the fence about this one. Great if you are the defender, and are in a real pinch and cannot get forces back to your colony quickly. But how much more difficult would it be if you were attacking a settlement? I would hate to be able to win a war of independence by just filling my colonies with cannon and sitting behind the walls of my forts. On the flip side what if the king managed to do this. He could turn several colonies into virtual "Gilbrators", especially with the amount of weapons he has at his disposal.

Limiting Stacking
I'm with Ray on this one, I would not like to see this feature implemented either.
 
Forts & Pallisades
I'm on the fence about this one. Great if you are the defender, and are in a real pinch and cannot get forces back to your colony quickly. But how much more difficult would it be if you were attacking a settlement? I would hate to be able to win a war of independence by just filling my colonies with cannon and sitting behind the walls of my forts. On the flip side what if the king managed to do this. He could turn several colonies into virtual "Gilbrators", especially with the amount of weapons he has at his disposal.

The effect against the king can be greatly reduced can it not? Make it like 50-75% (probably best with 75%) less effective against "Experienced European Troops"? Since experienced troops would not let themselfes get caught in the open like that. And once the WOI starts you can have an event to create the "Colonial Army" making your army "Experienced" and less prone to be overwhelmed by this feature? There is possibly other way around this problem too.

...

Another thing I have thought about is. Why isnt it possible to create alliances? You got Permanent Alliance, but that is permanent and almost like a cheat. Defencive Pact is only there to defend. But why isnt there any "Alliance" just like Permanent Alliance but it is possible to break?
 
But why isnt there any "Alliance" just like Permanent Alliance but it is possible to break?

Answer: AI. :)
(AI is not smart enought to handle things like "breaking contracts", like a human player could.)

Answer 2: I don't think it is needed.
(You already have cases and the according diplomacy in game when other players join into a war on a certain side.
Which basically is an Alliance. It is even treated / called like that in DLL.)

For me having "Defensive Pact" and "Permanent Alliance" is just fine. :dunno:
 
Hello everyone,

Sorry if I haven't posted much lately :(... Work !
Hopefully things are getting much better now (or technically in a few days)!

I agree with the Custom house modification. (40% of basic price for boycotted goods).
It should be unlocked with inventions and not founding fathers (since C4C founding fathers are limited to one nation!)...And yes, Custom house should generate FF points (trade points if and only if we trade something ;) )

I like the idea of stirring natives. And I thing it should be priceless (I mean it shouldn't cost any gold, but of course it can fail...). If I've read correctly, we will not get any attitude penalty towards other Europeans... Seems good !
 
I have played alot lately and I have come up with a few suggestions that I think will be great features.


  • When a native nation attack and destroy other native settlements they gain treasures. What do they need treasures for? Their treasures just stand there. Is it possible to do something about this? I had a game where my native neighbour had like 20 of these treasures. I could attack them since I was very friendly here. An annoyance more than anything. Is it possible to code "not create the treasure" if the destroying nation is of native origin?
Good idea!
Maybe they should get directly gold instead...
I agree. But, that's only half of the problem!
Maybe we will not be able to fix the other half of the problem, but in my opinion there are two different aspects.
1) Only Europeans should get treasures.
2) Natives don't know what to do with treasures.
Couldn't we add a treasure unit action: convert to gold, and Native AI would automatically trigger it. I know this may seem extremely theoretical since they would only get treasures if we give them one, or if they capture one from Europeans. But I really hate the idea of keeping a bug that has been noticed :scan:
  • Great Generals for Natives should be called Great Chieftains and have native indian models? Can we remodel the current Great General. Use the same animations just different look? Is it possible to add a unit like this. If we do what do we need to do codingwise? Can we use the same code as for Great General? Or duplicate?
Yes, this has been fixed in TAC as Ray said, and in DoNE, and probably in some other mods. I don't know if the name has been changed though...
  • Would it be possible to add a more advanced "Scorelist" where you can see the leader name and nation name or possible choose what to see? On the bottom right corner of the screen. Possible to have like a "BUG" version for Colonization or something similar?
Yeeeeeeees ! :goodjob:
One more thing to add to my no more variables hidden feature.:beer:
 
  • Man the stockade effect. I am really missing a feature from a few great mods out there. I would think it would be in TAC but not seen any of it yet. If you are in war with a nation. Once one of enemy unit appear outside/move beside settlement with stockade or better this effect should be activated. And staionary defence should fire at moving enemy outside. Same thing goes for cannons stationed in settlements. When enemy ship goes by. They fire. But only available cannons? These two are Col94 features really missed. These feature is available in "Further Age of Discovery". This would be number 2 on the list I got that I really would fight to have on this mod after custom house of couse
I love the idea! :goodjob:
  • Max unit per tile. This is a feature I have seen in my favorite Civilization mod called "RoM-A New Dawn" by Afforess. I do beleave it is part of the BUG feature. And it is there to prevent the giant stacks of doom. I always loved to set the game limit to 5-10 unit per tile at the same time. These Stacks of doom is a problem in Civ4 but it also is a problem in colonization. Europeans have like 15 cannons and a great general.
I don't see the point... Let's say you want to limit the amount of my shiny little dragoons per tile. What will I do? If I have 10 dragoons and if I can only have 5 per tile...well I'll simply 5 on one tile and 5 on another... Oh crap. Now my dragoons are angry because you separated them!
I'm sorry but I don't like the idea!

50% of the people absolutely loved the idea.
50% of the people absolutely hated the idea.
:lol:

  • The way AI set up their army/stacks needs to be looked at? AI use just cannons?
koma is still working on AI for TAC.
Long live koma!:bday:
 
As I said I love this idea. This feature (Forts firing on ships) is really missing !
We had a long discussions about "Forts firing on ships" in TAC.

It was never implemented because AI could not handle it.
This is a nice idea but I fear it will totally ruin AI / balancing.

I am not saying that this is not possible, but it is difficult.
(A lot of effort for a relatively small effect ...)

:dunno:
Really, why is that? I guess the firing part isn't the problem.
Fort will automatically open fire on an enemy ship. Am I right?
What does the AI have to handle? I can only think of two problems

A) I haven't understood ! ;)
You weren't trying to implement a "Forts automatically firing on ships" feature but a
"Forts manually firing on ships"

B) AI doesn't know how to end his turn. AI units would probably avoid coast tiles and end their turn on ocean tiles (without any storms on it :lol:)

Have I missed something?
By the way, for now there's a few thing I forgot to implement in my Wind/Storm feature. I forgot to "tell" AI it shouldn't end turns on a storm tile... There may be some things to correct. I'm a little embarrassed :blush:
 
Ok guys, here is a concept:

Cannons in Citadel bombarding Enemies outside City

In TAC there is a building called "Citadel", which can be built if you have a "Fortress" in that city.
(Currently it would only give further 30% Defensive Bonus.)
If you have that building in your city, your Cannon-Type Units will be able to bombard enemies outside a city.

1.) At the end of a turn, every city (with Citadel) will be allowed to do exactly 1 Bombardment-Attack.

2.) The Bombardment-Attack could have enemy unit on land or enemy ship as target.

3.) Exactly 1 cannon-type unit in your city will do that attack.
(The strongest one is chosen.)

The unit must be fortified in the city for more than 1 round.
(So if you already attacked with that unit, it cannot do a bombarding-attack in the same round.)

So it will not make any difference if you have 1 or more cannon-type units in your city.
The maximum damage would be the same.
(Explanation: Only one of them really is placed in the "Citadel".)

4.) The damage will be calculated by "Bombardment"-Damage.
(Normal Cannons will also get some Bombardment-Damage.)

There is some random in there of course.

5.) Usually you will not directly destroy a stronger enemy unit but only damage it.

Which is ok, because you are bombarding a far away target.

6.) Enemies cannot fight back on such an attack.

7.) Of course, AI will also use this feature when having Citadels and Cannons in City.
(Otherwise no special strategies are taught to AI. Which is not necessary because the feature really is limited in power.)

-------------

Thus this feature will:

A) Be limited in power.

You cannot sit in your cities with 10 cannons each and simply blow away all enemies approaching.
Since only one cannon will participate the possible damage is limited.

B) Since it is at the end of a turn, the enemy will still have the chances to do the following:

* Conquer the city before a city starts bombarding (with fast Cavalry for example).
* Ships (of King for example) could still land their troops before being sunk.

-------------

Summary:

This feature will add a little atmosphere.

Enemies cannot simply stand around cities anymore without being attacked.

Bombardment is of no risk for the Bombarding / Defending Unit inside the city.

Mostly bombarding will weaken your enemies so that you might totally destroy them with counter attacks.

These bombarding attacks will not be strong enough to totally bring the game out of balance.

Yes, the feature will add a small advantage for the defending side.
(Also a littel advantage for Europeans, because Natives don't have cannons.)

However, you will need a Citadel and you will also need to have cannon-type units.
(Cannon-type units will be "more expensive" in Religion and Revolution, than in TAC,
because they will be professions and will also need gun-powder to be equipped.)

Comment:

I believe that with this concept we would get 3 things:

1. A little more atmosphere.
2. Make defending a little easier but not endangering balance.
3. A concept that AI can generally handle without teaching it special new strategies.

I have explicitly not made a concept with "Firing when Enemy moves by a city" because then I would have to check every time a unit moves.
-> Much less performant than simply checking cities at end of turn.

By the way:
I could probably have this feature done in a few hours.
(Effort would be relatively low because no new complex AI-strategies to be created.)

Feedback ? :)
 
Natives and Treasures

Let us simply transform a Native Treasure into gold, once it has reached a Native village. :dunno:

Scorelist

Robert, if you are interested, then go ahead. :thumbsup:
 
How is it solved in "Further Age of Discovery"? Does it check every time a unit moves? I am not sure this concept is what I was thinking. I do hope "Firing when Enemy moves by a city" isnt forgotten. That was the main feature idea I had.
 
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