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[Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Religion and Revolution' started by Robert Surcouf, Sep 5, 2011.

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  1. Robert Surcouf

    Robert Surcouf Civ4Col Modder

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    I'm quite impressed!

    I'll try to explain my "no more variables hidden" feature. Sometimes I find it quite difficult to understand what's happening in the game. Diplomacy is sometimes weird. For instance, in one of my games, when I contacted Simon Bolivar, I could see a +1 diplomatic bonus, and yet he was ANNOYED. On the contrary, Montezuma I had -1 extra attitude, and yet, Montezuma was pleased. I actually didn't understand why...

    So I started looking into the C++ code and decided to show every attitude modifier in-game. Here's what you can see now:

    Montezuma has a +4 base attitude bonus! He is quite easy to please.

    As you can see I've added new "blue" texts (King's base attitude is worth 0).
    You logically get three colors:
    - Green for a positive attitude modifier
    - Blue for neutral attitude modifier
    - Red for a negative attitude modifier
     
  2. Robert Surcouf

    Robert Surcouf Civ4Col Modder

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    Sometimes, this even helped me to find some bugs or even improvement ideas.
    Every native leader has a neutral Native attitude (+0: "Your strange manners intrigue us"). I would rather change that, since some natives weren't friendly with other natives (negative native attitude). On the contrary, some were quite friendly (positive native attitude).
     
  3. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Currently I am supporting the TAC-team to do a rebalancing of Diplomacy / Leaderheads.
    There will be a lot of changes and to my oppinion great improvements.
    (here you can read a little)

    So attitiudes of Europeans towards Natives or Natives towards Natives will change.
    (Basically the whole Diplomacy is rebalanced.)

    I think we should better not touch this aspect right now.
    (I believe you will like the new settings of TAC 2.03.)
     
  4. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    About "No More Variables Hidden":

    Great implementation ! :thumbsup:
    This might be very helpful for beginners.

    However it also destroys a little illusion and atmosphere. :)
    As I said, I myself do not like to see all the time what the game does or calculates in the background.

    So I suggest the following:

    If we implement this feature as Game Option like ("Random Seed") everybody can decide if he wants to see that "hidden" information or not.

    Summary:

    You did a great job and I accept the feature for our list. :thumbsup:
    But please let us implement it as Game Option. :)

    Would that be ok for you ?
     
  5. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Second / All European Immigration Pool

    By the way:
    I will describe the implementation the way it would be if "Catholics and Protestants" is implemented.

    The basic idea:

    There are immigrants from all over Europe (e.g. Russia, Poland, Greece, ...) wanting to go to the New World
    European Colonies should be competing for those immigrants !

    1. In Europe Screen there is a Second Immigration Pool which symbols the immigrant from all other European Nations.
    All European Nations share that pool !
    If one European Nations takes out an immigrant from that pool, it is lost for the others.

    Immigrants acquired from that pool will also arrive at the dock.

    2. I thought about 2 possible design solutions:

    A) There is a Button which will simply open a Pop-Up-Window displaying the pool

    B) There are arrows on the rigth side of the screen where you can have it slide in and out of the Europe screens.

    But actually I am open to any ideas concerning the graphical design of that screen.
    (I am very bad at screen. :) )

    3. The "National Immigration Pool" and the "All European Immigration Pool" are totally independent of each other.
    There are no side-effects between them.
    The "National Immigration Pool" will continue to work as it does right now.

    4. Immigration from that pool

    Part 1: When will immigrant be willing to immigrate at all ?

    In General this part works similar to normal immigration,
    meaning by collecting crosses and with an increasing threshold for every immigrant.

    Protestant crosses for Protestant Immigrants, with its own threshold.
    Catholic crosses for Catholic Immigrants, with its own threshold.

    The big difference is that not one single player collects the crosses for that pool but all European Nations together !

    So basically the amounts of crosses the single players create in one round are summed up and added to the account of the "All European Pool" and once there are more crosses than the threshold the immigration is triggered.
    By that also the threshold is increased.

    Part 2: To which European Nation will they immigrate ?
    (Meaning at which European dock will they appear ?)

    This is the interesting part !
    They will basically decide by Attractivity of the Colonies which is used as base for a random !
    (So it is calculated chances. No determinism !)

    I will try to explain with an example and some basic formulas:

    We have 2 European Nations and a Protestant Immigrant was triggered from that pool:

    Nation A:
    Output of Protestant Crosses by Round: 100
    Satisfaction / Happiness of Colonists: 80%
    Number of Cities: 3
    Average Attitude of other European Nations toward A: +2

    Nation B:
    Output of Protestant Crosses by Round: 50
    Satisfaction / Happiness of Colonists: 100%
    Number of Cities: 2
    Average Attitude of other European Nations toward B: +3

    This will give Attractivities:

    Att_A = (x* 100 + y* 3 + z* 2) * 80
    Att_B = (x* 50 + y* 2 + z* 3) * 100
    Att_Total = Att_A + Att_B

    x, y, z are XML-Variables in the GlobalDefines_Alt.xml to do the Balancing for that Feature !

    So ok the Chances of the Nations to get that settler:

    Nation A getting the settler: P_A = Att_A / Att_Total
    Nation B getting the settler: P_B = Att_B / Att_Total

    With these Chances a Random will decide which Nation will get the Immigrant !
    (I really like Randoms, I have implemented a lot of them. :) )

    5. Bribing settler from the "All European Immigration Pool" to come to you !

    In the "All European Immigration Pool" there is no hurrying of immigration !

    The only thing you can do is bribe certain immigrants in order to increase the chances to come to you instead of another Nation.
    It does not give you certainty for success !

    This is how the chances would change:

    Att_A = (x* 100 + y* 3 + z* 2) * 80 * w
    Att_B = (x* 50 + y* 2 + z* 3) * 100
    Att_Total = Att_A + Att_B

    Nation A getting the settler: P_A = Att_A / Att_Total
    Nation B getting the settler: P_B = Att_B / Att_Total

    Again w is a XML-Variable in the GlobalDefines_Alt.xml to do the Balancing.

    Once you click an immigrant in the "All European Immigration Pool" there will be another small Pop-Up that will ask you if you want to bribe that immigrant and tell you the price for it.

    If you agree, then the gold for the bribe is substracted from your account.
    (You never get it back. It is a risk !)

    Every active bribe (in the pool) will increase the cost of the next bribe in the pool.

    You can not bribe the same immigrant more than once.
    However you can try to bribe several immigrants in the pool.
    (Every immigant that is still in the pool and you have a bribe on is an "active" bribe.)

    The base-price and the price increase for each active bribe would also be XML-Variables in the GlobalDefines_Alt.xml to do the Balancing.

    So ok, when bribing an immigrant you simply increase the chance that he will decide for you, you do not hurry the decision to immigrate.

    If both Nations A and B should bribe that immigrant, then the chances are basically the same as if none of them had tried to bribe. ;)

    I am very sorry if there are so many formulas and balancing-values in there.
    But I did not know how to describe it in details otherwise.

    AI will of course use this feature (including bribing) !
    (However AI will try to bribe only very moderate, meaning maximum 2 at a time and only if it has a certain amount of money.
    More valuable immigrants, like Statesmen or Scous, will be bribed first.)

    Summary:

    In the "All European Immigration Pool" all Europeans compete for the same Immigrants.
    The rate of Immigration is influence by the ammount of crosses all nations together produce.
    The chances for the decision to which Nation the Immigrant will go depens on Attractivity of the Nations.
    You can try to influence the chances by bribing.
    However, every active bribe will become more expensive, so you should choose wisely.

    So ok, that is this concept.

    What do you think about it ? :)
     
  6. Robert Surcouf

    Robert Surcouf Civ4Col Modder

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    Absolutely ! Everyone should be able to choose how he wants to play!

    It's really good. I haven't thought about your formulas... But I'll trust you on that part ! :D
     
  7. colonialfan

    colonialfan Warlord

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    Some of the other ideas that are being discussed for this mod sound very interesting and promising. If incorporated I'm sure they would enhance the gameplay.

    Like I said I'm not a modder of any kind, and my technical knowhow is very limited, but if you need any help around the historical details of the colonial period, I'd be more than happy to pitch in.
     
  8. colonialfan

    colonialfan Warlord

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    Ignore this message got carried away with the enter button
     
  9. colonialfan

    colonialfan Warlord

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    Sorry I forgot to add Portugal to the list of European civs.
     
  10. RenaissanceFan

    RenaissanceFan Warlord

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    Yes. Now that makes me remember, I made a special component using that to variate the amount of food needed for a colonist to appear. Do you want it?


    And I have a few other ideas:

    Tax Remake: As taxes, the King could request either a shipment of goods, or simply money. And the taxes must also reach the motherland by ship, no more "money teleportation".

    Variable Taxation: Each country had it's system of handling taxes. We could implement it as follows:

    --> Spain: all-round taxing, Treasure Fleet (see below), highest taxes in-game;
    --> Portugal: same as Spain, but to a lesser degree, and no Fleet;
    --> England: quite relaxed, with "spikes", that is, sudden periods of high taxing;
    --> Netherlands: most relaxed, lowest taxes in-game;
    --> France: very demanding about product taxes, very relaxed about money taxes.

    Tax Evasion: You could agree to pay the taxes, but work behind the scenes to evade it. Two ways to do so:

    --> Bribing government officials on the colonies: as it says. Easiest to do as Portuguese colonies.
    --> Capturing the shipment in high seas: as it says too. Harder as Spanish colonies.

    The Treasure Fleet: If you're playing as Spain, a special ship could come every 30 turns or so to load itself with goods and gold from your ports. The loading itself can't be stopped, but the Fleet would be quite vulnerable in the high seas...

    The Merchant Republic: If you're playing as the Netherlands, you could get rewards from the King by flouting mercantilist colonies and trading a lot. Broadening this one, I think the Netherlands should be handled specially. They didn't really want colonies after all, but actually trade...

    Mercantilism: as it says. Some colonies can't trade with others unless the King removes this system. But it could be surpassed by military force or merchant force.

    Added later: Sucessor State: When you declare independence, you could choose to become one of the preset countries, based on your mother country. Portugal would be special, it would always become Brazil.

    Spain: Mexico, Gran Colombia, Argentina, Peru, Cuba, Florida;
    England: US, Canada, Jamaica, Caribbean Isles;
    France: Caribbean Isles, Martinique, Guadeloupe, Haiti, Bahamas.

    Added later: Leader Count: You could have one leader for every state listed above. So, Portugal would be only one, England four, France five, and Spain six. That way, the game would become quite diverse.

    Added later: Multiple Leader Revolution: You should be able to convince other leaders of the same mother country to help your cause. Each leader could be assigned a loyalty score.
     
  11. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Sorry, but I do not like that. :(

    It would be quite some work and very little benefit concerning gameplay in my eyes.
    (When creating new feature we must always also think about AI.)

    Sorry again, I do not like that either.

    Yes, there should be some small distinctions between nations and Leaders.

    But all nations should basically have same chances to win !

    What you are suggesting would introduce way to large differences between the nations and would be a lot of work to implement and explain to the users.

    It is very important to have balanced gameplay !
    (Especially for Multiplayer)

    Sorry again, I do not like that. :(
    Again this would introduce to large differences between Spain and the other nations.

    Same problem as above.

    No specific features for one Nation.

    I have a large concept about trading with other nations, that I will introduce soon. :)

    Currently for this project I really want to focus on the phase of War of Independence.

    Please let us leave discussions about features that do something after the War of Independence for other projects. :)


    No again.
    Differences between Nations should not be that significant to my opinion.

    Alomst nobody I know plays with 2 leaderheads of the same country in one game.



    @RenaissanceFan:

    I am very sorry that I sound so "negative" about some of your ideas.
    But I really want to take care of game balance and also focus on a certain era of time.

    Also there is the factor Effort / Fun
    (Fun is very very subjectiv of course. :) )

    By the way:

    This does not mean, that I am not interested in your ideas. :thumbsup:
    I simply try to tell my opinion honestly. :)
     
  12. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Portugal is included in TAC, which we will use as base for this project. :)
    So we already have it. :thumbsup:
     
  13. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Great. :)
    (I will try to find a feature you do not like now. :lol:)

    It is only a basic idea of how it should work.

    There are a lot of XML-Variables to balance the formulas !
    (Good Balancing of such a feature is essential.)

    It would be quite easy to change the formulas later on and add new factors for example.
     
  14. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Rebuild of Missioning System
    (@Robert: This Feature is already fully implemented in my Preview)


    1. Chances of Success

    The Chances of Success for creating a mission in a native village does not depend on the number of missions you have in total at all native nations anymore !

    Instead it depends only on the number of all missions existing at that specific native nation.

    -> Any mission you create at a native nation will lower the chances of your opponents to create one at that nation. (and vice-versa of course)
    -> Mission you have at Tupi will not influence your chances of creating a mission at Inka.

    The Attitude of the Native Nation towards you also effects the chances of creating a mission.
    (If they like you, it is easier, if they don't it is harder.)

    There is a minimum and a maximum value of chances. (25% and 90%)

    2. Existing Missions

    An existing mission of another European in a native village will lower your chances to create your mission (meaning destroyin his) by 50%.

    Destroying a mission of another European Nation does have negative effect on the relationship to that Nation.
    (Negative impact on Attitude of that Nation.)

    Your chances of replacing the mission of another European Nation are also affected by the Attitudes of Native Nation towards you and the other European Nation.

    3. Effect of Missions

    If you successfully create missions at a Native Nation this will have a small positive effect on the Attitude of that nation towards you.

    So you can improve attitudes of Natives and thus maybe keep peace by successfully missioning them.

    Failed attempts of missioning continue to have a negative effect on attitude.


    Feedback ? :)
     
  15. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Abandoning Cities
    (@Robert: This Feature is already fully implemented in my Preview)

    It is based on a mod-component from Trachmyr.
    (I added improvements.)

    It basically works like the "Abandon City" from Original CivCol.

    A) Drag&Drop the last Citizen of a City to the Garrison-Area in City-Screen.
    B) You can equip that settlers in that process if you want.
    C) There will be a warning that the city will be lost soon.
    D) Now you have time till the end of the game turn
    - to change your mind and put a settler in the city again -> this will stop the abandoning
    - send ships or wagontrains for example to the empty city to take out the last goods.
    E) When you finish the game turn, the city is lost.

    Feedback ? :)
     
  16. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Changes to Entering Peaks
    (@Robert: This Feature is already fully implemented in my Preview)

    Reason:

    I play on enormously large maps !
    There I usually have large mountain areas and it always disturbed me that any unit could walk over peaks like they were nothing.

    Now peaks are both OBSTACLES for untrained / unequipped units and PROTECTION from invading enemy armies.

    This feature is pretty simple:

    A) Natives, Native Mercenaries, Seasoned Scouts and Settlers in Profession Pioneer can always enter peaks.

    Natives and Native Mercenaries -> They know the Terrain (like passed for the mountains)
    Seasoned Scouts -> They are trained to find wayst through terrain and to survive
    Settlers in Profession Pioneer -> They have the right equipment.

    B) All other units (Treasures, Cavalery, Cannons, Wagon Trains, Settlers, ...) can only enter peaks if there is a road (or railroad)


    Spoiler :







    Feedback ? :)
     
  17. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Little Roundwise Income of Native Villages
    (Feature fully implemented but not part of my Preview.)

    I have introduced new Features with Natives like "Bargaining with Natives like in Original CivCol".
    (And have concepts for others too.)

    These features make it a lot more interesting to trade or bargain with Natives.

    To let these features work a little better I have created the following small feature.

    Basic Idea:

    Native Nations generate a small income every round which depends on the number of their cities.

    There are some random chances in it.
    And of course like I usually do, this feature can fully be balanced by XML.

    This small generation of money could be explained by:
    * Natives finding some gold
    * Natives trading with travellers passing their cities
    ...

    So basically:

    1. The maximum amount of money (income_max) a Native Nation can generate depends on the number of its cities.
    A random will generate a gold value between 0 and income_max.

    2. The money generation is not supposed to generate infinite riches for Natives !

    If the Native Nation already has more money than income_max * X it will not generate new money for that nation.
    (X is a balancing variable in XML.)

    So basically in the beginning when they have a lot of money or if they earn a lot of money (bargaining, trade, buying native mercenaries, ...) nothing will happen.

    -> It is only supposed to fill up their gold a little so you can always bargain or trade with them at least a bit !

    Feedback ? :)
     
  18. RenaissanceFan

    RenaissanceFan Warlord

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    Perhaps my ideas could be implemented as game options? That way, everyone could choose what they want.
     
  19. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    We are not going to put into this mod everything that is possible, sorry. ;)
    (We will only do the things we really like.)

    I know, people have a lot of ideas and wishes but please accept that we cannot accept them all. :thumbsup:
    (Of course you are welcome to introduce your ideas.)

    I really do not want to be impolite, but we have to stay realistic. :)
    (Features have to be implemented by somebody.)
     
  20. colonialfan

    colonialfan Warlord

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    I like the idea of mountains being less accessible, as discussed in post #37. If you are playing from an historical perspective, then mountains would play an important part in the game. For example if you are the Spanish, and only select unit can access mountain ranges, you really have to plan ahead about how you are going to deal with the Inca's whose whole civilization was pretty much in mountain ranges. Or alternatively if you are playing as the English, the Appalachian mountains act as a natural barrier to prevent rapid expansion westward.
     
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