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[Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Religion and Revolution' started by Robert Surcouf, Sep 5, 2011.

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  1. agnat86

    agnat86 Warlord

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    Hello everyone!

    There are some great ideas here. I discovered the TAC mod only today, so I don't know much about it yet, but I have played the AoDII mod, which I really like.

    My programming/modmaking skills are limited to changing some text and numbers in xml files, so I don't think I can be very useful in the technical stuff, but I have some ideas I can share. I hope my post won't be too boring or too long.:)

    Diversity among Natives

    In the original game, all natives function essentially in the same way, making them more or less interchangeable and a little dull. More diversity could be created by, for example:

    - allowing them to build terrain improvements (many natives built farms and cleared forests, and the road network of the Incas is legendary)
    - giving them bonuses for preferred terrains, for example giving Apache bonuses on plains, Mayas in jungles, and Incas in mountains. A disadvantage would be that these would only matter if the civ happens to be in the right climate.
    - having certain native civs train certain specialists (Weaver for Incas, Blacksmith for Aztecs, Fur Trader for Inuit).
    - Allowing advanced civs to manufacture certain goods themselves. This also makes trading with the natives more profitable, as they have more goods we want to buy (or steal).

    Interaction with natives

    The way Europeans and natives interact in the original is rather limited, as you either live side by side with them or you eradicate them. Possible alternatives include:
    - Enslave them, creating enslaved natives as an alternative to converted ones
    - Conquer them, as the Spanish did in Mexico. You gain control over their units and cities.
    - Make them tributaries, taxing them in gold or goods, or forcing/prohibiting them to take declare war or make peace.

    Of course, the above possibilities would greatly increase the amount of natives in your colonies. Nice events might be occasional rebellions when you treat them badly. Likewise, rebellions of African slaves could also be a nice addition if slavery is implemented, after all, that is how the French lost Haiti.

    Also, more diplomatic options like alliances would be great, or asking them to help to defend your colonies.

    Native attitude

    - In both vanilla and AodII, by far the most important factor influencing native attitude is -way too much: "your way of life is threatening to ours." While this is realistic for natives close by, I was a little discouraged in one of my games when Sitting Bull was already Furious when I contacted him for the very first time.

    - Perhaps close territorial expansion should matter more, and overall size of your civ less?
    - Positive interaction with natives, like trading, should also decrease the threat level, as natives grow accustomed to the culture of the settlers.

    Perhaps the native attitude should be more affected by definite events, positive (gifts, alliances, peace) and negative (war, land stealing, war with friends, enslavement), which are more measurable and easier to influence with gameplay choices than some obscure "threat."

    Also, I find it very strange that natives don't object to you claiming their land when your borders expand. Perhaps the game could give you the same options as when you buy land to found a colony (buy, steal or leave)?

    On another note, is it also possible to allow a colony to work the tiles newly acquired when borders expand?

    Native civs

    I really like the new civs of AoDII, the Zapotec, Guarani and Toltec (though the last one is an anachronism, and probably should be left out). Can they be implemented into this mod as well? Other additions I'd like are the Inuit, Algonquin and Haida.

    Also, exploration can be made more perilous by creating independent native barbarians.

    Fellow colonies

    In the vanilla version, fellow europeans are nothing but a nuisance, taking land, founding fathers and goodies that otherwise would have been yours.

    While this is of course fine, it would be nice if there were more reasons to not eradicate them after you've exchanged world maps with the guy who has the FF that reveals all burial grounds.

    - Currently, the AI of fellow Europeans spends all the gold it has, which makes it impossible for you to sell anything to them. Could this be modified?

    Also, diplomacy with the king is very limited in vanilla.

    - I saw that in TAC the king can drag you into wars, which is great. Could we also do it the other way round, having the king forbid you to attack other colonies? Perhaps you could then try to convince the king to declare war by doing him favors.
    - There should also be more ways to make the king happy, and this should result in bonuses. Perhaps we can make the king spontaneously send military, resources or gold to aid you when you've pleased him? A similar role can of course be played by the religious parent, of course
    - Quite often, the fate of a colony was decided by treaties made in Europe. Perhaps we can have the king suddenly announcing that he sold one of your colonies to a rival? Perhaps you could then choose to refuse, angering the king, or try to bribe him out of it.

    More resources

    In AoDII, there is Coffee, gold and indigo, and I've seen that TAC features cacao and whale oil.

    I think it would be a good idea to implement a large number of different resources. Right now, the game can become repetitive when you have a colony producing each kind of good, and there is little incentive to found new colonies except possibly for gun production, as more of the same good will only decrease its value in Europe.

    If there are more different kinds, every one of them individually will be harder to obtain.

    - This provides an incentive to found new colonies later in the game.
    - It keeps the price of certain products high in Europe, so that trading with the homeland will remain profitable throughout the game.
    - It also encourages you to seek out fellow Europeans who produce the good you lack, and lack the good you produce.

    Another idea is creating different kinds of food, possibly cereals, meat and seafood. It doesn't matter much, of course, but I always feel a little silly when breeding horses by feeding them fish.

    Possible ideas for new resources:

    - chocolate, made from cacao
    - indigo, to turn into dye
    - spice
    - gems
    - jewelry, made from gold, silver and gems (Aztec goldsmiths created many beautiful things)
    - coffee
    - rubber
    - cocaine

    Religious wars

    These could be randomly generated events, that create a great influx of colonists of one religion.

    Religious parents

    I like this idea. I think the Prussians could have Martin Luther, and the Dutch John Calvin, though of course, these are persons, not functions.

    Also, the happiness of a colonist of a certain religion can maybe be linked to your relation with that colonists's religious parent.


    I have no idea whether my ideas are useful, realistic, simple or complex, to be honest.:shifty: Don't feel obliged to address every one of them, I just hope some of them can be useful. The ideas so far are awesome!

    Cheers
     
  2. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Thank you. :)
    (By the way, I really like people that give positive feedback about my features and ideas. :lol:)

    Absolutely. :thumbsup:
    It simply felt very strang that every unit could walk over the highest peaks like they were nothing ...

    Now you either need the experience, the training or the equipment or somebody already build roads (or railiroads) through that mountains.
     
  3. Gomer_Pyle

    Gomer_Pyle Prince

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    But then you should class Denmark and Sweden as minor nations and maybe limit them in some way? Look to Empire Total War where u have minor and major nations?


    Another thing I have been thinking about is lots of these features depends on eachother I understand. But lets say you group those that depend on eachother into selectable options in game option? An example: "No Future Era" in Civilization 4 "A New Dawn" mod which changes lots of different things and removes an entire era of gameplay. Would be handy if people wanna play your great mod and maybe dont have good enough pc to run it. Even now it takes some time to load "TAC mod" when first starting your game, and this mod isnt getting smaller?
     
  4. melcher kürzer

    melcher kürzer Explorer

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    The art isn't compressed into an .fpk file yet. TAC should load a lot faster in the final version.
     
  5. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    We will need to decide first which new nations we will add at all.
    There is no decision made to this point. :)

    Definitely yes and no. :)

    With small features it is possible to have them as game option.
    With large features and especially interdependent features it is basically often too much work.

    The team will listen to your feedback and decide in each case ! :thumbsup:
    (There is no general "We will always do ...".)

    If we (the team) all really like a feature, then there is very little reason for us to implement it as game option.
    (It is extra work ! Our work force is very limited.)

    As melcher said, this is mostly related to the amount of graphics and not to the amount of features activated. :)
     
  6. colonialfan

    colonialfan Warlord

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  7. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Hm, maybe this idea of "Minor Civs" could be interesting. :)
    (You guys convinced me. :goodjob:)

    Suggestion:

    A) Minor Civs can only found max 2 colonies in the whole game. Otherwise they work like normal Civs.
    B) Minor Civs cannot be played by human players.
    C) Minor Civs cannot declare independence. -> We will not need to implement a full parent. (no Leaderhead graphics for parent needed then.)
    D) Minor Civs will at some point of the game cede all their possesions to the closest dominant European major Civ.
    (If they are not destroyed before. Destroying of European Civs for good is possible in TAC.)

    I would like to have 3 minor civs:
    Denmark, Sweden, Russia

    Any other ideas about minor civs ?
     
  8. Gomer_Pyle

    Gomer_Pyle Prince

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    I like your suggestions Ray. But maybe 3 max colonies? Normally big nations will have lots of colonies right? Atleast it seems like the ai in TAC is nuts and building unlimited numbers of colonies.

    I would say minors should be Denmark, Sweden and Prussia? (Not Russia?) As I simply cant get around giving Prussia major role. Hmm.

    I think the minors should be playable but maybe other victory conditions? Maybe have events that will decide what happens to the minors? Different outcome every game?

    Brainstorming is cool ey? hehe
     
  9. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    That could be implemented as setting in GlobalDefines_Alt.xml.

    Yes in TAC AI tries to build more colonies than in Vanilla. :)

    Maybe both Prussia and Russia as minor civs ...

    Please let us keep the Feature "Minor Civs" simple if we introduce it. :)
    (Minor Civs not playable and no victory conditions.)

    Our workforce is very very limited right now. ;)
    We are only 2 Programmers and we have many many more ideas that are much more important to us !

    Yes it is. :)
     
  10. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Thank you agnat86. :)

    We are just starting the discussions and brainstorming.
    It will take some time till we have presented all ideas and also implemented features we already have. ;)

    Try TAC, I bet you will love it ! :)

    I'm not sure about the benefits of that. :dunno:

    Things like that are already implemented in TAC. ;)

    I'm not sure about the benefits of that either. :dunno:

    I have planned and already implemented features to change that. ;)
    (Like "Bargaining with Natives".)

    What is the benefit ? :dunno:
    When destroying native villages you get "Converted Natives".
    It would only be work considering graphics for a new unit ...


    I do not think that is useful either.
    That village would only waste space and by destroying villages you get treasures.

    That is possible by Diplomacy. ;)

    Please take a look at TAC, things are very different there. ;)

    Problem is that every new nation we include would need UnitArtStyles.
    (Civ-specific unit graphics.)

    I would love to integrate more native civs but we would need somebody helping us with the unit graphics. :(

    I have a really large concept called "Barbarian Civs for CivCol".
    It would introduce that aspect too. :thumbsup:

    Again, please check TAC.
    Things are very different there. Meaning a lot better !
    (We do not start from vanilla.)


    I have already implemented that feature.
    It is called "European Peace".
    (@Robert: It is part of my Preview-Release.)

    Features exist. ;)

    No sorry. Players would kill me for that feature. :lol:

    Is this enough for you ? :lol:



    Don't know ...

    Good ideas. :goodjob:

    That is another concept of mine. ;)


    Thank you for your input ! :goodjob:
     
  11. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    For clarification:

    We are not starting from Vanilla.

    Our mod will be based on TAC.

    Also Robert and I have already created many features and a lot more concepts.
    We simply need to show, explain and most important agree on what we like and don't like. :)

    @Robert:

    I will wait explaining and discussing more new stuff until we have thoroughly worked up and
    decided about the currently discussed ideas and features.
     
  12. Gomer_Pyle

    Gomer_Pyle Prince

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    I am not the biggest fan of adding too many europeans, but this idea sounds ok.

    You are probably right. Atleast keep it simple for now. :crazyeye:
     
  13. Robert Surcouf

    Robert Surcouf Civ4Col Modder

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    Well well well !
    You really have good ideas.

    I like many of your suggestions.
    Yes thank you agnat86 ! I like your ideas, and I agree with what Ray answered !

    RenaissanceFan could you tell us more about your food growth feature ?
    I agree with Ray, I might be extremely difficult to program one tax mechanism per nation. Actually, if we were playing a board game, your idea would be simply great. But I like your basic idea though.

    I am testing your preview right now. Again, I really like it!
    I vote: yes, yes and yes ! I have a few questions about your preview though (I'll send you a private message, I wouldn't want to bore everyone with technical details !)

    Finally, I let all of you decide about the major/minor nations. It seems a good idea, but it is not my favorite.


    Off Topic
    Ich verstehe nichts !
     
  14. Robert Surcouf

    Robert Surcouf Civ4Col Modder

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    Oh yes, I forgot,

    Yes I like you new missioning system !

    I forgot to say, but my no variables hidden isn't only about attitudes.
    I also tried it on the Europe Screen. I added an "Expeditionnary Force bar" similar to the "Immigration bar", and infos on Tax Rate...


    In this game, you can "safely" sell 3000 goods before the King does anything. If you sell more than 3000 goods, the King might raise taxes.( I've changed vanilla Civ4Col's tax threshold, and this is Pilgrim handicap).

    Thanks to my no more variables hidden, you can easily understand why many players complain about vanilla Civ4Col... It's is really unbalanced or even bugged.
    Here's what I saw in one of my games. I chose Adrian Van Der Donck (Dutch leader), handicap: Revolutionary (the hardest), and asked "my" King for some help (thanks to the WordlBuilder I had enough gold and the King became quite friendly with a +15 extra attitude...).
    Here is the result !


    1150 bells stored! The king will probably add between 30 and 35 new units in his REF ! It seems a lot for one unit he granted me don't you think ?
    And Adrian Van Der Donck tax Threshold is equal to 1000. The problem is all the other leaders get a 1000 threshold (Revolutionary handicap)! He should actually have a higher threshold than the others since he has the Charismatic trait.

    I also would like to add a new mission screen. It would show every Christian mission we have founded. It would show us the related native city, show the cities name, owner, etc... and even missionary rate bonuses, and maybe even how many turns you have to wait to get a converted native (this last feature would be optional but the whole screen needn't be optional... well I think)
     
  15. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    .fpk is an archive type for graphics often used also for civcol-mods
    By using compression it is possible to achieve higher performance.
    It is not very complicated. :thumbsup:

    I think it is a good idea to later on use it when we put together our releases too.
    (I will explain you then in detail if you want.)
     
  16. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Thank you.
    I told many times it is only a Preview. :)
    (It is only to show my ideas. I know that a lot of things need to improve and I am willing to do so. :thumbsup:)

    I hoped you would !
    (I really like most of the features in there and would be very happy if you agree to integrate them in "Religion and Revolution". :) )

    Fantastic ! :)

    No problem, but I was going to explain my features here in details in the next days. :)


    It is not my favorite either but it is worth a second thought. :)

    I suggest we keep it in mind and might consider implementation after our important features are implemented and fully integrated. :thumbsup:
     
  17. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I thought there would be more. :)

    Yes ok.
    (As I said, as long at it is a game option that feature is fine.)

    I do not feel that this screen is necessary.
    But if you want to do it, go ahead. :thumbsup:
     
  18. agnat86

    agnat86 Warlord

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    I tried TAC today. It's awesome! It really makes a difference when I don't have to make up all the storyline myself. Additionally, most of the things I missed in vanilla have been implemented. Great!:goodjob:

    A question about the screenshot with the resources... is there a list anywhere what they are? The sheer number alone is awesome!:crazyeye:
     
  19. Robert Surcouf

    Robert Surcouf Civ4Col Modder

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    Hi everyone,
    I've been looking for that too ! I don't thing you can find the resource list in the Civilopedia....

    I actually can't think of a Col94 feature that hasn't been added to TAC. Yet ,I'm trying :scan:

    Ray, I was kidding!
     
  20. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Hi Robert, I will explain today. :)
    (As I said, I have many many things to explain. :lol:)

    There are many new concepts / features involved !

    * Rare Yields only on Bonusses
    * Luxury Goods From Europe
    * Multiple Professions per building
    * Multiple Yields Consumed / Produced
    * Inland Sales + Different Social Status of Colonists
    * Satisfaction
    * Injuries and Diseases
    * Materials needed to build Buildings, Ships, Cannons, ...
    ...

    Actually it should be in there. :)

    There are a few but I started creating them in my Preview. ;)

    Examples:
    - Bargaining with Natives (implemented in Preview)
    - Uprising Natives with Missionaries (only as concept)
    ...

    Sorry, I did not understand you were kidding. :blush:
     
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