[Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

[KJ Jansson]

Currently in TAC (and Vanilla) the Spawn Position of Royal Fleet at War of Independence is very predictable.
Thus it is relatively easy to destroy huge parts of the Royal Fleet, before it can land the troops.

I never played the game (both vanilla or any mods) during WOI because this aspect is not interesting for me. Thus, I could be wrong.

If I understand correctly the problem, the Royal Fleet during WOI appears in very predictable tile (or tiles?) and you plan to change it.

One of variants is

-> Variance between North / South but even East / West
(Europe Travel Fields only of course)

Well, if you like to implement by such way, please, do it. I have nothing again.

However, I'd like to mention that the geographical position of two points (Europe as a starting point of King Fleet, and your colony in New World as a final point or a "target" of the Fleet) are the same all the time during the game. Thus, the Royal Fleet during WOI should appear all the time practically in the same region (+/- 5-20 tiles from some middle (X,Y) entrance point depending on map size). Sorry, but I cannot image how the Royal Fleet sent by your King from Europe in New World (let's say in Caribic region) can appear from North or South Poles, or from the West (I suppose from Pacific Ocean). It's nonsence, to my opinion.

Probably, I'm wrong because, I repeat, I never played during WOI and don't know all features realated to the King Fleet.

C) Implemented as Game Option.
(Activated by default.)

OK! It could be deactivated, if really "variance between North / South but even East / West" will be implemented.

another crazy idea:

Currently when deactivating Victory Condition "Independence" it is not possible to declare Independence anymore.

I would like to change that.

When deactivating Victory Condition "Independence" it is still possible to declare Indepencene and fight the War of Independence.

Game simply will not be won, when winning War of Independence.
AI would also still declare Independence but of course also not win the game with winning War of Independence.

Feedback ?

100% support from my side. I really like this idea.

 

[raystuttgart]

100% support from my side. I really like this idea.

I really think "Changes to Victory Condition Independence" is a good idea.
It will allow playing with no time pressure and still fight WOI.

Since I haven't heard any rejections so far, I have put it on the list.

 

[raystuttgart]

About: Game Option "Variing Spawn Positions for Waves of Royal Fleet"

If I understand correctly the problem, the Royal Fleet during WOI appears in very predictable tile (or tiles?) and you plan to change it.

Yes, exactly.

However, I'd like to mention that the geographical position of two points (Europe as a starting point of King Fleet, and your colony in New World as a final point or a "target" of the Fleet) are the same all the time during the game. Thus, the Royal Fleet during WOI should appear all the time practically in the same region (+/- 5-20 tiles from some middle (X,Y) entrance point depending on map size). Sorry, but I cannot image how the Royal Fleet sent by your King from Europe in New World (let's say in Caribic region) can appear from North or South Poles, or from the West (I suppose from Pacific Ocean). It's nonsence, to my opinion.

Probably, I'm wrong because, I repeat, I never played during WOI and don't know all features realated to the King Fleet.

As I said, I would like to implement this by using a "Variance formula" (Gauss-Curve).

The further away a Europe-Travel-Plot from any of your cities, the less likely it is as arrival point of a wave.

If you have cities all over the map, then the Royal Fleet could spawn all over the map, too.
(Currently it would usually only be the closest Europe Travel plot to your very first city, which is extremely predictable. )

If you have cities centered in one area, then Royal Fleet will only spawn close to that area.

My solution will not be chaotic.
(It will simply be less predictable, since "Europe Travel Plots" near all of your cities will become become probable arriving points for waves of Royal Fleet.)

Why should Royal Fleet always arrive near your Capitol (very first city) ?
(Actually it might also be the Europe Travel Point, where you first arrived. I would need to check in sources. But the result is the same, it is extremely predictable.)

-----------------------

I think I need to explain with an example.
(This probably is complicated to understand otherwise.)

Imagine the following:

You have arrived in the center of the map and founded your colony 1 there.
Later on you found colony 2 in the north and colony 3 in the south.

Currently:
Waves of Royal Fleet will always arrive in the Center.
-> Very predictable and easy to defend.

With my concept:
Waves of Royal Fleet could arrive near colony 1 (in center) or colony 2 (north) or colony 3 (south).
-> Much harder to predict and much harder to defend.

Probability of "Arrival Point" is related to distance to any of your colonies.
(Using a "Variance Formula".)

Maybe this picture does explain a little better.
(It is ugly I know, but it should explain "Probabilities of plots to be chosen as arrival location for waves of Royal Fleet before King has captured a city".)

Spoiler :

 

[colonialfan]

Improving War Of Independence Concepts.)

Summary:

The feature will calculate every round during War of Independence.
If your cities have higher revolutionary rate than X, they are save from this feature.
If your cities have many troops stationed (compared to citizens), the chances of turning over are lower (actually they are 0 with enought troops stationed).
If your king is capturing cities, the chances of further cities turning over to him, will increase.
By destroying your troops stationed in a city, the King will increase chances of that city turning over.
There is also a chance, that some of your troops (not in city and not stacked) will turn over to the King

Expected Result:
War of Independence will get more challenging.

Love it, love it, love it. As you can guess, I would really, really, like a feature where colonies can still remain loyal to the king to be part of the game, I think it would add another dimension.

Just curious about one thing. Would you still have to drive the king out of all colonies to win independence and the game? Or would you only have to defend and preserve freedom from the crown for those colonies that originally declared independence with you?

Personally I'd prefer to just fight for those colonies that originally declared independence with you, rather than getting bogged down in a war of attrition for every single colony, loyal to you or otherwise.

 

[raystuttgart]

Love it, love it, love it.

Actually it is a variant of one of my older concepts and I did not present it until now, because I thought that people would not like it anyways.

As you can guess, I would really, really, like a feature where colonies can still remain loyal to the king to be part of the game, I think it would add another dimension.

I would like to have that, too.
I really believe that War of Independence should be more interesting and more fun, than it is currently.

Just curious about one thing. Would you still have to drive the king out of all colonies to win independence and the game? Or would you only have to defend and preserve freedom from the crown for those colonies that originally declared independence with you?

Personally I'd prefer to just fight for those colonies that originally declared independence with you, rather than getting bogged down in a war of attrition for every single colony, loyal to you or otherwise.

No, it would still be like now:
You need to beat all troops of the king.

Reasons:

A) Multiplayer -> Your idea would create heavy inbalance there.
B) Efforts -> Your idea would be relatively difficult to implement.
C) Fun -> I wouldn't like to play your variant, sorry.

 

[Robert Surcouf]

Hi everyone,

I really like both aspects:
Game Option "Varying Spawn Positions for Waves of Royal Fleet"
and
Improving War Of Independence Concepts.

And I guess it is easier to continue until we've defeated all King's troops. I understand Colonialfan why you would want to have some loyalist colonies (like Canada). Why not?
But I don't see how you could implement that easily.
Because:
1) Players would lose control of a part of their colonies
2) Players could even try to cheat. I mean, you could only keep your best colonies and purposely abandon small colonies, or undefendable colonies and still win. It could really ruin the game...

However... This may not be related at all, but in Civilization IV (Bts), you can free a few of your cities which are separated from your capital city, and it creates a new civilization (the new leader has a significant bonus towards you). Maybe something like that could be possible, but I'm really not sure.
And of course this would have to happen before war of independence...

 

[raystuttgart]

I really like both aspects:
Game Option "Varying Spawn Positions for Waves of Royal Fleet"
and
Improving War Of Independence Concepts.

Game Option "Varying Spawn Positions for Waves of Royal Fleet" and
Game Option "Loyalty to the King"
are Part A and Part B of a much larger concept Improving War Of Independence.

Actually Improving War Of Independence would probably be more like a topic of a complete Release.
(Just like "Economy" or "Religions" or ...)

Another part of that concept "Configurable Waves of Royal Fleet" is already in work at TAC.
(So we will have it after the merge with TAC 2.03.)

Also at TAC a new concept might be in work, that makes Game Option "Varying Spawn Positions for Waves of Royal Fleet" outdated / useless.
(Still need to talk with koma about details of that.)

But there are more parts to Improving War Of Independence.
(I will introduce over time. Otherwise discussions would probably get too chaotic.)

And I guess it is easier to continue until we've defeated all King's troops.

Yes.

Also I really don't want to have anything else there, because it would destroy game fun for me personally.
No "Only defend the colonies that stayed with you" please.
No "New Split-off Civ" please.

 

[colonialfan]

I understand Colonialfan why you would want to have some loyalist colonies (like Canada). Why not?
But I don't see how you could implement that easily.
Because:
1) Players would lose control of a part of their colonies
2) Players could even try to cheat. I mean, you could only keep your best colonies and purposely abandon small colonies, or undefendable colonies and still win. It could really ruin the game...

Hi guys,

You make a fair point about players potentially cheating, and how it could ruin the game. Ideally I would have liked to of had a situation where the king kept Canada and the colonies in the Caribbean, but I appreciate the difficulties it would present in terms of balancing and implementation, so I agree with keeping the feature as initially suggested.

 

[agaro]

I really think "Changes to Victory Condition Independence" is a good idea.
It will allow playing with no time pressure and still fight WOI.

Since I haven't heard any rejections so far, I have put it on the list.

Yes, I support this.

While we are looking at victory conditions can we make it clearer how to achieve some of the "victories". For example TAC gives you the option of playing for an industrialization victory - but it doesn't tell you what the trigger is, i.e. is it a certain level of gold, or a certain amount of export cargo sent to europe, or a certain number of hammers per turn, or whatever?

 

[agaro]

# Position of waves of Royal Fleet:
It makes sense for the first wave to arrive outside your main export city. Usually this is also your first settlement and the closest settlement to Europe. Even if the REF didn't take this city first it would certainly blockade it to shut down rebel exports and coastal trading (and to test the strength of the rebel navy). Then subsequent waves could be a bit more random.

# Cities switching allegiance
I also like this concept. But can we extend it to all Wars between European colonies as well. Rebel sentiment could equate to nationalistic sentiment and so you could use basically the same algorithm. I've seen many situations where the sensible thing for a weak city to do would be to flip/surrender rather than fight.

 

[raystuttgart]

# Cities switching allegiance
I also like this concept. But can we extend it to all Wars between European colonies as well. Rebel sentiment could equate to nationalistic sentiment and so you could use basically the same algorithm. I've seen many situations where the sensible thing for a weak city to do would be to flip/surrender rather than fight.

There already exists (an accepted) concept about European Colonies switching sides.
(It is part of our new concept for Culture.)

 

[Nixeh]

Where is it in the xml files that allows you to enable ships to be able to 'speak to chief'?

 

[raystuttgart]

Where is it in the xml files that allows you to enable ships to be able to 'speak to chief'?

Actually that is something we would probably do in DLL.
(Programming, not configuration.)

 

[Robert Surcouf]

Unfortunately Nixeh ... nowhere!
canSpeakWithChief function is a C++ function. You can find it in CvUnit.cpp

Spoiler :

bool CvUnit::canSpeakWithChief(CvPlot* pPlot) const
{
    ProfessionTypes eProfession = getProfession();
    [B]if (eProfession == NO_PROFESSION)
    {
        return false;
    }[/B]

    if (pPlot != NULL)
    {
        CvCity* pCity = pPlot->getPlotCity();
        if (pCity == NULL)
        {
            return false;
        }

        if (!pCity->isNative())
        {
            return false;
        }

        if (pCity->isScoutVisited(getTeam()))
        {
            return false;
        }
    }

    if (isNative())
    {
        return false;
    }

    if (!canMove())
    {
        return false;
    }

    return true;
}

Of course you can remove first condition (preventing units with no profession to speak with chief) but that would allow treasures to be able to speak with chief !

 

[KJ Jansson]

I found a lot of interesting ideas concerning Trading and Boundaries, Productivity and readiness for Revolution from Commander Bello on the German forum.

Especially interesting

Grenzen:

• Grenzen dehnen sich nicht mehr aufgrund der Freiheitsglocken aus, sonderrn aufgrund
  • der Einwohnerzahl der Siedlung und der dort stationierten Militäreinheiten
    • der Grenzverlauf zeigt an, in welchem Gebiet eigene Bevölkerung siedelt
    • Grenzen verschieben sich nicht, weil irgendwo irgendwer im Salon revolutionäre Reden schwingt, sondern
      • weil die Bevölkerung zunimmt und mehr Gebiet in Anspruch nimmt
      • die Kolonie in der Lage ist, militärische Kontrolle über dieses Gebiet auszuüben

and

Verwaltung / Produktivität:

• die Produktivität steigt in Zukunft nicht mehr aufgrund der Freiheitsglocken, sondern aufgrund
  • eines neuen Yields "Verwaltung"
    • dieses wird in den bisherigen Verwaltungsgebäuden (Stadthalle, etc.) "produziert"
    • dafür gibt es ein neues Symbol "Gesetzesbuch"
    • dafür gibt eine neue Spezialisteneinheit "Beamter", der in Europa angeworben (gekauft) werden kann
    • die Grafik dafür könnte die eines umgefärbten Staatsmannes sein
• der Einsatz von Beamten erfolgt analog zum Einsatz der bisherigen Staatsmänner
  • insgesamt führt der Einsatz von Beamten zu einer Produktivitätssteigerung von maximal 50%
    • bessere Verwaltung führt zu effizienterem Wirtschaften
• je besser die Verwaltung, desto höher die Neigung des Königs,Steuenr zu erhöhen (s. Handel)

I like very much the idea of Beamter. Commander Bello is absolutely right:

Allerdings arbeiten die Beamten bis zur Revolution im Auftrag des Königs.

His ideas about "Revolutionsbereitschaft" are also very promising.

I very recommend to read these two posts on the German forum.

 

[raystuttgart]

I very recommend to read these two posts on the German forum.

I did read, right away when these ideas were posted.

1. The part about "Cultural Influence / Borders":

A very similar concept is already planned.
(see concept Culture)

Biggest Difference in C.B.'s concept:
In his concept Military produces "Influence". (I don't like that idea ...)

2. Two different Yields for "Revolutionary Rate / Productivity"

This is very similar to an old concept of mine.
(see here, Different Professions for Statesmen, Sorry it is German)

In that concept Statesmen would basically have 3 different professions:

1. Focus Administration -> Improve Production
2. Focus Revolution -> Increase Revolutionary Rate.
3. Focus Diplomacy -> Improve Relations to other Players

I haven't presented all of my concepts yet.

3. About "Prices for goods"

I don't like his ideas here at all.
It is simply too complicated and would generate heavy balancing problems.

------------------------------

Summary:

1. For "Cultural Influence" I would really prefer our concepts for Culture, which is already planned.
Of course, we could modify / improve that concept.

Culture for example fits much better into our big context of Satisfaction.

2. For "Splitting up Bells into Revolutionary and Administrative", yes we could of course talk about it.
If this generally sounds interesting, I could present my newest concept here.

But I can warn you right away, because this involves heavy coding for creating good AI.

Also, this concept is conflicting with "Satisfaction" but these conflicts might be resolved.
(Satisfaction is meant to determine "Productivity".)

3. About "Prices in Europe", yes we could of course talk about it.

But please let us not generate a "realistic" system that simply is an awful lot of work, unbalanced between Nations and no fun at all to play.

General Remarks:

Even though some things might sound interesting, please keep in mind that AI is incredibly stupid.
Something that a human player understands easily might be almost impossible to teach to AI.

 

[KJ Jansson]

1. The part about "Cultural Influence / Borders":

A very similar concept is already planned.
(see concept Culture)

Biggest Difference in C.B.'s concept:
In his concept Military produces "Influence". (I don't like that idea ...)

Of course, Military produces "Influence" concept is not so good for your variant of "Cultural Influence".

However, I prever to see "Influence" as a more general parameter that included all aspects: City population, Religion, Culture, Trading importance, Military power.

2. Two different Yields for "Revolutionary Rate / Productivity"

This is very similar to an old concept of mine.
(see here, Different Professions for Statesmen, Sorry it is German)

In that concept Statesmen would basically have 3 different professions:

1. Focus Administration -> Improve Production
2. Focus Revolution -> Increase Revolutionary Rate.
3. Focus Diplomacy -> Improve Relations to other Players

I haven't presented all of my concepts yet.

Your concept of Two different Yields for "Revolutionary Rate / Productivity" is too complicate and as result to difficult for AI.

However, the variant of Commander Bello is much more simple for the implementation. Look:

1. Instead of YIELD_BELLS you produces in VILLAGEHALL (CITYHALL, etc.) a new "YIELD_Verwaltung" (or maybe better YIELD_"ORDNUNG" or YIELD_ORGANIZATION) that affect only on the city productivity.

2. In parallel you create a new class of buildings (for instance, Philosophenstube, Salon, Konvent) that will produce YIELD_BELLS.

Very simple and easy for AI.

Moveover, this concept is much more logically correct.

The King send his Official (Beamte) to organize the life in his New World colony. Please, read article about Viceroys.
This viceroy represents his King in a new colony and cannot produce any Liberty Bells. This is absolutely clear.

However, when the city became a big enough (let's, if the city population > 5), Human/AI player could build some new buildings (Philosophenstube, Salon, Konvent). Exactly these buildings will generate Liberty bells and create the possibility for the Revolution.

Much-much better than we have now.....

 

[raystuttgart]

Of course, Military produces "Influence" concept is not so good for your variant of "Cultural Influence".

Actually something like "Military Presence" as factor for "Influence" is:

A) Problematic because Miliary Presence can shift very often.
B) Extremely difficult to teach AI (It might even conflict with current AI-Strategies)

However, I prever to see "Influence" as a more general parameter that included all aspects: City population, Religion, Culture, Trading importance, ...

Please reread the concept for Culture.
Factors like City Population, Religion, Trading, ... are all considered in there.

If you want any additions or changes there ...

Your concept of Two different Yields for "Revolutionary Rate / Productivity" is too complicate and as result to difficult for AI.

Yes it is difficult.

But actually the concept I had linked is only a raw concept, the basic idea ...

Technical details were pretty much left open.
I never said a word about "Having different Buildings or Yields" or not.

So how do you know if it is difficult or not, if I did not talk about details of implementation ?
(I had created a techical concept for that later on, too.)

But once more, this concept is currently conflicting with Satisfaction.
Satisfaction is supposed to determine production bonusses.

If you want me to, I can create a new concept that harmonizes Religion, Culture, Influence, Administration, Bells, Health, Satisfaction ...

 

[KJ Jansson]

Actually something like "Military Presence" as factor for "Influence" is:

A) Problematic because Miliary Presence can shift very often.
B) Extremely difficult to teach AI (It might even conflict with current AI-Strategies)

Please reread the concept for Culture.
Factors like City Population, Religion, Trading, ... are all considered in there.

OK, we are talking practically about the same. You called it as "Culture", I called as "Influence". Let's exclude the "Military influence" from the consideration. All other parts (city population, Culture and Religion from buildings, Trading influence from Market, etc.) are more important.

To be very nice to listen critical remarks from the team concerning the concept

1. VILLAGEHALL (CITYHALL, etc.) produces YIELD_ADMINISTRATION (instead of YIELD_BELLS) that affect only on the city productivity.

2. A new class of buildings (for instance, Philosophenstube, Salon, Konvent) will produce YIELD_BELLS.

If you are interesting, please, explain your pro/contra positions with more serious argumentation than "I like"/"I don't like".

If you want me to, I can create a new concept that harmonizes Religion, Culture, Influence, Administration, Bells, Health, Satisfaction ...

Of course, it would be interesting to see such new global concept. However, now it's look unreal because Culture, Influence, Administration, Health, and Satisfaction are absent at all.

Maybe better to go "step-by-step" and implement/improve/fix/balance new ideas one after another? Of course, taking into account the possible development of new concepts as Satisfaction, etc.

 

[raystuttgart]

Of course, it would be interesting to see such new global concept.

Ok, give me some time to write something, where you can see the global context.
Discussions might be easier and more structured then.

However, now it's look unreal because Culture, Influence, Administration, Health, and Satisfaction are absent at all.

Exactly.
We are very very far away from these things ...
(With "very very far" I mean something like 2 years. I am not kidding ...)

Initial plan after Release 1 was:

Release 2 -> Focus on Economy
Release 3 -> Focus on Religions

Everything beyond that is covered in a fog of uncertainty ...

Maybe better to go "step-by-step" and implement/improve/fix/balance new ideas one after another? Of course, taking into account the possible development of new concepts as Satisfaction, etc.

That is what we are doing.