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[Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Religion and Revolution' started by Robert Surcouf, Sep 5, 2011.

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  1. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    I understand about the "beaming" and how its overly simply but does TAC allow such Diplomacy deals as, "I'll give you 5 tobacco a turn for 5 ore" or "5 tobacco for 50 gold a turn"? I have TAC but I haven't played through a full game with it. When it comes to Diplomacy I like to have lots of options. Yeah, a player can send out a wagon to the target Foreign Colony manually but after your empire gets huge thats just extra macro management you have to deal with, plus that bypasses any benefits to Diplomatic deals.

    If you like seeing wagons moving about then maybe this idea... A player takes a wagon to a Rival Colony and asks to make a deal, if the Rival accepts, that wagon is assigned to complete the deal and works similar to Trade Routes in your own colony. It will move to the Rival Colony buy the goods and then return them home again. This wouldn't be a simple addition by no means but it would add a little "life" to the game.

    When you guys discussed Forts did anyone mention Zone of Control? Like an Enemy unit can not move around a Forts position until all units inside the Fort are destroyed. That would be one viable use for a Fort on the map. This Zone of Control could actually be added to the Fort building, the upgrade from a stockade. Then a player who wanted to create a defensive position would need to use a Colonist to found a colony then quickly build a Fort.
     
  2. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    It is just my personal opinion.

    No, it does not. :)

    Have you ever thought about what will happen if the player you have that roundwise deal with does not have the ressources that round. :confused:
    (There could be many many reasons for this to happen.)

    Ressources / goods in CivCol work too different compared to Civ4 to adapt every concept.

    I really think that deals like "I give you x every round and you give me y every round" will simply not work properly in CivCol.
    There are too many variances in production of goods. :dunno:

    And again, I can do the same by moving my wagon trains or ships around to different other cities or villages and trade for the things I want or sell my stuff.
    (For me, that is more fun than having some completely invisible trade deal. I like micro management.)

    Yes, we have talked shortly about it.
    It is a nice idea but not interesting enought for me that I myself will ever put any work in it.
    (Of course every modder is free to do and integrate whatever he likes. :) )
    Again something I believe that AI will not use very wisely and also does not seem to bring many benefits.

    I have discussed about "Forts", "Trade Contracts" or "Trade Routes defined by Roads" with several others.

    The benefits of these concepts are absolutely minimal for me.
    If I then take a look at effort and risks (bugs, AI-Problems) ...

    Maybe in the future there will be interesting concepts and ideas arising from those implementations. :)
    (Currently I am really not interested in that, sorry.)

    If you or any other modder should do features like that, I would definitely take a look and maybe reconsider these aspects. :thumbsup:
    (And once more, you did a great job in a technical sense with these features.)

    Let us see, what Robert says about these ideas.
    (Maybe he really likes them ... :dunno:)
     
  3. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Yes, I have. It would be the same as in Civ4 where the deal just gets canceled as in Civ4 there was always that chance you could lose the resource. But yeah, you would have work out all the intricacies of it of course. What I like about the idea is the AI side of it. Yes, we can send our wagons and ships around to trade with other Nations but the AI can't. So, my idea is the AI would contact the player and ask for a deal, if the player accepts the AI would send its wagon to start picking up the goods. All the player has to do is make sure he keeps enough of the goods in stock to satisfy the deal. It would only last say, 20 turns, like in Civ4 and then would have to be renewed. This would bring more "life" to the game.

    I'm not asking for you specifically to add in such features I am just tossing around ideas. I could program something like this myself as I would like to see some kind of feature as this in my own mods.

    Because of the default victory conditions you never even have to contact the other Nations and just build up your own colonies. I would like to see more diplomacy in the game and reasons for such diplomacy. Like if you have developed really good trade relations with the French and your mother country has declared war on you the French my decide to send an intervening force to help protect their trade investments. Something like this may already be in TAC where other countries will intervene on your behalf but its just an example.
     
  4. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    I just wanted to mention that point.

    Yes but chances in CivCol for that would be much higher than in Civ4.

    Yes, programming AI to handle such a feature without "beaming" would be very tricky.
    (And as I said, I do not like "beaming".)

    Yes, a little.

    I understood that. :)
    I just wanted to say "Currently there exists no feature, that would do that in a way I like it." and "I am probably not going to invest time in programming it myself."

    Currently the discussions here focus about what we ("Religion and Revolution"-team) will do or integrate in this project.

    Also, this is just my personal opinion.

    I do not make decisions about creation or integration of features alone.
    If the rest of the team (which is currently only Robert :) ) really likes these ideas, we will talk about it again.

    Great. I am looking forward to see more of your work. :goodjob:

    Me too. :)
    I have developed a lot of ideas and also already implemented some stuff to enhance diplomacy.
    (Especially also with your own king.)

    I have focussed so far on special Diplomacy-Dialog-Events.
    ("European Wars", "Native Mercenaries" during my time at TAC.
    "European Peace", "European Prisons Crowded" in my private project RWL.
    Some others I only have concepts for right now.)

    It does. :)
    It is another DLL-Event I programmed with TAC.
     
  5. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    So ok, I think I might introduce a few more features. :)
    (Currently I try to slow down introduction of new featues / ideas to give time to discuss and agree.)


    As I already mentioned there already exist special DLL-Diplomacy-Events in TAC:

    European Wars -> King will tell you to start War with another European Nation
    Revolutionary Support -> Other Europeans (to be exact, their Kings) offer you troops when you declare Independence
    Native Mercenaries -> Natives sell Mercenaries

    I have already created 3 more:

    All of them can be balanced by XML.
    (Almost every aspect.)

    AI knows how to handle these.

    DLL-Diplomacy-Events with King

    Basic ideas:
    * More interaction with King
    * Positive Attitude of King gets more important

    1. European Peace (implemented and integrated)
    (@Robert: You can take a look in my Preview)

    King will ask you to stop a War with another European Nation

    Choices:
    * Disobey -> Attitude of King gets worse
    * Obey -> King will send Diplomats (Superspecialsists Bishop and Noble) which you can keep and Attitude towards King improves

    2. European Prisons Crowded
    (Not part of my Preview)

    A. Criminals cannot be gained by Immigration anymore

    B. King will offer to ship you some criminals for a low price because the prisons in Europe are crowded.

    Prices are influence by the Attitude of the King.
    (Cheaper if he likes you. But there is also a little random in it.)

    Number of Criminals:
    (There is a random. It is between 1 on 3 for each event in my current setting.)

    Choices:
    * Not buy.
    * Buy.

    3. King wants to get rid of "revolutionary Noble"
    (Not part of my Preview)

    There is a revolutionary Noble in the old world which causes a lot of trouble with his strange ideas of "All People should be equal."

    The king wants to get rid of this Noble and had the idea to send him to the new world.
    He discussed this with that Noble and the Noble will accept if you will give him a little wealth to start his new live in the New World.

    Choices:
    * Accept / Pay -> Attitude of King improves and you get "Revolutionary Noble" (Superspecialist Bells, Unit itself is part of my Preview)
    * Not accept -> Attitude of King gets a little worse.

    --------------------

    I have a few more ideas concerning DLL-Events with King that, but they are only ideas / concepts currently.
    (Like "Gifts to the King")

    Feedback ? :)
     
  6. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Another thing me and a few other modders had started working on a little some time ago. :)
    (Some graphics were collected and code was checked to find out about possible implementations and effort for that.)

    Growing Improvements

    Basic idea:
    Over time improvements grow.
    (There is a second level of that improvement.)

    Examples:
    Farm will turn to Large Farm after 30 rounds.
    Mine will turn to Large Mine after 40 rounds.
    Lodge will turn to Lumberjack-Camp after 25 rounds.
    ...

    Now we have discussed two basic concepts:

    A) The second level simply increases output a little more.
    B) The second level increases output a little more and will allow a second unit to work on that plot tile !

    I really like B)
    (Concept A) is really easy to do, once you have collected all necessary graphics.)

    What do you think, is B) too much ?
    Do you like that feature at all ?

    Feedback ? :)
     
  7. Gomer_Pyle

    Gomer_Pyle Prince

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    I think you need to double the time for upgrading farms, mines and lodges.

    Also another thing I miss is a system where petty criminals and servants cant be trained to be professional colonists with natives or schools. The should only be able to be soldiers really or less effective colonists. You could have a "time before becoming free colonist"? (200 turns maybe?) This was a really good system in Col94. I know atleast this system or similar system is implemented in "Further Age of Discovery". Also this information of how many turns they needs before becoming free men should be listed on the unit when you hoover the mouse over it. Same thing with education system (how many turns is left until its fully trained).

    Is this something you would like?
     
  8. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    The numbers are just examples.
    There are XML-Variables at the Improvements.

    I am currently not sure how this is implemented in TAC. :)
    (Maybe they just need a little more time to be trained.)

    Need to take a look.

    But generally I agree with that concerning criminals.

    I implemented something like that with TAC. ;) ---> Criminals or Servants can become free or run away.

    It works a little different though, there are randoms and chances in it !
    (There is no sense of displaying "how many more rounds till ...". It simply does not work like that.)
     
  9. Robert Surcouf

    Robert Surcouf Civ4Col Modder

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    Wow ! I'm quite slow. I'm ten messages late !

    About forts and trade routes....

    I must say Kailric and I seem to have one point in common. We really like Civilization! That"'s probably why the first mod I've worked on uses Kailric modcomp Inventor.

    So I agree with you Ray on many points. I don't like beaming either. In Civilization, you can't think of anything else, but in Colonization it seems awkward. I agree also, AI might be lost... And often it's easier to build a colony than a fort.

    But I agree with Kailric too. I really would like to see more options in Diplomacy... Compared to Cilivzation 4 (especially with Civ IV Beyond The Sword), Colonization's Diplomacy is dull (to be polite!)...
    Ray, have you seen Kailric's Inventor mod? There are a few more diplomatic options: Trading inventions, and research pacts, etc...

    I agree... This is one of Colonization greatest flaw, in my opinion...

    Practically, I suppose that it means we are not going to develop a new trade route system unless we find another way to do it (without beaming goods). So we must keep the idea in mind. I'm sure that you will impress us soon with something new, Kailric.
    As Darth Vador said:
    Sorry, I was off topic !

    About Forts:
    I really think Kailric is right. You might have forgotten two or three things in your discussion... (maybe I shouldn't say that... I haven't tried Kailric's forts, and I haven't read that discussion).
    So Ray, you don't like Zone of Control. I understand. I think you too are missing something Kailric !
    (to be continued... sorry I'm late for work !)
     
  10. Robert Surcouf

    Robert Surcouf Civ4Col Modder

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    In many ways, Col94 is better than vanilla Civ4Col. But is there something better in Civ4Col than in Col94? Yes, I really think so.
    Graphics are better than the original ones of course.

    But what else? Is there a major improvement in game-play, and if yes, what?
    If there is ONE thing I would keep it's what I call "plot mechanisms" (sorry I can't find a better English word).

    Let me explain ! In Col94 (and in original Civ, Civ 2 and Civ 3 !!!), my units were often stuck by AI units. And I often had to declare war to the AI simply to go somewhere.
    Think of a "canal" situation. You have in a row: one coast tile, one land tile and finally one ocean tile. (In real world, I would quote Panama in America , or Suez in Egypt). In Col94, you simply could put a unit in such a tile and block AI. That was quite stupid !

    Moreover, in a canal situation, you really want to ... create a canal! If you build a colony in Col94 to be able to cross from Atlantic ocean to Pacific ocean (or the other way around), you can. But your ships will automatically stop when they enter your colony. So it takes 2 turns at least to cross your newly created canal.

    Civ IV engine is much more efficient. You can cross a canal if you wish (in only one turn of course) and you can't block enemy units (or be blocked by them) UNLESS your at war (which is normal). [If someone wants to go further in that direction, of course the best idea would be the idea of a zone of control ]

    But what happens if you have this configuration (larger canal situation): one coast plot - TWO land tiles - one coast plot ? Well in vanilla Civ 4, or in vanilla Civ4Col the answer is:
    YOU DO NOTHING. THERE IS NOTHING TO DO !
    But, in Beyond the sword.... There is a solution. You can build a ... guess what ? A Fort !
    The point is a Fort acts as a city. I suppose your forts act as a city in your mod Kailric. Am I right.

    In Colonization, the tag "bActsAsCity" is already there. But here's what I see when I try to find an improvement acting as a city
    Code:
    Can't find the Text:
    <bActsAsCity>1</bActsAsCity>
    Here's BtS code by the way
    Spoiler :

    <Type>IMPROVEMENT_FORT</Type>
    <Description>TXT_KEY_IMPROVEMENT_FORT</Description>
    <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_IMPROVEMENT_FORT_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
    <ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_IMPROVEMENT_FORT</ArtDefineTag>
    <YieldChanges/>
    <bActsAsCity>1</bActsAsCity>
    <bHillsMakesValid>0</bHillsMakesValid>
    <bFreshWaterMakesValid>0</bFreshWaterMakesValid>
    <bRiverSideMakesValid>0</bRiverSideMakesValid>
    <bNoFreshWater>0</bNoFreshWater>
    <bRequiresFlatlands>0</bRequiresFlatlands>
    <bRequiresRiverSide>0</bRequiresRiverSide>
    <bRequiresIrrigation>0</bRequiresIrrigation>
    <bCarriesIrrigation>0</bCarriesIrrigation>
    <bRequiresFeature>0</bRequiresFeature>
    <bWater>0</bWater>
    <bGoody>0</bGoody>
    <bPermanent>0</bPermanent>
    <bUseLSystem>1</bUseLSystem>
    <iAdvancedStartCost>60</iAdvancedStartCost>
    <iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>0</iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>
    <iTilesPerGoody>0</iTilesPerGoody>
    <iGoodyRange>0</iGoodyRange>
    <iFeatureGrowth>0</iFeatureGrowth>
    <iUpgradeTime>0</iUpgradeTime>
    <iAirBombDefense>20</iAirBombDefense>
    <iDefenseModifier>25</iDefenseModifier>
    <iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
    <iPillageGold>0</iPillageGold>
    <bOutsideBorders>1</bOutsideBorders>
    <TerrainMakesValids>
    <TerrainMakesValid>
    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_GRASS</TerrainType>
    <bMakesValid>1</bMakesValid>
    </TerrainMakesValid>
    <TerrainMakesValid>
    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_PLAINS</TerrainType>
    <bMakesValid>1</bMakesValid>
    </TerrainMakesValid>
    <TerrainMakesValid>
    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_DESERT</TerrainType>
    <bMakesValid>1</bMakesValid>
    </TerrainMakesValid>
    <TerrainMakesValid>
    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_TUNDRA</TerrainType>
    <bMakesValid>1</bMakesValid>
    </TerrainMakesValid>
    <TerrainMakesValid>
    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_SNOW</TerrainType>
    <bMakesValid>1</bMakesValid>
    </TerrainMakesValid>
    </TerrainMakesValids>
    <FeatureMakesValids/>
    <ImprovementPillage/>
    <ImprovementUpgrade/>
    <TechYieldChanges/>
    <RouteYieldChanges/>
    <bGraphicalOnly>0</bGraphicalOnly>
    </ImprovementInfo>

    So, it could be interesting to add an improvement that acts as a city. But will it be often useful? I don't know. Should we add it? I don't know !!
    The problem is that in Civ 4, building a new city can ruin your economy, so building a fort instead of a city is quite useful. Although I've never built more than two forts in a Bts game ! (the problem is I would really like to be able to follow a rivver in-land, but the game doesn't work that way... Does this have anything to do with Civ4 PlotGroups you were talking about Kailric?)

    Maybe it would be better if I show you a few screenshots. Things would be a little easier !


    Oh! I almost forgot. Since Civ 3, there is another interesting plot mechanism: territories ! You can't build a colony anywhere anymore ... This is part of what I call "plot mechanisms"
     
  11. Maidhross

    Maidhross Chieftain

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    That sounds interesting. In the mod Dawn of a New Era, you could build taverns and supply them with Rum and that could draw criminals to your colonies.

    As for part B, I like that. Although if the King is annoyed with you he can send you some criminals to punish you.

    I like that. So that would be what a super elder statesman?

    If you obey would you get the same super elder statesman as above?
     
  12. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Me too. :)
    But I want to choose additions to this mod very wisely.

    There are many aspects to be considered:
    • Does it add fun or would it even destroy atmosphere ?
    • How much effort will it be and what is the risk of bugs ?
    • Will AI be able to handle ?
    • Do we really want it or is it just nice to have ?
    • Will players understand it?
      ...

    I really want to have quality in this mod and not only quantity. :)

    Also, only the features we have already decided to do will keep us busy for about a year, if we do not find a lot more modders to join the team ...
    (... we are working on this mod in our spare time. :) )

    Yes I have, but I guess, when we start discussing about inventions this will become an extremely long discussion. :)
    (I would like to clarify the smaller things first. It would probably be better to open a new separated thread.)


    I do not think we will touch the "Trade-Route-System" because this simply works fantastically in TAC.

    But maybe we will find some good ideas about trade contracts or other diplomacy in the future. :)

    Sure, I am just saying that currently there is no existing feature or concept about that, which I really like. :)

    But if we really want to start a long brainstorming about Forts, then maybe it would be better to open a separated thread.
     
  13. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    We will have taverns too in this mods. ;)
    (They will sell rum, wine and beer.)

    Of course you will make money by this.
    Also Satisfaction increases. (If we will agree on that concept I will explain later.)

    There could be many other effects, too.
    (We will think about it, once we have the tavern.)

    As for part B, I like that. Although if the King is annoyed with you he can send you some criminals to punish you.

    It is a new unit with own graphics, but basically yes. :)

    It is the same unit, yes.
     
  14. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    @Robert:

    Do you like these DLL-Diplo-Events with the King ?

    Should I design more like that ?
    (Of course also with Natives and other Europeans.)

    DLL-Diplo-Events are relatively easy for me to do.
     
  15. colonialfan

    colonialfan Warlord

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    You make sum good points for not pursuing the forts idea Ray. And as it seems that most players would rather just build another colony than a fort, why overload the few modders you have with creating a feature that would be superfluous to the overall gameplay. I was just thinking of how forts such as Ft. Ticonderoga, Ft, Niagra, Ft. William Henry, etc., guarded key areas and thoroughfares in North America. But like you suggest, the modding team should aim for quality of a few really good ideas rather than trying to over fill the game with numerous ideas and concepts which would probably just bog the gameplay down.
     
  16. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Yes, Forts acts like a city. I do however agree with Ray on the implantation of my Forts mod. At the moment its just not all that useful. I designed it for the Wild West mod and only released one testing version.

    In all actuality when you found a new "settlement" its intended use may be that exactly as a Fort was used in the Pioneer days. Say, if see a nice spot to gather Furs and you only want Furs for that settlement, you send out a colonist to found a settlement and then if at some point you build defenses to protect it you have essentially built a Fort :)

    So, in that sense Forts are already in the game. But here is an idea thats coming to mind. What if there was more than one type of settlement you could found. Say if you wanted to build a settlement just for producing Furs, so instead of sending out a colonist to found a colony you send one out to build a "Fur Trading Post". This Trading post would work similar to your normal colonies but you gain bonuses for producing Furs and Coats and can only build Production buildings related to such industries, defenses, and maybe some of the other buildings like a church. Then you have your Fort :)

    I have something similar in my Medieval mod where there are three types of settlements you can found, the normal settlement, a monastery, and a military outpost.

    And as far as Zone of Control the Fort building itself could act as a ZOC and there maybe a mod out there already where Fortresses will make strikes of opportunity against passing enemy units. There may already be a mod thats adds in ZOC too, will have to look but if there is then it could be play tested to see its effects. But the AI would need to be programed to understand what a ZOC is so that the player doesn't have a big advantage. Just some thoughts.

    @Ray
    I really like your Diplomacy options and the idea of Growing Improvements. One question though about the Crowded Prisons... if you can't get Criminals through immigration that would be a good thing right? I hate getting Criminals :cry: And why would you pay the king to ship you Criminals? Seems like the King would want to ship you some for free just to get rid of them.

    Unless of course Criminals are unique units that have some kind of extra benefit in TAC?
     
  17. Robert Surcouf

    Robert Surcouf Civ4Col Modder

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    Of course I like those ideas. I like them a lot even !
    But who would like to take this mad man with his strange ideas?
    ;)

    Another thing me and a few other modders had started working on a little some time ago.
    (Some graphics were collected and code was checked to find out about possible implementations and effort for that.)

    I like the idea... But I'd rather choose option A. Isn't B a little strange ?
     
  18. Gomer_Pyle

    Gomer_Pyle Prince

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    I agree with Robert. Go for option "A".
     
  19. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Great. :)
    Ok, then I will explain the other DLL-Diplo-Events I have concepts for in the near future.

    Of course I will also try to design new ones with Native or Europeans.
    (Thus also getting a little more Diplomacy and interaction.)

    Ok, then it is A). :)
    (It is a lot easier to do anyways.)

    It was just the idea that more people could work on a "Large Farm" then on a "Farm". :dunno:
    (Forget it. We go with A). :thumbsup:)
     
  20. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Great. :)

    Becaues the King is very greedy and wants to make money out of everything.
    (In the text he will explain that he does you a large favour. ;) )

    No, they are simply very cheap labour.
    (Similar to slaves.)

    But in TAC there are chances that they become Free Colonists.
    (Sub-feature of "Learning By Doing".)
     
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