Religion & Espionage

[QuixotesGhost]

I've seen read a couple of Espionage Guides on this forum, and not a single one mentions what I consider to be the most important part of an espionage strategy - The Holy City.

IIRC, Here's how it works (I don't have any save games to double check, atm).

If the following conditions are in place:

A. You control the shrine of your state religion
B. The target city has your state religion
C. The target empire has a different state religion

You get a whopping -40% modifier to spy missions. If they have the same state religion you get a less amazing but still substantial -25% modifier. Add that on top of the stationary spy bonus and trade routes, you can get enemy techs for a song. I think last game I was running spy missions on another continent for less than 1/3 of the base price.

When I want to go Espionage Heavy I normally give the finger to the Great Wall, and concentrate on getting that shrine - and early religion means a shot at Oracle for CoL. I'm curious why most players prioritize the Great Wall over a shrine. I find it hard to believe that a Great Spy can overcome the massive -% mission modifiers from controlling a shrine.

I also like Tokugawa for Espionage if I'm not going to build the shrine myself. Capture the shrine in a war then get cheap castles to power Espionage, and Tokugawa has the traits to smash anyone his has tech parity with (especially once gunpowder hits the field).

 

[DaveMcW]

Let's say your capital is your only commerce city. It produces 80% of your empire-wide commerce.

Putting a Scotland Yard in your capital gives +80% .
Putting a shrine in your holy city gives +33% . (100 / (100-25))

You can get the 15% different state religion bonus without a shrine.

After you build Scotland Yard and settle a spy or two, you can consider building a shrine.

 

[absimiliard]

I don't often get the -40%, but damn I love the -25%.

I agree it's a major part of an espionage game.

-abs

 

[CivCorpse]

Couple notes on GW vs shrine.
Settled spies with or without Scotland yard generate EP points or in the case of SY increase the rate they are generated. Your total number of EP points generated over the course of a game vs the same total from your opponent determines the base modifier for EP costs. This includes the passive effects as well, such as seeing research, city visibility and overall demographics. It also increases (or decreases if you are on the short end) the cost for your opponent. This base percentage is independant of how you have your EP points assigned.
By using the shrine you only get the advantage if your opponent has a city with your state religion present. In the case of religious zealots that run theocracy this may be an issue.

@ dave. It is usually better to settle the first GSpy and scotland yard second. Until Constitution building scotland yard raises EP by 10 max while a settled GS increases it by 12 PLUS 3 (6 if you built the mids and are running Rep). And you only get the 10 if you are running a spy specialist, which you may not be doing as you try to pop GSci for academies and/or the lib race.
Though the prefered use of a GSpy is the overpowered infiltration mission. On Marathon it generates 7500 or roughly 300 turns of a settled GSpy. And it does it so early that the base percentage plummets as well. You can usually steal 2-3 expensive medievil techs for that amount. Enough to get you caught up on higher levels. The main risk is that you will pick a leader that falls behind quickly due to being invaded by another AI. Thus your points go to waste.
I am a big fan of settling because of the even without Rep. That first GSpy come right when i am over extended and can be a big boost to my failing economy. On Marathon my games usually last about 1000 turns. So the 3 with just a library and no Rep add up to about 3000

 

[Tephros]

I'm curious why most players prioritize the Great Wall over a shrine. I find it hard to believe that a Great Spy can overcome the massive -% mission modifiers from controlling a shrine.

lol, because on immortal the barbarians might crush you before you can hook up copper? I can chop the great wall something like 95% of the time on immortal, and can get copper before barbs enter maybe 70% of the time.

Settled great spy allows you to put the research slider up while still having significant espionage, and Scotland yard in the city with the great spy is huge. Also if you have the great wall and complete the Best Defense quest, you can get +25 espionage for the great wall, which is huge.

I also like Tokugawa for Espionage if I'm not going to build the shrine myself. Capture the shrine in a war then get cheap castles to power Espionage, and Tokugawa has the traits to smash anyone his has tech parity with (especially once gunpowder hits the field).

That's a good strategy for Tokugawa, as he has little hope of researching techs himself. I'd rather build the great wall and then take the shrine by force.

@CivCorpse: On marathon it's 9000 espionage points for infiltration. Yes, it's huge, but I wouldn't do it unless the target had a massive tech lead and either won't trade or I have nothing to trade with.

 

[bippukt]

Is espionage such an important part of the game for so many people? In most of my games, I don't even train a spy. I just use espionage for finding out the research and demographics of my opponents. Am I missing out on something big?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Is espionage such an important part of the game for so many people? In most of my games, I don't even train a spy. I just use espionage for finding out the research and demographics of my opponents. Am I missing out on something big?

For games centered around diplo (both UN and AP), it can be absolutely vital.

In other games, it's "just" potentially very useful. Don't want to stop trading with a hated AI (due to religion)? Swap it into FR with you and now it's not a worst enemy anymore. Want to keep someone in a favorite civic so they're friendly? Influence. Want to break up a religious bloc? Drop defenses while moving at the max rate mounted units can take cities? Stop a tech-leading AI space race so you can launch first? Kick AIs out of other AIs favorite civics? Steal techs?

Espionage has amazing potential. Even better, the buildings give BASE POINTS even at 0% slider! All the espionage buildings in a city gives 40+/turn at 0%. That's obscene when you realize that with the right setup for tech stealing they're actually as valuable if not more so than straight beakers. However, if you're not using them to steal techs, you can easily use them to completely realign how the world works. The AI never uses it strategically, and be thankful for that, the potential is obscene.

 

[bippukt]

I can see where you are going...I must try to use espionage as one of my main weapons in a game. Time to read up on espionage

EDIT - AI usually posions my city's health, destroys towns mad and steals techs from me. Thank goodness they don't try to influence my religion just when I am low on military strength.

 

[Tephros]

I can see where you are going...I must try to use espionage as one of my main weapons in a game. Time to read up on espionage

EDIT - AI usually posions my city's health, destroys towns mad and steals techs from me. Thank goodness they don't try to influence my religion just when I am low on military strength.

Are you running the latest version? I remember when foment/poison was overpowered, like +24 or , but now it's only +8. As a result, I almost never use it or worry about it anymore.

Even if you're not relying on espionage, you should keep spies in some of your cities to make espionage less reliable and more expensive when directed against you.

Espionage is definitely an important thing to understand to improve your game. Even if you never put your espionage slider up, it's still useful to wield the base amount produced by jails, courthouses, etc. wisely.

 

[bippukt]

Yes, I agree with you on the need to have decent amount of EP even if you do not give it much importance - Keeping tab on your opponents and having spies perform counter-espionage against spy happy civs can be useful. Another dimension to this mind-boggling game - I got good value for my money, or my firend's money in the case of BTS

 

[ppciv4]

Great wall.... normally built 2700BC. forget it.

 

[Tephros]

Great wall.... normally built 2700BC. forget it.

That's because it's a cheap wonder that only requires some civs to research one technology. I chop it on immortal and very rarely get beaten to it. Common mistake is some people worry about getting stone. That would take too long. I build two workers before the great wall and I chop my first settler immediately after the GW.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Is espionage such an important part of the game for so many people? In most of my games, I don't even train a spy. I just use espionage for finding out the research and demographics of my opponents. Am I missing out on something big?

On higher levels the progress is usually that AIs leap out ahead in techs early, and after monumental effort (to include spying but also trading like a disease vector) you the human start to catch up mid-game, and by clever use of your resources, diplo, etc., you begin to get just enough of a tech lead in the mid-late phase that you can safely conquer.

Spying is huge.

 

[Skallagrimson]

I can see where you are going...I must try to use espionage as one of my main weapons in a game. Time to read up on espionage

EDIT - AI usually posions my city's health, destroys towns mad and steals techs from me. Thank goodness they don't try to influence my religion just when I am low on military strength.

My preferred first priority spy mission is counterespionage. That won't prevent all the poisons and the town downgrades to village, but at least it normally sends the cost of stealing a tech out of their range. It also seems to increase the chance of their spies getting caught.

Although if an AI has spammed me with their religion (their shrine) and I'm a different religion or no religion, that adds 100% to the modifier in my head of "should I pick that one as an early war target? Yes? GOOD!" Blow those trumpets, lets go bonk heads, before they spy us to death.

 

[QuixotesGhost]

I've never considered myself a math wizz (so my calculations might be off), but doesn't the fact that there are other modifiers change the calculations somewhat?

For example, last game I was doing some light espionage with a shrine, and was stealing techs for roughly 1/3 of the listed price. So for the sake of simplicity, let's pretend I had 35% cost to spy missions. Now, another person attempting to do the same mission without a shrine has a 60% cost to spy missions.

So that means for me a tech that costs 1000 costs 350 EPs to steal.
For him a tech that costs 1000 costs 600 EPs to steal.

That's a roughly ~70% difference. Plus, unlike every other modifier in Civ the espionage cost modifier is multiplicative not additive with +% EP modifiers. Let me show you some benchmarks to illustrate. Generally after everything is said and done you'll get a 75% mission cost modifier with a 5 turn stationary spy, before religion is factored in.

75% cost Same Religion, no shrine.
Raw EPs produce 1.33 to their equivalent in raw beakers.
2.66 to their equivalent in raw beakers if modified by Scotland yard.

60% cost Different Religion, No Shrine.
Raw EPs produce 1.66 to their equivalent in raw beakers.
EPs produce 3.22 to their equivalent in beakers if modified by Scotland Yard.

50% cost Same Religion, shrine.
Raw EPs produce 2 to their equivalent in Raw beakers.
EPs produce 4 to their equivalent in beakers if modified by Scotland Yard.

35% cost Different Religion, Shrine.
Raw EPs produce 2.85 their equivalent in raw beakers.
Raw EPs produce 5.7 their equivalent in raw beakers if modified by Scotland Yard.

Note that if your capable of pushing your modifier below 60%/35% with/without the Shrine, the Shrine will blow Scotland Yard out of the water.

As you can see a shrine, doesn't quite match SY, but it comes pretty damn close and applies to your entire empire. Let's examine this in the context of the choice of 2nd great person. Shrine or Settled Spy after SY? In a same religion scenario a settled GSpy produces ~32 EPs worth of beakers with SY. In a different religion scenario, a settled GSpy produces ~39EPs worth of raw beakers with SY. However the shrine pumps the EP conversion rate from 2.66-4 and 3.22-5.7 respectively.

In a same religion scenario if are devoting at least 24 raw EPs in your SY city (through commerce, palace, specialists, courthouse) the shrine is superior to a settled Great Spy.

In a different religion scenario if you are devoting at least 16 raw EPs in your SY city(through commerce, palace, specialists, courthouse) the shrine is superior to a settled Great Spy.

And we're still only talking about EP production in your capitol. The EPs produced in the rest of your empire benefit from the shrine.

Note I haven't mentioned the modifiers for espionage spending which does skew the results towards SY/Great Spy, but that's beyond my mathematical expertise to dissect.

Now let's talk about one of the significant drawbacks of going pure espionage - Great people. Great Spies produce very slowly for much of the game and most people want to keep their GPP pool pure so EE economies produce Great People very slowly. However, if you control a Holy City, you now have two GP that are immensely helpful to you: Prophets and Spies. So you can deliberately pollute your GPP pool with Prophet points to speed great person production. Instead of waiting on that meager 5 GPP a turn with your courthouse spy and GW, you can instead supplement your GPPs with priest specialists! Getting that next great person out so much quicker. If you pop a Prophet found that shrine, and drop the priest specialists. If you pop a spy, keep going with the knowledge that the spy you just popped came out much sooner than he would otherwise. It doesn't matter either way because both great people are huge boons to your espionage, and as we know the earlier you pop a Great Person the better they are. .

Note this is what makes the Oracle so amazing for Espionage. You pick up Code of Laws, often found Confucianism, and produce Great Prophet Points.

 

[QuixotesGhost]

Thppt. Seems I should actually double-check these things in game before theorycrafting all over the place. I could of swore that you needed the shrine. And everyone in this thread kept mentioning shrine.

I went Great Wall -> Oracle to found Confucianism in a game today as Ramses on Emperor after I posted. Turns out you don't need the shrine, merely the holy city for the -25% modifier. However, I popped out GSpy/GSpy/GSpy/GProhet in fairly quick order with the obelisks, and the shrine allowed me to run my slider two ticks higher, so the Prophet was definitely worth it. Mainly because I was already spreading Confucianism fairly hard-core for spying bonuses.

Considering that you don't even need the shrine, merely the holy city, it makes getting one that much better since there's less cost involved. I've always supposed that Firaxis replaced the city vision benefit of the shrine with the -EP% modifer, but nope, Shrines only give you gold and hasten the spread.