Religions: Something absurd amiss?

[thadian]

Sometimes a religion spawning is a good thing - other times its the begining of an atypical nightmare where the whole world converts to 1 religion (notably, Ashen Veil or Order).

I believe each civ AI should be more selective of its religious options. recently, when playing as the elves - following FoL, i recieved Way of the Earthmother as a "token" to sweeten a tech trade. i recieved a priest of kilmorph, and i thought all this time only a founder gets the unit!

It is senseless then that my ally, Elohim - converted to Ashen Veil. Just to see what would happen, i used world builder to place Order in all of Hyborem's cities (removing AV) and places AV in all of Basium's cities (removing order) and guess what happened? you don't even need to.

I believe the AI needs to be more selective of its religions. Elohim should NEVER convert to Ashen Veil - Shaem should NEVER follow Kilmorph or Empyrean. I know there has been many discussions about every AI in the world folding in to the first religion spread to its cities - but i think its important to bring up.

I would re-flavor the civ's myself but recently failed to a terrible degree to mod something else and im done trying. so please, when the next FFH comes out, keep this in mind.

Also, are we on 0.40 or 0.41, is there a changelog?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Sometimes a religion spawning is a good thing - other times its the begining of an atypical nightmare where the whole world converts to 1 religion (notably, Ashen Veil or Order).

If the Ljos, or Khazad are in the game, it's RoK or FoL.

Anyway, my changes (increasing the weights and limiting the FoL and RoK spread) can be found here.

With more details here.

They are all for FfH, through, since I don't play Fall Further.

 

[far_wanderer]

One part of this problem that I've been able to isolate is Great Prophets - that seems to be why civs like the Clan of Embers or the Svartalfar end up founding RoK. The civs can have whatever perfect balance of weights you can design, but if they end up with a Great Prophet to lightbulb and have the prerequisites for Way of the Earthmother, that's what they will found.

 

[Lone Wolf]

that seems to be why civs like the Clan of Embers or the Svartalfar end up founding RoK.

Never seen stuff like this (evil civ founding a good religion) happening. Maybe it's the FF thing?

 

[Honor]

Neither have I. Ever.

 

[Sarisin]

I also don't recall seeing much of that.

However, as the OP said, it is very common to see civs adopt religions that just don't seem to fit.

Let's face it, the given is that if they are in the game the elves will found FOL and the dwarves will found ROK. The problem is that if they found those religions early, and they usually do, other civs, including the unlikely ones, will adopt those religions as well.

Then, with those founded you go for one of the other later religions, you are in a minority and you have a religious-dogpiling on your hands.

I really see a lot more games where FOL and/or ROK are the dominant religions. Rarely do the others take hold unless a rare Evil civ gets a leg up and goes AV.

Also, after many versions of FFH/FF I never have understood the bulbing system with GPs. With some civs I can NOT bulb a religion. They will let me bulb Priesthood rather than a religion - yeah, that makes sense, you can build Priests, but you don't have a religion. Or Philosophy. However, some civs seem to get that chance to bulb founding religions. Leaving out the agnostic civs, shouldn't it be consistent for all the others?

 

[thadian]

Thanks, wolf! i will make sure i check out your changes because ive read many of your posts for the general BTS forum, argued with you many times in RFC - and its a joy to see you here. All of the changes you make to any of the mods you actively play/played seem to make perfect sense and ive often wondered why you aren't on a mod team.

Hopefully these changes give me more sensable games but i have a question.

You say you play with the options "AI doesn't need building requirements" - doesn't this cause it to spam out units above your lot? Or does it just stop it from trying to rush with scouts/warriors on turn 70ish?

Edit - to prove a point, ive made AI basium convert to AV and AI hyborem convert to Order. basium was easy because all i had to do was spread it in his city, follow his settler with a priest - spread it and BAM he converted. Hyborem i had to kill his evil ally, inquisitor the AV out of his empire, then spread order but sure enough - he converted.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Edit - to prove a point, ive made AI basium convert to AV and AI hyborem convert to Order. basium was easy because all i had to do was spread it in his city, follow his settler with a priest - spread it and BAM he converted. Hyborem i had to kill his evil ally, inquisitor the AV out of his empire, then spread order but sure enough - he converted.

I don't understand how you managed to did that. Basium has -100 towards AV, Hybo has -100 to everything except AV even in the default files. At least, in FfH.

Hopefully these changes give me more sensable games

The religion distribution in my games with these files:

1) (that game was played with weights slightly less deterministic then they are now)

Thessa (me) - FoL
Mahala - FoL
Sabathiel - Order
Flauros - Order - OO (making him go neutral)
Faeryl - CoE - AV
Perpentach - CoE
Tebryn - AV
Einion - Order
Beeri - Don't remember. He stayed Good, through.
Cassiel - Naturally, none. I include him just to complete the list.

2)
Einion (me) - Empyrean
Capria - Order
Varn - Order
Beeri - Order
Arturus - RoK
Flauros - OO
Keelyn - AV
Jonas - AV
Mahala - AV
Os-Gabella - OO. She never had any cities with Ashen Veil.
Faeryl - don't remember
Hannah - CoE - OO
Shekinah (minor Sidar leader I included in the epic game) - OO
Hybo - AV, of course.
Basium - Order

3) (in progress, things may change yet)
Mahala (me) - RoK
Sabathiel - Order
Garrim - RoK
Arendel - FoL
Faeryl - FoL
Ethne - FoL
Flauros - AV
Jonas - AV
Tebryn - AV
Cassiel - none, sure.
Perpentach - FoL
Hannah - CoE
Hybo - AV, naturally.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I have honestly newer seen something like this happen.
In most my games, I found OO and basicly the world gets evenly devided betwean the elves and good guys (FOL), Dwarves and industrialists (ROK) and Me and my allies (OO). I almost newer see order or EMP or god forbid AV, but I have newer seen a 1 religion earth thing.

PS. I have newer see a single civ ever go COE, ever.

 

[Rutee]

PS. I have newer see a single civ ever go COE, ever.

I must point out that that is sort of the point of the CoE. You /don't/ see people switch to them. I have found the Sidar, Balseraph, and Svartalfar as having belonged to it..

As to the AI being a bit more selective, I dunno. I sorta like that they seem to follow their weights. For instance, while I have seen an AV Bannor (And I can believe it, really. They're jerks.), I'm reasonably sure that if Order were properly spread in all their cities, they'd flip to that. I know I basically could not force Elven Vassals to flip out of FoL permanently, but that was a while ago.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Spoiler :

In most my games, I found OO and basicly the world gets evenly devided betwean the elves and good guys (FOL), Dwarves and industrialists (ROK) and Me and my allies (OO). I almost newer see order or EMP or god forbid AV, but I have newer seen a 1 religion earth thing.

One religion earth sometimes does happen, but even when it's not happening, RoK very often converts everyone Evil to Neutral. FoL and RoK both belong to the Religions-that-should-not-spread-so-much list anyway, so they are not that different to me in that regard. The reason OO is active in your games is, I suspect, you actively spreading it. And anyway, Emp and AV should definitely be present, right?

I have honestly newer seen something like this happen.

See the screenshot from one of current FfH SG's, for an example:

Spoiler :

Or a screenshot from one of the game challenges in the Strategy&Tips forum:

Spoiler :

In both cases, the human players didn't actively spread the religion.

As to the AI being a bit more selective, I dunno. I sorta like that they seem to follow their weights.

In that context, "more selective" = "more following their weights".

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Spoiler :

In most my games, I found OO and basicly the world gets evenly devided betwean the elves and good guys (FOL), Dwarves and industrialists (ROK) and Me and my allies (OO). I almost newer see order or EMP or god forbid AV, but I have newer seen a 1 religion earth thing.

One religion earth sometimes does happen, but even when it's not happening, RoK very often converts everyone Evil to Neutral. FoL and RoK both belong to the Religions-that-should-not-spread-so-much list anyway, so they are not that different to me in that regard. The reason OO is active in your games is, I suspect, you actively spreading it. And anyway, Emp and AV should definitely be present, right?

Not realy, OO just seems to spread as much as ROK and FOL. It's a farely early religion too. All the evil guys seem to like it more than the other two. It becomes almost eary when I meat a new civ and good behold they have the same religion as I do.

And to explain, I have newer seen it happen in my games.

The best thing would be to make it so that the AI converts to a religion only when 70% or more of it's population fallow it. Even if the AI has no religion at the time.

The way I see it, the AI seems to jump at the firts religion that spreads to their cities, and after that they rarely switch.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Not realy, OO just seems to spread as much as ROK and FOL.

Well, then you take steps to found it early.

It's a farely early religion too.

It's not for the AI. Which indicated that the reason OO is widespread in your games, is your influence.

And to explain, I have newer seen it happen in my games.

Well, I'm just saying that if you've never seen it in your games, doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist. Not to mention that your games show a lighter variant of the same problem.

The best thing would be to make it so that the AI converts to a religion only when 70% or more of it's population fallow it. Even if the AI has no religion at the time.

Why? Why should the Bannor convert to the Order or the Malakim convert to Empyrean only after it spreaded to 70% of their empire? The issue here is too much dominance of RoK/FoL and civs adopting unthematic religions, which I subdued by limiting the natural spread of them and increasing the religious weights, not AI converting to religions in general.

On a side note, I wonder how things will be with the removal of forced python beelines in 0.41. RoK and FoL will be surely found somewhat later, what surely will have an effect on things. I've never played a 0.41 game yet.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Well, then you take steps to found it early.

That is what I am saying. It is founded as early as the other two and spreads early. No problem with OO, end of story.

Well, I'm just saying that if you've never seen it in your games, doesn't mean that the problem doesn't exist. Not to mention that your games show a lighter variant of the same problem.

Nether am I! I don't know why you asume that I do?

Why? Why should the Bannor convert to the Order or the Malakim convert to Empyrean only after it spreaded to 70% of their empire? The issue here is too much dominance of RoK/FoL and civs adopting unthematic religions, which I subdued by limiting the natural spread of them and increasing the religious weights

Becouse the way it is now, they convert to any religion that comes into their cities. So if the Banor have no state religion and AV spreads to a 1 pop city on the border with Infernals they CONVERT TO AV.

The AI should only convert to religions if they have spread to more than N% of their population, with the % being diferent for each combination of Religion, leader and civ.

But this should not be done by making the AI prefer one religion over the other, but by literaly hard coding it (for the AI only). Becouse the way it is done now via AI preferences does not work. So for example the Banor (all leaders) should have a 1% value for Order and 101% value for AV, a say 40% value for Emp, 60% for OO. (hypotetical numbers of course but they show the idea)

So they can convert to order as soon as it pops up in their teritory, to EMP when it spreads somewhat, to OO when it realy spreads out and to AV newer. Get my concept?

 

[Lone Wolf]

That is what I am saying. It is founded as early as the other two and spreads early. No problem with OO, end of story.

There is a problem - by default settings with one of the early religion founders in the game it is never widespread unless a human player takes steps in that direction. Look at my examples - OO was not widespread, althrough definitely not underspread, too. But that's due to my XML tweaking.

But this should not be done by making the AI prefer one religion over the other, but by literaly hard coding it. Becouse the way it is done now via AI preferences does not work.

See the examples I posted in that thread. My system obviously works, more or less.

But this should not be done by making the AI prefer one religion over the other, but by literaly hard coding it.

Don't mind it, too. Your first quote:

The best thing would be to make it so that the AI converts to a religion only when 70% or more of it's population fallow it. Even if the AI has no religion at the time.

mistakenly made me think your a talking about all civs and all religions in all circumstances.

 

[Valkrionn]

The issue with OO is that no AI's really try to found it, unlike Leaves and RoK.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

mistakenly made me think your a talking about all civs and all religions in all circumstances.

Yea, I figured out that my post before was not realy clear about what I ment.
But you have to admit that it is the only certain way to avoid certain religions not being there, being overused ect and to avoid abominations like AV basilium.

 

[Lone Wolf]

and to avoid abominations like AV basilium.

Basium is set to -100, which means that nor he, not even a human player playing as him can adopt AV. I still don't realize how the OP managed him to convert.

I'm not against one, sometimes two, aligment changes per game. Ethne the Black, Bannor clergy following AV "for the Greater Good" or stuff like that should be allowed to happen, only it should be much, much rarer and require much effort on the part of someone who wants to corrupt them. That's why 90 was the highest weight value (in absolute terms) I allowed.

 

[Opera]

I was thinking... When the AI choose to convert, it refers to the leader's weights. But does it refer to all the weight or just the religion it's concerned about? If the latter, that would mean that, if you spread, say, AV in a Bannor city in a Bannor empire which hasn't yet any religion, the AI will check its weights and see that there's nothing higher than AV simply because there is nothing else than AV. And then, I guess that if you spread Order in the Bannor empire, they will convert, maybe even if you don't urge them to...

Well, if this is how it works, it should be possible to tweak it to take into account the weight even if it's the only one. The AI could check the following parameters:
- Cumulated size of the cities which have the concerned religion: more equal more weight toward conversion;
- Weight toward the religion: more weight equal even more weight toward conversion;
- Distance from the nearest center of government: how could a religion lost somewhere on a recently acquired island be chosen as the STATE religion?: closer equal more weight toward conversion; if on another landmass, the weight toward conversion should be greatly decreased (countered if the said landmass as any center of government)
- Distance from the capital: similar to the previous but different: closer equal more weight toward conversion;
- Distance from the Holy City: the effects of the Holy City would be greater the closer: the closer equals more weight toward conversion;
- Owner of the Holy City: (if the owner isn't the civ and the civ has a bad relation with the owner, less weight) if the owner is the civ, the weight would be greatly increased.

Of course, the religion weights and the weight toward conversion aren't the same thing. The former would merely be a parameter (dependant on the personality of the leader) of the latter (which would be more dependant of the actual in-game parameters).

 

[Onionsoilder]

I know in BTS there is a tag with Favorite Religion. I'm not sure if it exists in FFH, but if it does, we could do set some leaders to go with that religion, and others to have no preference so there is still some variation. For example, Dwarves will ALWAYS switch to RoK if it spreads in their empire, though they will still adopt other religions if RoK is absent. For borderline civilizations, some might have a favorite religion(Hannah and OO for example) while others may not (Falmar).