Religions

[Bolleque]

I am not sure if this topic was discussed. Some mods made changes to religions - like specific bonuses and penalties but also in a few project Confusianism was replaced by Zaraostrianism.

I am wondering if we really need two religions in China. Maybe Greek Orthodox could be a nice replacement.
Now it is, I believe, programmed that European civs prefer Christianity which is correct to some extend. However we have then Europe united with one religion which is absolutely not historical. We cannot go too far in details - like having all reformed religion but some differentiation of Christianity definitely add some realism.

 

[Rhye]

I was planning to add a classical western polytheism, but I'm not sure if it's better if it should be the most important one (probably the Greek olympianism) or better a more generic "mythology" that comprehends egyptian, norse and mesopotamian too.
Please note that this choice would have impact on the shape of the buildings, and on the tech related to that religion which should be made discovered by the appropriate civ first.

 

[Blasphemous]

I think there should be a simple religion called Polytheism or Pagan Polytheism that is not a completely normal religion in that it has no temples and no monasteries or cathedral, and does not have missionaries. This would be the first religion, coming in very, very early and spreading extremely fast. Its only building would be a super-cheap Altar that works like a Temple. The special thing about this religion would be that whenever one of the monotheistic religions spreads into a city, Polytheism disappears automatically along with any Altar in the city. Polytheism will not be able to spread to a city with any other religion. The Mesoamerican civs and the post-Roman European civs would spawn with this religion in all of their cities.
With this kind of setup, you'd see most of the world dominated by this religion for a while early on, but then when the monotheistic religions begin to spread this religion will simply eclipse in the Old World. The "Heathen" civs with this primitive religion will generally tolerate eachother rather well (so the "Brothers and Sisters" diplo bonus is fine) but they will rather quickly get into wars with non-Poly civs, especially Christians. Also, when Christian Europe discovers the New World, they will quickly get into conflicts with the Mesoamericans because of the religion (especially Izzy, who hates heathens so). Once the Christians have a religious foothold in the New World, Polytheism will eclipse there as well, as Christianity wipes it out (though this could equally happen with Judaism or Islam, all three possibilities are plausible).
The important thing is to keep this religion vague and not specific to any certain set of polytheistic beliefs. Through most of the civilized world in the era we're discussing here (this civilized world being closely related culturally to the Indo-European family of languages) polytheism was essentially one religion with varied practices and mythologies, varying from region to region but not necessarily exactly from nation to nation. The names and functions of gods are generally consistent with eachother throughout the Indo-European-speaking polytheistic world, and there was normally a shared belief that all gods are real, there just this one bunch "on our side" and that other bunch "on their side". It was not a collection of religions, it was a loose collection of common beliefs across huge expanses of land and culture.
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[Bolleque]

I think all those polytheism could be ignored - simply treated as lack of religion. But once Christianity is founded it makes civs more friendly to each other. However Russia and Spain should not be friends because of religion.

 

[Blasphemous]

I think all those polytheism could be ignored - simply treated as lack of religion. But once Christianity is founded it makes civs more friendly to each other. However Russia and Spain should not be friends because of religion.

There was a great deal of conflict between the monotheists and the polytheists in the Middle East and Europe. It was a very influential force in history. There should be a diplo hit between monotheists and pagans. (I'm intentionally leaving the Eastern religions out of this because I'm under the impression they play on a different playing field.) Besides, how are the myriad polytheistic belief systems that existed in the Middle East, Europe, and Northern Africa before Monotheism so irrelevant and so unlike the religions that are in, that polytheism should be ignored? Polytheism, just like later, more "sophisticated" religions, was a force of culture, identity, and appeasement of the masses. It should be in. And Egypt's UP should interact with it somehow.

 

[dh_epic]

Keep in mind how religion works in Civ 4. It has two main benefits:

1) Generates wealth.
2) Affects diplomacy.

To have a "Western Polytheism" religion is to say that all nations that had a Western Polytheism would get along better. With only a little bit of historical background, it's obvious this isn't the case. Peep the quote:

When these small kingdoms merged into larger groups (often through conquest), different cults merged. The conquest of one group by another is therefore recorded in an epic tale of the conquest of the conquered group's god by the victor's (e.g. some Hinduism and the Babylonian Marduk). Another solution was to synchretise different religious traditions, for example, the Romans' identification of their Gods with the Greeks and the Greeks' adoption of Anatolian myths and characters.

Rome and Greek may seem to have similar Gods. But this is only AFTER conquest, and the leaders of each civilization tried to find new ways to make sense of the world around them. Before then, their religions were distinct. And Rome and Greece did NOT get along better than, say, Rome and Egypt.

In other words, Polytheisms and Paganisms were usually national -- and did not spread like other religions. The only exception is Hinduism -- which is represented appropriately in Civilization 4. (Although the polytheistic nature of Hinduism is disputed).

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So, with that, what's the best way to represent the unique paganisms around the world?

Keeping in mind that each nation basically had their own religion up until the classical era... This mod actually does the best job of modelling that:

The mod includes one new normally-buildable building: the Pagan Temple. This building is identical to a normal temple, but has no religion prerequisite. When a new religion spreads into its city, it converts into a temple of the appropriate religion.

That's actually close to how religion really worked in the ancient times, before the major religions.

 

[Blasphemous]

Okay, it would make sense to put in a Pagan Temple buildable only with no state religion and no religion in the city, and not to have a Polytheism religion. However, it would be very important to add a new diplo hit for certain leaders towards leaders with no state religion (perhaps have this diplo hit annulled if the religious leader has Universal Sufferage or Free Speech active). Historically the hostility between Christian nations and "Heathens" was a very important mover. I would positively jump with joy to see a diplo hit called "I find your lack of faith disturbing..."

 

[HÄI]

Rome and Greek may seem to have similar Gods. But this is only AFTER conquest, and the leaders of each civilization tried to find new ways to make sense of the world around them. Before then, their religions were distinct. And Rome and Greece did NOT get along better than, say, Rome and Egypt.

In other words, Polytheisms and Paganisms were usually national -- and did not spread like other religions. The only exception is Hinduism -- which is represented appropriately in Civilization 4. (Although the polytheistic nature of Hinduism is disputed).

Actually Greeks at least believed that all people of the mediterranean basically had the same religion, but with different names for Gods and heroes. Religion was not really a cause of conflicts, basically it did not affect relations. A western polytheism religion in Civ would be useless then.

 

[Blasphemous]

I actually agree that the relationships between Polytheistic civs should be largly neutral from the get-go. I mean, we could implement Polytheism as I suggested before, but I would then say we have to eliminate the diplo bonus and that leaves very little for the religion to exist for (since it would have no missionaries and none of the normal buildings). It would definately be a mistake to create a few different Polytheisms with negative diplo hits between them because different brands of Polytheism did not necessarily create a great deal of strife between nations.

 

[dh_epic]

Yeah. Compared to the "World Religions" the various paganisms and polytheisms didn't do much for diplomacy OR wealth. And there were certainly no missionaries.

Adding pagan temples might be a decent addition for the purposes of simulation. After all, they did worship local gods, and that did provide both happiness and culture.

The differences between the paganisms would be irrelevent. If Rome conquered Greece with a Greek temple, it would just as easily become a Roman temple... and it wouldn't take more than a generation or two for the priests to explain the relationship between Greek God A and Roman God B, combining the religions just as easily as one can combine territory.

 

[Arkaeyn]

In a historical sense, I'd get rid of Taoism, Judaism, and Hinduism, and replace them with Greek Orthodox, Protestantism, and Zoroastrianism. But I'm not sure that would do any good for gameplay.

One idea I had some time ago was to make there be fewer main religions, but each has two forms. Thus you could get:

Christianity: Catholicism/Orthodox (or Protestantism)
Islam: Sunni/Shiite
Indian religions: Hinduism/Buddhism
Chinese: Confucianism/Taoism

It makes a lot more sense in the first two cases than in the latter two, but I think it offers more flexibility for interesting things happening religion-wise in the game.

 

[SilverKnight]

Keep in mind how religion works in Civ 4. It has two main benefits:

1) Generates wealth.
2) Affects diplomacy.

To have a "Western Polytheism" religion is to say that all nations that had a Western Polytheism would get along better. With only a little bit of historical background, it's obvious this isn't the case. Peep the quote:

When these small kingdoms merged into larger groups (often through conquest), different cults merged. The conquest of one group by another is therefore recorded in an epic tale of the conquest of the conquered group's god by the victor's (e.g. some Hinduism and the Babylonian Marduk). Another solution was to synchretise different religious traditions, for example, the Romans' identification of their Gods with the Greeks and the Greeks' adoption of Anatolian myths and characters.

Rome and Greek may seem to have similar Gods. But this is only AFTER conquest, and the leaders of each civilization tried to find new ways to make sense of the world around them. Before then, their religions were distinct. And Rome and Greece did NOT get along better than, say, Rome and Egypt.

In other words, Polytheisms and Paganisms were usually national -- and did not spread like other religions. The only exception is Hinduism -- which is represented appropriately in Civilization 4. (Although the polytheistic nature of Hinduism is disputed).

------------------------------------------------------

So, with that, what's the best way to represent the unique paganisms around the world?

Keeping in mind that each nation basically had their own religion up until the classical era... This mod actually does the best job of modelling that:

The mod includes one new normally-buildable building: the Pagan Temple. This building is identical to a normal temple, but has no religion prerequisite. When a new religion spreads into its city, it converts into a temple of the appropriate religion.

That's actually close to how religion really worked in the ancient times, before the major religions.

I love this idea!

Okay, it would make sense to put in a Pagan Temple buildable only with no state religion and no religion in the city, and not to have a Polytheism religion. However, it would be very important to add a new diplo hit for certain leaders towards leaders with no state religion (perhaps have this diplo hit annulled if the religious leader has Universal Sufferage or Free Speech active). Historically the hostility between Christian nations and "Heathens" was a very important mover. I would positively jump with joy to see a diplo hit called "I find your lack of faith disturbing..."

Agreed.

Also, get rid of Taoism. Just beefs up the culture of some Asian cities unnecessarily, making them a pain to conquer (especially Mongolia to China).

My .

SilverKnight