Religions

miserable09 said:
Does christianity ever spread on it's own?
Click to expand...

Yes. I founded Christianity in my latest game... and couldn't use my missionary! The turn before he got to the targeted city, that city would go christian. When the English dropped a city up in Newfoundland (I'm playing American), London swapped a few turns later.
 
storm6436 said:
Yes. I founded Christianity in my latest game... and couldn't use my missionary! The turn before he got to the targeted city, that city would go christian. When the English dropped a city up in Newfoundland (I'm playing American), London swapped a few turns later.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. Weird. Because I'm playing as England, and it has not spread to any of my cities except for the ones I have sent missionaries too. And it's been quite a while now too...
 
Have you been Muslim or Jewish before you became christian and if yes have you set up your state religion to christianity as well? have you installed 2.1.1 patch?
 
This is a really big idea that might be difficult to implement, but maybe you could change it so that a Great Prophet is necessary in order to found a religion. This would be more realistic than having religions founded by techs, and you could actually have a choice as to what religion you wanted to found. Then you could make great shrines regular wonders, but only buildable in holy cities.

If possible, you could add a "customizable" religion that is named after your Civ, i.e. Roman Religion, English Religion, Aztec Religion. This religion would be unique to your Civ, and could not spread, sort of like you did with Judaism. It could offer a certain bonus, like the trade routes bonus you gave to Judaism, but better. Then if you founded one of the religions that do spread, you could convert convert to that, and you would lose the bonus, but you could spread it to other Civs. The unique religions would not get missionaries, monasteries, or great shrines, but would allow you to build temples and cathedrals even if you are isolated and don't found your own religion. This would be reflective of the fact that all civilizations/empires/tribes/random groups of people have their own religions, but these never spread to other regions, unlike the big ones that did.
 
kaoruchan42 said:
This is a really big idea that might be difficult to implement, but maybe you could change it so that a Great Prophet is necessary in order to found a religion. This would be more realistic than having religions founded by techs, and you could actually have a choice as to what religion you wanted to found. Then you could make great shrines regular wonders, but only buildable in holy cities.

If possible, you could add a "customizable" religion that is named after your Civ, i.e. Roman Religion, English Religion, Aztec Religion. This religion would be unique to your Civ, and could not spread, sort of like you did with Judaism. It could offer a certain bonus, like the trade routes bonus you gave to Judaism, but better. Then if you founded one of the religions that do spread, you could convert convert to that, and you would lose the bonus, but you could spread it to other Civs. The unique religions would not get missionaries, monasteries, or great shrines, but would allow you to build temples and cathedrals even if you are isolated and don't found your own religion. This would be reflective of the fact that all civilizations/empires/tribes/random groups of people have their own religions, but these never spread to other regions, unlike the big ones that did.
Click to expand...
Yes Hian the Frog, Spartan and I (amongst others) discussed this in the old thread. The team was putting this issue aside until some of the bugs were eliminated.
 
@ kaoruchan42

Ankenaton is right. At that time i wait for the next release, the warlord compatible one and bug fixed.
As Ankenaton wrote, some ideas were discussed. Something good could awake for all of our ideas... Be patient, as us ! If you have time to waste, read previous posts of the last two weeks in the gerenal thread. You will read what we hope to be added...

The Frog.
 
Hmm post your ideas to this thread about religion guys. The old discussions are forgotten. :)

Before you judge the new values please read them carefully, and you should not underestimate the power of Missionaries. Religions with more missionaries are easier to spread than the plain spread factor:

This is the planned spread rate for Gold version:

RELIGION_JUDAISM, was 0%, will become 33%, 1 Missionary

RELIGION_CHRISTIANITY was 12% will become 65%, 6 Missionaries

RELIGION_ISLAM was 37%, will become 75%, 4 Missionaries (Plans to remove Missionaries and make every conquered city convert to Islam: in this case Spread rate 60%, no Missionaries until modern times)

RELIGION_HINDUISM remains at 50%, 2 Missionaries

RELIGION_BUDDHISM was 50%, will become 75%, 3 Missionaries

RELIGION_ZOROASTRIANISM remains at 45%, 1 Missionary (maybe 2)

RELIGION_TAOISM was 45% will become 50%, 2 Missionaries

You see the boost in new religions, so be pleased. :D

Regarding some comments about Judaism and its 'spread rate' in real world. The jews were mostly living spread over the world before they have taken Palestine as their home country (oh oh I will be flamed now :D ). But only because they lived spread over the worl didn't mean that Judaism spread as a religion. You have to understand this difference, because they didn;t invite people to become Jewish therefore no spread rate at all in real world. Only in few cases, when a Jewish mother was married to a christian man, the children become Jewish after the Jewish law. But in most cases they are expelled from the community anyway. But still I think 33% is good enough to give it some power in game. SInce Judaism has better trade rates in game once the temples are built, it shall be a small but strong religion. Otherwise it becomes unbalanced.

Regarding Zoroastrianism, it was the major religion before the Islamic invasion. Between Buddhists and Hinduists in the east from West India (Pakistan) until west Iraq (at that time greater Iran) up north to Caucasus and Asian steppes to the borders of CHina in the east and Roman/Byzanz in the West every one was Zoroastrian. The spread rate started 1500 BC until 651 CE, and it had Millions of followers. Therefore it is not compareable to Judaism at all (regarding some comments that nowadays there are 20 Mio Jewish world wide?). Only the path of history has changed its destiny... so enough history for now
 
Houman said:
Hmm post your ideas to this thread about religion guys. The old discussions are forgotten. :)

Before you judge the new values please read them carefully, and you should not underestimate the power of Missionaries. Religions with more missionaries are easier to spread than the plain spread factor:

This is the planned spread rate for Gold version:

RELIGION_JUDAISM, was 0%, will become 33%, 1 Missionary

RELIGION_CHRISTIANITY was 12% will become 65%, 6 Missionaries

RELIGION_ISLAM was 37%, will become 75%, 4 Missionaries (Plans to remove Missionaries and make every conquered city convert to Islam: in this case Spread rate 60%, no Missionaries until modern times)

RELIGION_HINDUISM remains at 50%, 2 Missionaries

RELIGION_BUDDHISM was 50%, will become 75%, 3 Missionaries

RELIGION_ZOROASTRIANISM remains at 45%, 1 Missionary (maybe 2)

RELIGION_TAOISM was 45% will become 50%, 2 Missionaries

You see the boost in new religions, so be pleased. :D

Regarding some comments about Judaism and its 'spread rate' in real world. The jews were mostly living spread over the world before they have taken Palestine as their home country (oh oh I will be flamed now :D ). But only because they lived spread over the worl didn't mean that Judaism spread as a religion. You have to understand this difference, because they didn;t invite people to become Jewish therefore no spread rate at all in real world. Only in few cases, when a Jewish mother was married to a christian man, the children become Jewish after the Jewish law. But in most cases they are expelled from the community anyway. But still I think 33% is good enough to give it some power in game. SInce Judaism has better trade rates in game once the temples are built, it shall be a small but strong religion. Otherwise it becomes unbalanced.

Regarding Zoroastrianism, it was the major religion before the Islamic invasion. Between Buddhists and Hinduists in the east from West India (Pakistan) until west Iraq (at that time greater Iran) up north to Caucasus and Asian steppes to the borders of CHina in the east and Roman/Byzanz in the West every one was Zoroastrian. The spread rate started 1500 BC until 651 CE, and it had Millions of followers. Therefore it is not compareable to Judaism at all (regarding some comments that nowadays there are 20 Mio Jewish world wide?). Only the path of history has changed its destiny... so enough history for now
Click to expand...

Houman,

It seems good IMO. A low value for Judaism, medium for most of the religions,....
I only disagree on one point: 75% to buddism ! I agree it's a major religion but 60-65% would be better IMO.
Meanwhile, before any "true" conclusion, it should be tested....

The Frog.
 
Hian the Frog said:
Houman,

It seems good IMO. A low value for Judaism, medium for most of the religions,....
I only disagree on one point: 75% to buddism ! I agree it's a major religion but 60-65% would be better IMO.
Meanwhile, before any "true" conclusion, it should be tested....

The Frog.
Click to expand...
Yes I agree Buddhism should be set at either 60-65% and perhaps Islam should be increased to 65%. Just imagine what the world would have been like without Islam's spread through Asia and Africa. Would it have been a less dangerous world. Or would it have been one where Zoroastrinism squared off against Christianity. Hey maybe I can write an alternative history science fiction novel on this premise, huh. ;)
 
Buddhism has too high spread rate.

As does christianity. Seeing as it is more of a missionary religion, how about giving it no natural spread and unlimited missionaries?

Taoism needs a higher spread rate. It's just too weak.
 
Yeah, this values need to be tested. The map is interesting but not very accurate. South-East Iran are Sunnis, as well as the Kurdish part in the middle-west. Iraq is 60% Shia and Lebanon is Shia too. Not sure about Syria... If these obvious errors are done here (cmon guys even if you wouldn;t know that, watch News on TV and you get who is SHia and who is Sunni)

I am wondering how many errors have been done in far east sofar.... ;)
 
Houman said:
Yeah, this values need to be tested. The map is interesting but not very accurate. South-East Iran are Sunnis, as well as the Kurdish part in the middle-west. Iraq is 60% Shia and Lebanon is Shia too. Not sure about Syria... If these obvious errors are done here (cmon guys even if you wouldn;t know that, watch News on TV and you get who is SHia and who is Sunni)

I am wondering how many errors have been done in far east sofar.... ;)
Click to expand...
I thought Lebanon was at least one third Maronite Christian and there is a sizable Druze minority (don't know the percentage). :crazyeye:
 
@Ankenaton

Of course sorry, I expressed myself not clearly. Of course Libanon is about 40%-50% Christian. Shia is sort of originating there though, which was pretty much importet by Persian Kings about 400 years ago into Iran. I was going to say that South Libanon is an important source of Shia religion beside Iran.

The Inquisis are not used by AI in TR. If Lopez's Inquisis are better. I will try to implement them this weekend. The Lopez favorite religion is already flagged for Beta 2 or Gold version. ;)
 
Houman said:
@Ankenaton

Of course sorry, I expressed myself not clearly. Of course Libanon is about 40%-50% Christian. Shia is sort of originating there though, which was pretty much importet by Persian Kings about 400 years ago into Iran. I was going to say that South Libanon is an important source of Shia religion beside Iran.

The Inquisis are not used by AI in TR. If Lopez's Inquisis are better. I will try to implement them this weekend. The Lopez favorite religion is already flagged for Beta 2 or Gold version. ;)
Click to expand...
@Houman

Thanks for the clarification bro', I was not trying to sweat you, lol. I thought maybe there had been a huge population explosion of Shia throughout Lebanon.
 
One area of Civ gameplay that I feel could have been stronger is the religious aspect. Now, I know that even the limited spiritual dimensions introduced in the game represent a certain risk to the franchise, political, social, and economic realities being what they are. So it is true that their introduction in the first place was a decision of some courage. However, I find (as have many others) that ultimately they feel like an unfinished engine at best, or simple window dressing at worst.

Even a cursory examination of world history will show the tremendous influence religion has had on human history, for good or ill. Given that it is such an important part of our affairs, I think it deserves a better system.

My basic idea (and I apologize ahead of time if it has already been suggested) is to introduce a religious system more closely modeled after the civics system. Civ 4 has done away with clear cut government types, instead allowing the player to choose from a menu of societal outlooks, each with certain characteristics. I would like to see a similar system with respect to religion.

There would be categories like the civics system, where the player could choose his outlook. For instance, one category might be "Belief Structure" or something, with options ranging from polythiesm to shamanism to even no accepted supernatural entity(ies).

Individual choices within a category would become available with certain techs, both religious (for instance, Monothiesm might unlock a Monothiesm option under the appropriate category) and more secular (for instance, hunting might unlock nature worship or shamanic aspects). Certain combinations of choices would result in the adoption or founding of a religion.

This system readily allows for derivitive religions, by having some with more closely related characteristics. For instance, after Chrisitanity has been founded, someone who alters one of the categories might found Lutheranism. Such a system allows for a more complex diplomatic situation, with more closely related religions perhaps tolerating others better (although historically, it has often been the other way around).

In my opinion, such a system has a number of advantages:

1. Detail: I know many people (myself included) simply like our grand strategy games to be as detailed as possible. Not everyone agrees, and certainly at some point the contention gets absurd, but currently religions are too bland.

2. Diversity: Obviously we would want to be careful to treat every belief with respect. But there are significant differences in these various spiritual views, and I think that a blanket happiness system sells them short.

3. Diplomacy: Currently it's either "I love you" or "I hate you" when it comes to religion. This system would allow diplomacy to be influenced by the similarities and differences of their respective beliefs.

4. Schisms: Although this is in apparent contrast to number 3, this system also allows for division along religious lines in the form of a schism. Either based on historical factors or on a some random chance, a subsequent developing religion might be considering schismatic, prompting an intense dislike between practicioners of the old and new beliefs.

5. Increase tech balance: By spreading out the religious tenets in a way similar to the civics, we can improve the tech balance. By increasing the number of religions, we can decrease the mysticism early advantage in founding religions.

Well, that's essentially what I've got. Obviously the idea is rough, and to be honest, I don't know how to execute it anyway. I'm one of those selfish people who makes a post about what I'd like to see, but I don't have the skills to make it happen.

Thanks for reading.
 
LeperColony said:
One area of Civ gameplay that I feel could have been stronger is the religious aspect. Now, I know that even the limited spiritual dimensions introduced in the game represent a certain risk to the franchise, political, social, and economic realities being what they are. So it is true that their introduction in the first place was a decision of some courage. However, I find (as have many others) that ultimately they feel like an unfinished engine at best, or simple window dressing at worst.

Even a cursory examination of world history will show the tremendous influence religion has had on human history, for good or ill. Given that it is such an important part of our affairs, I think it deserves a better system.

My basic idea (and I apologize ahead of time if it has already been suggested) is to introduce a religious system more closely modeled after the civics system. Civ 4 has done away with clear cut government types, instead allowing the player to choose from a menu of societal outlooks, each with certain characteristics. I would like to see a similar system with respect to religion.

There would be categories like the civics system, where the player could choose his outlook. For instance, one category might be "Belief Structure" or something, with options ranging from polythiesm to shamanism to even no accepted supernatural entity(ies).

Individual choices within a category would become available with certain techs, both religious (for instance, Monothiesm might unlock a Monothiesm option under the appropriate category) and more secular (for instance, hunting might unlock nature worship or shamanic aspects). Certain combinations of choices would result in the adoption or founding of a religion.

This system readily allows for derivitive religions, by having some with more closely related characteristics. For instance, after Chrisitanity has been founded, someone who alters one of the categories might found Lutheranism. Such a system allows for a more complex diplomatic situation, with more closely related religions perhaps tolerating others better (although historically, it has often been the other way around).

In my opinion, such a system has a number of advantages:

1. Detail: I know many people (myself included) simply like our grand strategy games to be as detailed as possible. Not everyone agrees, and certainly at some point the contention gets absurd, but currently religions are too bland.

2. Diversity: Obviously we would want to be careful to treat every belief with respect. But there are significant differences in these various spiritual views, and I think that a blanket happiness system sells them short.

3. Diplomacy: Currently it's either "I love you" or "I hate you" when it comes to religion. This system would allow diplomacy to be influenced by the similarities and differences of their respective beliefs.

4. Schisms: Although this is in apparent contrast to number 3, this system also allows for division along religious lines in the form of a schism. Either based on historical factors or on a some random chance, a subsequent developing religion might be considering schismatic, prompting an intense dislike between practicioners of the old and new beliefs.

5. Increase tech balance: By spreading out the religious tenets in a way similar to the civics, we can improve the tech balance. By increasing the number of religions, we can decrease the mysticism early advantage in founding religions.

Well, that's essentially what I've got. Obviously the idea is rough, and to be honest, I don't know how to execute it anyway. I'm one of those selfish people who makes a post about what I'd like to see, but I don't have the skills to make it happen.

Thanks for reading.
Click to expand...

Hi man,

Interesting. I agree with many things but not all.
Religion was/is/will be one of the main factor of hates between peoples. This is not enough showed in Civ4. The system is very basic, you are right. It could be improved a little to make diplomacy more interesting....

The Frog.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Jayman1000
Discord?
Replies
5
Views
493
Walter Hawkwood
Walter Hawkwood
K
What if religions couldn't be controlled, only welcomed or suppressed?
Replies
9
Views
692
Nic@Melbourne
N
Tomatekh
Tomatekh's Historical Religions VII
2 3
Replies
47
Views
4K
Ryansinbela
Ryansinbela
Xyael
Pantheons and Religions
Replies
10
Views
600
chaosprophet
C
planetfall
Can you phoenix a religion?
Replies
3
Views
330
user746383
U
Back
Top Bottom