[NFP] Religious Victory Elimination Thread

[JesseS]

The remaining top four are very good at peaceful religious games in their own ways, but I think that the strength of violent religious games has been under-rated throughout this thread. If you can pillage 100-300 faith per turn, while simultaneously crippling your opponents' ability to create apostles, why do you even need to maximize adjacency bonuses?

Gandhi/India [12] Just won a t119 game with Genghis and saw the strength of early missionaries.
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [16](15+1) IMO, the only one who can give Peter a run for his money on peaceful religious games. Half-priced holy sites are great, cheap theaters will help get you to Theocracy, and the adjacency bonuses improve your faith income over time. Most of all, I appreciate Japan's flexibility to switch between religious, cultural and scientific victories, depending on how the map looks after initial exploration. And sure, Russia can almost guarantee getting Dance of the Aurora, but there's an opportunity cost to this choice--if you can only get 3-4 cities with solid tundra Lavras, how does the strategy rate against Japan using Earth Goddess?
Peter/Russia [34]
Saladin/Arabia [12](15-3) Arabia's bonuses generally come the latest of any of the remaining contenders. The worship building being basically free is nice, but you have to get temples up first. And how many campuses and madrassas are you even going to build in a religious game?

edit: two comments came in while typing, scoring is corrected now

 

[Hans Castorp]

JesseS posted as I was typing, but seems to have given Hojo an additional two points in error on top of his +1. I've adjusted the scores to include his, but removed the extra points. Moderators correct me if I am mistaken.

Gandhi/India [12]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [13] (16-3) We are probably at the point where this ceases to be feasible, but I'll refrain from upvoting or downvoting the same leaders twice in a row for this round at least. Below Peter, they probably are all much of a much, but I'm in the school that puts speed and combat edge first. Why then downvote Hojo? I'd put him ahead of Saladin, but below Gandhi. The HS comes quickly, quicker than Gandhi, but the adjacency bonus takes time to build up even with cheap TS. The combat bonus is underwhelming if you are not on a water map. Gandhi has means of generating more faith in the early part of the game, and can capitalise on the extra missionary spreads.
Peter/Russia [35] (34+1) Lavras are terrific, and early pantheons are as well.
Saladin/Arabia [12]

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Gandhi/India [9] 12-3 Apostles are what win RV not missionaries. Surprised Gandhi lasted this long, astonished Mansa was eliminated before him
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [14] (13+1) Strong all rounder and a worthy second place IMO
Peter/Russia [35] (34+1) Obvious winner
Saladin/Arabia [12] Last Prophet underwhelming for a RV

 

[Banazir864]

Gandhi/India [9]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15] (14+1)
Peter/Russia [35]
Saladin/Arabia [9] (12-9)

Hojo has the only cheap Holy Sites other than Russia, and can get high adjancencies if he clusters his cities (which he should). If you’re lucky, you can even stack this with Desert Folklore, placing a cluster of cities around a desert filled with districts and working the non-desert tiles. Still not as good as Russia, but a clear second place, IMO.

Meanwhile, many of Saladin’s bonuses are better if you’re using religion to supplement a Science or Domination victory rather than going for a Religious Victory. If you need The Last Prophet, you’re probably already way behind, and the science from conversion means you need fewer campuses and thus fewer madrassas. Many of their bonuses seem more geared toward using religion without having to go out of your way for it than towards actively pursuing it as a win strategy (not that they’re not good at that, too, but this is final four).

 

[Kwami]

Gandhi/India [6] (9 - 3) The only one left that doesn't have anything to help him found a religion before the prophets are taken. His Faith generation isn't really better than the others, either. So, it's all about the missionary charges and the trade routes. The trade routes are minor. The missionary spreads are pretty great if you get a really good early game, but they're quickly outclassed once apostles are everywhere.
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [16] (15+1) Cheap holy sites, cheap theater squares, great adjacency on both. Hojo can use his district adjacency bonuses to get an easier golden age in the Classical era.
Peter/Russia [35]
Saladin/Arabia [9]

 

[MrTans]

Gandhi/India [6]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17] Should be the runner up to Peter here. Half price holy sites and theatre squares to race through the civics tree. Adjacency bonuses are very easy to come by as well which helps with consistency across games.
Peter/Russia [35]
Saladin/Arabia [6] I don’t think The Last Prophet is particularly great for an RV, you’re likely going to be a long way behind other religions if you are banking on this ability and left with a less than ideal choice of beliefs. His other bonuses come online a lot later than Japan for example which knocks him down further in my opinion.

 

[Josephias]

Gandhi/India [6]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Peter/Russia [36] (35+1) OK, at this point it is clear Peter wins. I'll stay on Team Hojo nevertheless from now on, but let's give him this +1 in recognition Lavras do indeed provide a tremendous extra +1 faith (due to the extra Great Prophet Point).
Saladin/Arabia [3] (6-3) I'm torn to put Saladin in the chopping block, but @Banzair864 argument is interesting in that it show us he may have as well some inconsistency issues, as India has. The discussion about Last Prophet not being needed if you want to join the run in order to pick beliefs was good, but it is also relevant the fact you may not need that much science for a RV, so doubling science via spread and Madrassas may not be necessary. All in all, I like Saladin because for a long game, he gives flexibility on victory condition, but maybe his strenghts on "pure" RV are not that much - and I don't want to downvote Ghandi twice in a row.

 

[Solver]

Gandhi/India [3] (6 - 3) See below.
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Peter/Russia [36]
Saladin/Arabia [4] (3 + 1) Saladin deserves #3 if not #2. Gandhi's Missionaries are sweet but Saladin is much more flexible and better if the game drags on for any reason. Saladin is sure not to fall behind in science, and his long-term faith generation due to T3 buildings is higher, and ramps up faster, than Gandhi's. And personally, in these elimination rankings, I place a lot of importance on how likely the leader is not to be wiped out early if pursuing that victory. In the context of RV, that question is all about how much military you have to sacrifice to grab a religion - founding religions is early-game stuff, which is exactly when Immortal/Deity declarations of war are very likely. Saladin is the best at this, as his ability allows a proper defensive build first. Gandhi is the worst of the four remaining in terms of such safety. Hojo and Peter need to build that HS/Lavra early, but they're built at half cost, meaning you can squeeze another unit in. Gandhi is the only one of these four leaders who needs a full-priced Holy Site built early to grab a religion.

 

[Francel]

Gandhi/India [0] 3-3 Eliminated
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Peter/Russia [36]
Saladin/Arabia [5] 4+1

Honestly just don’t want Arabia to finish 4th. The cases have been well articulated. For me, Arabia has flexibility and overall strength. Science as mentioned is important on maps that require cartography. Also, low science means you can die to hostile neighbors much more easily. India’s missionaries are strong but probably don’t hold up well to apostles, especially debaters.

I still maintain it’s not that bad to get the last religion. If you want choral music, you probably have to be first or second. If you aren’t first, the order doesn’t matter so much, as long as you do get a prophet. Not needing to rush holy site and project is huge for flexibility to do other things - conquer, expand, wonder building, at the most crucial point in the game.

Also, you can easily miss a prophet when you expect to get one with Arabia opponent. Diety especially.

 

[Codeword Iroquois]

Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Peter/Russia [33] (36-3) The main thing going for Russia is the Lavra. Getting a religion twice as fast is nice, and getting more faith from tundra is nice, but tundra isn't a guarantee. It's only a bias.
Saladin/Arabia [6](5+1) His bonuses all synergize towards science and faith. You have cheaper buildings, and bonuses for using the bonus just mentioned, as well as a free second faith adjacency with the Madrasa, makes it easier to go for it.

 

[monikernemo]

Hojo Tokimune/Japan [17]
Peter/Russia [34] (33 + 1) While tundra is a bias, it is easier to find tundra than finding desert. Just head to one of the poles and you will be more or less guaranteed a tundra.
Saladin/Arabia [3] (6 - 3) Not denying that Madrasas are bad but 250 prod is some hefty investment for maybe some bonus faith.

 

[Baigan]

Hojo Tokimune/Japan [18] 17+1 Japan's play pattern is more interesting and fun for me than Russia's.
Peter/Russia [34]
Saladin/Arabia [0] 3-3 ELIMINATED Arabia is an excellent religious civ but seems more suited for SV than RV. The Last Prophet allows you to prioritize military/expansion/critical infrastructure but actually using it means that you're picking from the scraps for beliefs, likely Jesuit Education. Which is a perfectly fine Founder belief, but it supports SV far more than RV. The bonuses to Faith income come relatively late, especially if we delay the construction of Holy Sites, and don't compare to Russia's massive Faith-from-tundra or Japan's consistent and early Holy Site adjacency buffs.

 

[Drivingrevilo]

I imagine this will be my final post in this thread, so thanks everyone for the eye-opening viewpoints.

Hojo Tokimune/Japan [15] (18-3)
Peter/Russia [35] (34+1) For all the reasons said already.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Hojo Tokimune/Japan [12] (15-3)
Peter/Russia [36] (35+1)

We need a justification for each vote so I'll say it simple:

• Faith generation: Japan is more consistent, but I don't remember a start with Russia without tundra (plus the 6 extra tiles when fouding a city ensure to have at least one or two tundra tiles in your first city), so Russia will produce faith quicker and grab a pantheon usually faster than Japan.
• Holy Sites and Great Prophets: while both can build their HS twice quicker, the Lavra produce 1 extra GPP, which means at equal number of HS and before Political Philosophy (granted that Japan don't take Divine Spark but it's a stretch), Russia will produce twice GPP than Japan, ensuring a Great Prophet quicker.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

Hojo Tokimune/Japan [9] (12-3) I'm actually really impressed by Japan for getting here. They are definitely one of the preeminent generalist civs, and for a generalist civ to reach #2 in a victory elimination thread speaks volumes about their capability.
Peter/Russia [37] (36+1) The King of religious victory since day one vanilla days and it still continues. Although I love them, I wouldn't be mad if it's revealed that later today that Ethiopia becomes the new King. I'd really like a new civ completely geared towards a religious victory. None of the DLC civs got close. R+F had absolutely nothing. Only Mali in GS could crack the top 5. It says a lot that 4/5 of the top religious civs are vanilla. Here's hoping that Ethiopia can unseat that crown.

 

[JhGf_123]

Hojo Tokimune/Japan [6] (9-3) A worthy second place behind the Lavra Leviathan. All eyes on Ethiopia!
Peter/Russia [38] (37+1)

 

[EmJayLambert]

Hojo Tokimune/Japan [3] (6-3) Yeah this is only going one way.
Peter/Russia [39] (38+1)

 

[fredrikslicer]

Hojo Tokimune/Japan [0] (3-3) Generalist not specialist Eliminated
Peter/Russia [39] (39+1) Lets end this

 

[Naeshar]

Hojo Tokimune/Japan [0] (3-3) Generalist not specialist Eliminated
Peter/Russia [39] (39+1) Lets end this

Peter should be at 40. Which is insane to finish at .
I came too late to vote, unfortunately, but thanks for insights! Couldn't be happier with the top 10 order.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Good thread guys, I'll post final order later - if someone has time to do it then PM me please.

The other discussion thread is open if you want to continue the debate!

EDIT: See here for final order