Reloading in GOTMs

[ainwood]

I just took the jumping ball*, in pointing out this ...
it's the most easy way to cheat and it's strange that no one mentioned it in over 150 posts.

As DaviddesJ said - pointing out ways to cheat is to be discouraged.

And not to enter into a discussion about ways of cheating (and I will reserve the right to delete any posts that do describe ways fo cheating), but people should remember that any ways of cheating that they can think of; the HOF and GOTM staff have thought of as well. And probably worked on ways to detect it.

Can you be really, really sure that its foolproof?

 

[BLubmuz]

The reason why i did NOT posted this is the one DaviddesJ mentioned.

After a post, i just took the ball... i can have avoided to do it, but i did, and Denniz's post deserves an answer, then i gave it.

Just to close this "querelle" ... yes, i'm really sure, but if you find useful to delete all posts about this question, i not only understand but i encourage you to do so, starting from the first row of #152 to this one included.

As i already posted, i own only one PC and anyway i'm not interested to creative or scientific ways to cheat.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

And, Ainwood, you're right to be hard against people which will try to cheat "scientifically", but you can't change the fact that the way i described it's impossible to detect.[/COLOR]

I can think of several ways that you could in principle arrange to detect someone replaying from the start on a separate machine (But no I'm not going to say what I think they are, for obvious reasons).

 

[bio_hazard]

Just a couple of points here-

The GOTM is more than accomodating to casual players. Anyone can download the start, cheat or replay as much as they want. You can even post your scores and game details in the spoiler threads for everyone to see. It seems more than acceptable for the staff to limit the rankings to games that meet certain criteria to ensure games from different players are comparable. If you are concerned about your scores counting and your ranking, then you should ask yourself if you are really a casual player.

And if reloads were allowed for 'casual' players, where exactly would you draw the line? Wherever you draw it, I guarantee there would be someone who still thinks that is too strict to make the game fun, and conversely, if your game were ranked next to theirs, you would probably feel cheated yourself that they abused the guidelines so much. Zero tolerance really seems to be the only way that makes sense, and I'm all for the staff clamping down.

Also, even if you assume there is a way to cheat undetected, that doesn't devalue the staff's efforts to limit this as much as possible. I don't hear anyone complaining that you can't jump into the world-builder?

 

[pigswill]

It ocurs to me that people who do cheat (and I am reasonably optimistic that its a small minority) aren't actually causing harm to the moderators (work yes, harm no) but the honest majority of the CFC community.
I can think of two main reasons for cheating: to score points off the moderators (good for the ego but not something you can brag about publicly) or to boost a score for bragging rights(again, good for the ego but not something you can brag about publicly).
All I can really say is: Get a Life.

 

[CliftonBazaar]

I do find it pretty strange that players can spend a lot of time getting to the end of a hard-fought GOTM, and then forget to save, though

I have a wife and 2 kids and the only time I can play is after they goto bed, so I start playing at 9-10pm and finish about midnight - I start work at 8am so I need to sleep. I sometimes make it onto these forum boards when I've get 10 minutes free during the day.
That late at night I can make some ridiculous mistakes from tiredness (usually I'm okay, but sometimes tiredness creeps in and I wish to 'just have one mroe turn').
Mistakes I have made from tiredness include
- Sending troops to wrong areas (I once sent a SoD onto a plains tile instead of attacking a city - it was wiped out the next turn as it had no defence bonuses)
- hitting the wrong button (I once hit 'load game' instead of 'save game')
- forgetting to move the autosaves into another folder before I started a differant game (I did this with the GOTM that was Immortal level - and no it wasn't submitted)
- replaying games and then realised that they were too familiar (I had loaded an autosave that I had previously finished)

 

[drkodos]

Well, until they can go and monitor completely who goes into spoiler threads and can "detect" who has read them while still playing an open event, this whole episode is like using a screen door on a submarine.

Where is the sense in replaying when one can merely open a thread and learn what they need to know without a "taint" on their game file?*

And, all this talk about honor system? Please. I guess that's why there is so much braggadoccio about how great is the anti-cheat detection system..... because the honor system is working so well.....

Also: Not using names sullies all user names because now everyone has become suspect and a cloud of guilty-until-proven-innocent hangs over the community. We would the user community take someone at their word if the staff does not?


So: If one is going to try to keep it on the DL, it seems that openly posting a public thread about it while simultaneously stating it is not an open issue is conflictual and does not neccessarilly yield the best results.


Just sayin.


BTW: I did not get a warning email. The email I received stated that my game(s) were unacceptable, but the staff did not feel it was a case of "habitual" cheating since the next game was "clean."



*Good excuse to grow the bureaucracy by creating a password that one gets after submitting their finished game. This password would be required to gain entry into the "spoiler" thread so that only people entitiled to view spoilers could do so. Once game submission date expires, thread is open to all. Of course, that puts the final stake in the "honor" system fantasy, but hey! It does allow the staff to do even more work and feel even more needed!

 

[DaviddesJ]

Also: Not using names sullies all user names because now everyone has become suspect and a cloud of guilty-until-proven-innocent hangs over the community.

No. It doesn't.

 

[ainwood]

We are not naming names because we want to give people the opportunity to change; rather than embarrass them and potentially drive them away from the competition. We see little benefit in publishing names. Only the staff know the numbers of people involved here - I don't see why there should be any "guilty until proven innocent" cloud; we're trying to 'move-on' with a cleaner competition.

As for not opening the spoilers until the game is closed and/or some password system; it is possible, and we have discussed it. At this point, we have not decided to do this.

 

[dmccarthy]

Getting a password for the spoiler threads (with your e-mail confirmation of submission) seems like an easy way to ensure only those complete are reading. This would also save the staff from monitoring for 'bad' posts in the spoiler thread. Once submissions are closed the thread could then have its password protection removed.

 

[bio_hazard]

Getting a password for the spoiler threads (with your e-mail confirmation of submission) seems like an easy way to ensure only those complete are reading. This would also save the staff from monitoring for 'bad' posts in the spoiler thread. Once submissions are closed the thread could then have its password protection removed.

Neat idea. Wonder if they could program an in-game event to give a password for the mid-game spoiler, say once the critical number of civs have been met, or on a certain date. Alternatively, I guess we could submit the game-in-progress to get the password over email.

I will say that there are some games I choose not to play (due to time constraints, difficulty level, etc), but I still enjoy surfing the spoilers. I guess it wouldn't be too hard to PM the staff for a password.

 

[Mutineer]

If you can PM for password that will remove purpouse of passwords in a first place.

you can allways read it after game finsihed.

 

[Lexad]

Unfortunately, all password- and server-based approaches (the latter is the neatest proposed so far) are beatable just by having 2 accounts. You could filter by IP though, but one can always go to a friend of his and try a test game before playing his own; also not all people have Inet access on their play machines.

 

[Mutineer]

I ammways wander, is it a cat by the name "Behemot"?

 

[bio_hazard]

If you can PM for password that will remove purpouse of passwords in a first place.

you can allways read it after game finsihed.

True, but they would know you looked (because you emailed them), and would immediately exclude your game if you chose to play and submit later. The multiple account issue would be harder to get around, but I believe that is against forum rules(?), not just GOTM, so getting caught doing that could get you banned from more than just the monthly competitions...

You're right though, it would be just as easy to have the spoiler threads open only to participants until the end of the month.

 

[Ribannah]

A password system would mean exclusion of the non-submitting players.

 

[Mutineer]

only untill the end of the round. more reason to submit

 

[Balbes]

About the only way they could prevent cheating by using multiple machines would be use something like a server with Pitboss on it to host the game. You would then only get to play once per CFC account.

Yes, this is correct. In the business of hacking and intrusion prevention, whoever controls the hardware is king. If the hacker has physical access to the system in question, each and every defense will be defeated. With GOTMs, as long as the game runs on the player's machine, the player can cheat and the game staff has absolutely no way of detecting it, unless the player/chater is ignorant or gets sloppy. So the best the staff can do is implement a less-than-perfect control method and hope that most of the cheaters are ignorant or sloppy. On the contrary, if the game runs on the staff's server, there is absolutely no way for a player to cheat, unless the staff is ignorant or sloppy.

 

[Lawrence]

A password system would mean exclusion of the non-submitting players.

Agreed.

Just a couple of points here-

The GOTM is more than accomodating to casual players. Anyone can download the start, cheat or replay as much as they want. You can even post your scores and game details in the spoiler threads for everyone to see. It seems more than acceptable for the staff to limit the rankings to games that meet certain criteria to ensure games from different players are comparable. If you are concerned about your scores counting and your ranking, then you should ask yourself if you are really a casual player.

And if reloads were allowed for 'casual' players, where exactly would you draw the line? Wherever you draw it, I guarantee there would be someone who still thinks that is too strict to make the game fun, and conversely, if your game were ranked next to theirs, you would probably feel cheated yourself that they abused the guidelines so much. Zero tolerance really seems to be the only way that makes sense, and I'm all for the staff clamping down.

Also, even if you assume there is a way to cheat undetected, that doesn't devalue the staff's efforts to limit this as much as possible. I don't hear anyone complaining that you can't jump into the world-builder?

My logic:
If a cheater smartly escaped our 'casual' detection (whatever it is for now) and get a good score/date, he/she will undoubtedly try to cheat better to get better scores/dates in the next games, that is human nature, the endless upward aspiration. And all these efforts will come to a point when he found out that by cheating, he can be close or better than the medal/award winners. Since he don't know what is the date that will win an award, and what is the score that will win a medal, he has two choices at the moment. The first one, try to play cleanly to win. In this way, we turn a cheater into a good guy. The second one, try to cheat as always and risk detection by the staff. If he chooses this way, we will have a pretty good chance to detect him and ban him from the GOTM.

I think the results are acceptable to the community in either case. And we get the benefits of including casual players into the GOTM and retaining our honor system.

 

[drkodos]

No. It doesn't.

Yes, it does. You cannot tell me how to feel or think, sir. Nor can a feeling or opinion be incorrect to begin with, sir.

I trust no one's scores now.

I think the results are acceptable to the community in either case. And we get the benefits of including casual players into the GOTM and retaining our honor system.

The honor system is a fantasy and I have never bought into it.

We are not naming names because we want to give people the opportunity to change; rather than embarrass them and potentially drive them away from the competition. We see little benefit in .

Embrassing people will get them to change faster than any other factor.

And, what is so wrong with being embarassed? Or having one embarasses you? So emblematic of what is wrong with a society that being oversensitive to people's feelings begets a situation where offending someone is now viewed as some type of criiminal activity.

Why spare the feelings of people that are "cheating?" That's just a silly and hollow capriciousness that is at best a window dressing to keep people's eye's away from staring too long at the man behind the curtain.

Lame arguments. And in the end, these "policies" have better chance of producing results opposite of those results the site claims to be aiming for. Less people will be playing, not more. Making things even more Byzantine will not encourage more players to participate.

Just the opposite results will be realized.