Reloading in GOTMs

[da_Vinci]

I would think the statement "don't abuse Autosaves or you might get excluded" would lead the average person to this conclusion.

While this point is valid, I have found that when dealing with groups of people, stating the obvious is often useful. So a specific recommendation or rule about not playing on after crashes until resolution of cause might avoid some headaches on all sides.

Regarding my warning, these things happen! It's just a warning, and there are players who got them who are playing entirely above board games and something is or appears just a bit suspicious. It is not a big deal.

This, I think is the crux of the entire controversy: a different perception initially of what a warning meant between mods and warning recipients.

To me, a warning ususally means either information to prevent a problem (warning labels on products), or "you are guilty but we are suspending punishment ... this time" (warning instead of ticket for traffic violation, warning in the context of workplace discipline, etc.). I initially took the warning to have the latter meaning. I think it is fair to say that the language of both the first post here and the warning was not ideal to convey the "not a big deal" weight of the warning.

And, my initial thought was that the warnings had been send after close human review of each case (when I thought there were not so many). But it now appears that the warnings were sent after more limited human review, based on automated review information. I am not criticizing that approach, just pointing out is was another area of misunderstanding.

So when posts began to appear describing warnings sent when it appeared players were really trying to behave in good faith within the rules, and with the sense (mistaken, but not unreasonable at the time) that the warnings were more serious, questions about false positives arose. I think this is essentially the genesis of the reaction here from some in the community saying "Whoa! What is going on here?"

My sense now is that there were a lot of "messy" games, and some that were frankly illegal. Illegal games got excluded, messy games got "advice", unfortunately described as a "warning". The fact that a mod also recieved "advice" does confirm that they are not an implicaition of guilt (we hope ).

With the warnings revealed to be of this nature, my concern about false positives disappears. I am convinced that the mods are careful about exclusion decisions and allow for an appeal. I think that this controversy pretty much evaporates once the initial misunderstanding over warnings is recognized and resolved.

dV

 

[grangerm]

That is not true. The opportunities to play over are increased with the number of saves, not with the number of loads.

That's ridiculous, how are you going to replay turns if you don't load?

We all should have autosave interval on 1, so we're all equally likely to have reloaded even if one person finishes in 1 session and one finishes in 30 sessions? Come on...

 

[AlanH]

I think that this controversy pretty much evaporates once the initial misunderstanding over warnings is recognized and resolved.

I think it evaporated several days ago for most of us ... but maybe you didn't bother reading my early posts in this thread re. the impact of warnings? Check out posts 52, 80 and 103, for example.

 

[Murky]

Prior to GoTMs I sometimes did reload but I found a easy way to break myself from it. Just use the HoF mod for every game except custom mod games. You can set it to save on exit then when you start you load the HoF mod save. Another benefit is that you can submit your game to the HoF database for recognition if you like. The HoF has zero tolerance for reloading so that too will help you break the habit of reloading.

With GoTMs, if you want to be successful without reloading you should play some practice games and plan your victory ahead of time.

 

[da_Vinci]

I think it evaporated several days ago for most of us ... but maybe you didn't bother reading my early posts in this thread re. the impact of warnings? Check out posts 52, 80 and 103, for example.

@ AlanH: I am still 0 for many in my attempts to write a conciliatory post that succeeds in your recognizing it as such. I expected that you would accept my surrender more gracefully...

Read all of the posts all along, and I would say the impact of warnings was not really clarified until ainwoods #78, and really crystalized with civ_steve's # 110 saying he got a warning too. My posts after # 78 were to clarify some dos and don'ts questions, and the statistics jousting with DaviddesJ (which was not intended to be criticism of staff but a discusson of the theory of these things - sorry if that was misinterpreted).

My most recent post was an attempt to sum it up from both sides (as I undertand it) with the idea that perhaps that would help put this to bed.

dV

 

[Markus5]

I've found this discussion interesting, but I'd sure like to post a spoiler and read other spoilers. Any idea when the first spoiler thread will be started? I've finished the game, and I sure like to have the final spoiler thread opened, too. But, that's just me.

 

[ainwood]

Later today - I'm catching-up on e-mails at the moment....

 

[superslug]

Just use the HoF mod for every game except custom mod games. You can set it to save on exit then when you start you load the HoF mod save. Another benefit is that you can submit your game to the HoF database for recognition if you like.

Some players already do that! I suspect you're among them. All submissions to the HOF are welcome, regardless of supposed quality, so long as they meet the rules. So anyone should feel free to send us their between-GOTM games.

The HoF has zero tolerance for reloading so that too will help you break the habit of reloading.

Actually, I like to think of us as having a negative tolerance for reloading. Zero is far too merciful.

 

[GoodGame]

Stupid question:

If I start a GOTM from scratch (from the downloaded official file), is that "reloading" if I've already played it from a previous download, but haven't submitted it?

 

[Mutineer]

yes it is.

 

[civ_steve]

Stupid question:

If I start a GOTM from scratch (from the downloaded official file), is that "reloading" if I've already played it from a previous download, but haven't submitted it?

Don't you think a player who did this would have an unfair advantage replaying from scratch a game they'd already played? Compared to other players who load the initial save once and play turn by turn until completed. Of course it's 'reloading'!

 

[Lawrence]

Don't you think a player who did this would have an unfair advantage replaying from scratch a game they'd already played? Compared to other players who load the initial save once and play turn by turn until completed. Of course it's 'reloading'!

That question means: you can never detect GOTM cheating (replaying) from those who have two computers.

Personally, I don't like applying HOF ethics to GOTM. A lot of people play GOTM casually, with little desire to improve their skills, while I can't see any point playing a HOF gauntlet without seeking the best result. So IMHO, zero tolerance or the so-called 'negative tolerance' is not a good choice for GOTM. Why a casual player wouldn't be allowed to reload only once in an entire game, when they just loaded a savegame from one week ago and made a careless decision just because they didn't take enough notes to record every TODOs last week? Well, that was what I did in GOTM 12. But I am not complaining for myself. Since I was shooting for an award, I should play fair competition without any cheating. But how about a casual player? Are you asking everybody to take notes every turn and triple-check everything they did so that they would not make any silly mistake? Is this too serious for only a game?

So, my current take for the reloading problem: Allow any game without severe reloading problem (replaying from the start, reload a turn many times to beat the odds, I know you can detect this! ). But only perfectly 'clean' games are eligible for awards and medals. Since I cannot see any point for someone cheating to get nothing, I think this is a workable approach for GOTM.

 

[BLubmuz]

you can never detect GOTM cheating (replaying) from those who have two computers.

I was thinking to post this, then i agree with Lawrence ... people with more than one PC can easily cheat.

IMHO he has some more good points in his post, but i know it's very difficult to draw a line, then i suppose it's better the "no reloading" rule.

 

[Ribannah]

Note also that playing over is not the only way to cheat. There was a funny case in the GOTM3 where someone managed to get like 4 settlers from huts in no-time, in spite of the fact that there were supposed to be only 3 huts on the starting island and warriors simply cannot move around that fast.
He still didn't fare too well, I believe.

 

[Denniz]

That question means: you can never detect GOTM cheating (replaying) from those who have two computers.

I was thinking to post this, then i agree with Lawrence ... people with more than one PC can easily cheat.

If you are going to make assumptions, I think it would be wise to assume anything against the rules can be detected. That is the whole point of not revealing what means of detection exist. You don't *know*, so why assume the worst? It just leads to the rationalization that if someone else can theoretically get away with something then there is no reason someone else shouldn't do it too.

So, my current take for the reloading problem: Allow any game without severe reloading problem (replaying from the start, reload a turn many times to beat the odds, I know you can detect this! ). But only perfectly 'clean' games are eligible for awards and medals. Since I cannot see any point for someone cheating to get nothing, I think this is a workable approach for GOTM.

The only reason to submit is to win a metal and/or to see your name in the rankings. I don't think is okay for someone to have a higher ranking than me if they reloaded/replayed. Casual players who want to reload for the sake of fun don't need to submit.

 

[BLubmuz]

@ Denniz
I'm not usual to assume something it's not evident:
of course i don't know how HOf works to let you detect cheating, but i can be SURE *absolutely* that if a player starts a game on PC "A", then he starts the same game on PC "B", and plays this last game with no reloading, but with prior knowledge of the map and so on, no one on Earth can detect this.

Just to point out that this is against the honour system and the rules, but that can be done.

BTW i do NOT own more than one PC with Civ installed, and i can assure you i'm not a PC novice.

 

[Murky]

@ Denniz
I'm not usual to assume something it's not evident:
of course i don't know how HOf works to let you detect cheating, but i can be SURE *absolutely* that if a player starts a game on PC "A", then he starts the same game on PC "B", and plays this last game with no reloading, but with prior knowledge of the map and so on, no one on Earth can detect this.

Just to point out that this is against the honour system and the rules, but that can be done.

BTW i do NOT own more than one PC with Civ installed, and i can assure you i'm not a PC novice.

I suppose this could happen but most people probably wouldn't go that far.

About the only way they could prevent cheating by using multiple machines would be use something like a server with Pitboss on it to host the game. You would then only get to play once per CFC account. It would also be important not to allow any spoilers until after the submission due date. Not sure how practical that would be.

 

[ainwood]

Please be advised that anyone who does want to just find more inventive ways to cheat is takig a big risk.

We are drawing our line in the sand. If we ever found that someone had gone to extreme lengths to cheat and hide it, if we detected it, this would go well beyond any rationalisations that people may use to justify replaying. This would result in that player being banned completely and permanently from the GOTM.

 

[BLubmuz]

I just took the jumping ball*, in pointing out this ...
it's the most easy way to cheat and it's strange that no one mentioned it in over 150 posts.

And, Ainwood, you're right to be hard against people which will try to cheat "scientifically", but you can't change the fact that the way i described it's impossible to detect.

As a consolation, we can say that it's a big advantage, but prior knowledge of the map and resources it's often not sufficient to win a game or an award.

*free translation of an italian saying

 

[DaviddesJ]

it's the most easy way to cheat and it's strange that no one mentioned it in over 150 posts.

It's not strange. Most people don't think that the purpose of the GOTM forums is to point out how to cheat.