Rep/US and Statue of Liberty

[Paxel]

Hello,
I sticked to HR for a while and now I'm able to switch to Representation or Universal Suffrage. I got emancipation yet.

Considering my economy, a good number of village/towns and not many specialists I calculated that Rep and US are currently just equal. Usually I would prefer U.S. but ...
in 2 turns I will get the Statue of Liberty, which means a free specialist for every city.

What would you do? e.g. should the Statue modify the strategy?

I just researched physics, I'm the tech leader yet. I'm planning a space race but I'm also building a small army, otherwise I know that someone will attack me. Vanilla/Monarch.

 

[shlks]

I honestly don't think we can properly evaluate that without looking at your game.

You can provide us a save by using the paperclip feature when posting...

Personally I'm a fan of US later in the game, but that is because I play larger maps and only focus my specialists in one GP farm. The way I see it Rep. and US provide entirely different things, happiness and research versus various production bonuses. It sounds like either way you have the game in hand.

 

[Doshin]

Think of it this way. Representation = +6 for each city that runs a Specialist with the SoL (a Scientist = +6 ; a Merchant = +3 ,+3 , etc.)

If you have the SoL and run Mercantilism, this translates to +12 per city before modifiers (Libraries, Markets, etc.). Mercantilism limits your trade routes, but it also denies them to the AI.

Count the number of towns that you own and ask yourself whether the total hammer boost from Democracy is worth the trade-off in commerce. Remember that you can also recuperate some hammers by running Engineer specialists in towns with a forge (+2 , +3 ).

My guess is that, if you have a large empire, Representation is the way to go.

 

[elmurcis]

I would say - if you don't need to hurry with gold anything (all cities already big enough and no more free land to take), than Representation..

 

[noto2]

I think it's quite simple, actually. If you have generated a lot of great people this game and settled them and these settled great people generate the majority of your science output, then go with rep. If you have far more farms than cottages in your empire and specialists generate the majority of your gold/science output, then go with rep. On the other hand, if you have a lot of cottages/towns in your empire and these are generating the majority of your gold/beakers, then go with US.

 

[Thrar]

Think of it this way. Representation = +6 for each city that runs a Specialist with the SoL (a Scientist = +6 ; a Merchant = +3 ,+3 , etc.)

If you have the SoL and run Mercantilism, this translates to +12 per city before modifiers (Libraries, Markets, etc.).

How do you get to +6 per specialist from Rep? All it does is add +3 to each specialist. If I'm not missing anything, in your example with SoL and Merc, Rep would add a total of +6 to each city, not +12 .


If you're only running the free SoL specialist in most cities, US is a pretty clear winner over Rep imo. The ability to rushbuy and the extra hammers can be leveraged into far more than 3 per city.
With SoL and Merc but not running a GP-based economy I'd still prefer US, mostly for the ability to rush buy and the long term perspective. If you don't have a lot of towns or near-towns and don't want to run Emancipation, I could see how Rep can make sense in this scenario too.

Finally, if you're running a specialist-based economy, go for Rep and possibly transition into US/FS later.

 

[MrCynical]

How do you get to +6 per specialist from Rep? All it does is add +3 to each specialist. If I'm not missing anything, in your example with SoL and Merc, Rep would add a total of +6 to each city, not +12 .

Yes, Doshin seems to have forgotten that the specialist will generate 3 gold/science even without Rep. A full set of building modifiers (Library/university/observatory/lab) would give +100% for an extra 6 science per specialist overall, but that's not really equivalent to 6 commerce. Plus you're not going to have all those buildings in all your cities at this stage of the game.

So you're looking at +3 for SoL, and +6 for SoL and Merc, when running representation. Normally I do prefer Rep over US for the extra science, but I tend to run more specialists than just the free ones. Once you have a fair number of towns US is more attractive (especially for a golden age when you're getting +2 hammers from all those grassland cottages). Being able to rush buy is so useful I tend to use US more in the later stages of the game. Particularly if you're Spiritual or get Cristo Redentor you can switch between these two easily depending whether you need to rush buy at that moment.

 

[Doshin]

How do you get to +6 per specialist from Rep? All it does is add +3 to each specialist. If I'm not missing anything, in your example with SoL and Merc, Rep would add a total of +6 to each city, not +12 .


If you're only running the free SoL specialist in most cities, US is a pretty clear winner over Rep imo. The ability to rushbuy and the extra hammers can be leveraged into far more than 3 per city.
With SoL and Merc but not running a GP-based economy I'd still prefer US, mostly for the ability to rush buy and the long term perspective. If you don't have a lot of towns or near-towns and don't want to run Emancipation, I could see how Rep can make sense in this scenario too.

Finally, if you're running a specialist-based economy, go for Rep and possibly transition into US/FS later.

I phrased it a little crudely for the sake of simplicity. I might have been misleading. Basically:

SoL = 3
SoL + Rep = 3 3
SoL & Mercantilism = 6
SoL & Mercantilism + Rep = 6 6

In my original post I used the commerce symbol as a catch-all symbol for , , and . If you want more money, run a Merchant. If you want to research more quickly, run a Scientist. You could, I suppose, also argue that more from specialists effectively equates to more because you can research a tech with the slider at a lower point (e.g. Fission sans Rep. takes 8 turns at 100%, Fission with Rep. takes 8 turns at 80%, so you're saving money).

All of the above, of course, gets put through the various building modifiers. The AI loves to build Observatories, Markets, Banks, and Grocers, and these can all be captured. You should have Libraries in most of your established towns.

Universal Suffrage can be very powerful. The thing is, you usually have fewer towns than you'd think, so the production boost isn't all that. I've nothing bad to say about rush buying though. Especially if you've built the Kremlin

 

[lindsay40k]

I find Rep is mainly useful in earlier eras, when you've got it through Pyramids. Later on, when you've got loads of happiness from buildings and resources, I'd rather have the 'rush buy' option over a few cities with extra happiness. Plus, US prods you towards getting Towns developed, and getting developed towns seems to work better in the post-Renaissance world than a Specialist Economy. I find a late game SE stalls if it's not Sushi-powered, even with SoL.

 

[Thrar]

You can get Constitution relatively early, a fair bit before Democracy. Lib Nationalism and tech Consti or even lib it directly if the race is not that tight. You can do that without the whole lower tech branch, just get to CS, bulb Phil and/or Edu and tech straight for Rep. For an SE, that's a huge boost at that time.
In many cases I'd still transition into cottages later on, but with a timely Rep, an extended SE can be very strong play given a bit of food.

It's practically impossible to beeline Democracy like that (requiring PP which in turn requires Machinery), plus it's a pretty expensive tech on it's own.

 

[noto2]

I don't understand why anyone would transition from a SE to a CE. I pick one and stick with it throughout the game. A CE requires one to place tons of cottages early. With a SE there are many many options to boost it in the late game (biology, enviro, industrial parks, etc). I seriously doubt anyone could improve their efficiency by switching from one to the other throughout the game. I would bet money that sticking with one throughout the game is always the better option.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

^ disagree with noto2, above.

First most economies are a hybrid, maintaining varied economic inputs is sustainable throughout the game SE/CE aren't mutually exclusive.
As to gradually increasing effectiveness, that metric should be applied equally to both specializations of economies. What the SE gains in effectiveness (Biology mainly) is mere necessity, while the raw numbers still favor the CE (7 1 against 6 ). The Kremlin makes the CE very powerful late game.
The advent of Emancipation (really its degree of adoption) puts a squeeze on the efficiency of an SE, and the bonus to town growth rate suggests a transition period.

 

[noto2]

Yes, if you're running a hybrid economy with all inputs: cottages, bulbs, settled GP, etc, then I can see switching around from REP to US. But if I start settling GP in the early game and I'm playing an IND or PHI leader, I might plan on running a SE and so I will specialize. I might have 1 city cottage spammed, and that is it. That could be the bureaucracy boosted capital and science city. Sometimes I won't use cottages at all. With biology, the SE can almost match the CE in terms of tiles, but when you add in the settled GP the SE wins in this case, and so I stick with REP, Bur, etc. I might leave caste depending on the amount of emancipation penalty, but leaving caste is not a big deal because I have buildings for specialist slots late game.
On the other hand, if I'm not planning on running REP later in the game I won't really settle GP. I may settle 1 or 2 and that's it. Therefore there is absolutely no need to use REP at any point in the game, HR or US would always be better in that case. In this case I would use US/FS later in the game to power my cottage economy.
I don't see how transitioning from REP to US/FS makes any sense. If you have tons of settled GP AND you have tons of towns then running REP makes your towns suffer and running US/FS makes your settled GP suffer. It's inefficient. You would have been better off using those GP for bulbs or golden ages, there was no point in settling them, or you would have been better off not building as many cottages.