Replay #3 Coming closer Wastin :D

[Seraiel]

Probably he means overall. You said 200h game, so that's 200 hours staring at the screen... unless you can micromanage your cities without even looking?

That's not what I understand with "staring at the screen", microing the cities is more "interacting with the game". Staring at the screen sounds passive for me. I guess he just has a really slow PC, not many machines can handle Huge with BUFFY, even less humans can handle Huge and Marathon, TMIT also complained once about time between turns

 

[Seraiel]

And in good old tradition, I forgot to attach the Savegame -.- ^^

 

[Keilah]

very well played so far, nice writeup too

 

[vranasm]

staring at screen was meant in the sense I wrote it... in the huge game I played I could watch for 40 secs each turn on TV while the game did something (in the later stages, in the beginning it was quicker...like only 10-15 secs)...

I have amd phenom 620 (quad core), AMD 6850, 6GB RAM (so typical gamers machine) sooo.... it's really annoying. Even on normal in modern era the turns take long (especially if you go Space and you need to drag out the game)

________________________

As for the game... I was thinking about something...

would it be more cost effective to get sailing instead of roading with workers all around? Each road on marathon costs like 5 turns (or more? can't remember now), so maybe sailing would be better due to distances... that's just a question not sure with the answer here.

Sometimes I get sailing just because it brings good commerce even from AI's quicker without roading if the distances are not good... here you have spread civilization over "half the map for standard size"

edit:

just to clarify something, my typical game lasts something between 3 and 4 hours and is around 200 turns played so if the turns take 20 secs on average then "staring on screen" took 4000 secs ~1h 15 mins out of 4 hours...that's 25% of gametime... not good

on huge it would be probably worse.

 

[Seraiel]

very well played so far, nice writeup too

TY

staring at screen was meant in the sense I wrote it... in the huge game I played I could watch for 40 secs each turn on TV while the game did something (in the later stages, in the beginning it was quicker...like only 10-15 secs)...

I have amd phenom 620 (quad core), AMD 6850, 6GB RAM (so typical gamers machine) sooo.... it's really annoying. Even on normal in modern era the turns take long (especially if you go Space and you need to drag out the game)

I actually don't stop the time my PC takes to calculate AI moves, but it doesn't "feel" that long like you say. I will take the time now, 40s really sounds too long for me:

[...]

I just stopped the time from the 3rd last turn to the 2nd last turn, you might wanna check your PC, it took 13s. Also took 3 turns from the last 100 turns in continuation, all between 10 and 15s.

My machine is a DELL XPS 1730M Laptop, 4 GB of Ram, 2x NVIDIA 8800 GTX with each 510 MB Memory, 2x 250 GB HD non SD. It's 3y old and a Laptop, your PC should be a lot faster.

________________________

As for the game... I was thinking about something...

would it be more cost effective to get sailing instead of roading with workers all around? Each road on marathon costs like 5 turns (or more? can't remember now), so maybe sailing would be better due to distances... that's just a question not sure with the answer here.

Sometimes I get sailing just because it brings good commerce even from AI's quicker without roading if the distances are not good... here you have spread civilization over "half the map for standard size"

I tested this:

I took the Save where I got Writing, oracled Sailing, and dealed for open Borders with all Civs. Benefit was +10 , so it'd take 60 turns for Sailing to pay back. I always get Writing after T100 and before T150 I have Math + anything to trade for Alpha, so it just isn't worth it.

It would help spread Religion greatly though, so I will think about it in future games where I have better land than in this round. The possibility to start the GLH earlier is also worth a lot, as I miss it in 10-15% of my rounds. For HoF this means, I can throw away 10-15% of my games, because without the GLH, playing B&S for points just isn't worth it usually.

Thx for the idea!

edit:

just to clarify something, my typical game lasts something between 3 and 4 hours and is around 200 turns played so if the turns take 20 secs on average then "staring on screen" took 4000 secs ~1h 15 mins out of 4 hours...that's 25% of gametime... not good

on huge it would be probably worse.

On Huge, you have more cities to micro, so your turns take longer. Therefor the time between turns isn't so bad. Anyhow, even 20s are long, see above.

Greetz, Seraiel

 

[Kid R]

Very good writeup I've never got into tying for HOFscores but you are showing it can be an interesting challenge.

In the game so far how close have you come to quitting it as not possible to get a big score? At the current position were you hopeful/not hopeful/don't know?

It does look like a huge amount of superb land available to the north now if you can REX it without too many distractions.

 

[Seraiel]

Very good writeup I've never got into trying for HOFscores but you are showing it can be an interesting challenge.

In the game so far how close have you come to quitting it as not possible to get a big score? At the current position were you hopeful/not hopeful/don't know?

It does look like a huge amount of superb land available to the north now if you can REX it without too many distractions.

Thx

I'm still very new to Civ, I play it for less than half a year now, so I have little problems with motivation. I'm also very new to playing strategy games, I have played the MoO series completely and the full Campaign of Warcraft and Starcraft, but I'm really still a lot of a Noob. Playing further gives me the possibility to learn, and Wastin said to me that he oracles Currency usually before T150, so I play every round in which I'm able to achieve that.
These Writeups with all your comments help me to analyze my faults and also remember what I was doing right, this will give me routine for my next games. I have a lot of that already with the Checker-Rush, also because VirusMonsters Guide is really really good, but I still lack a lot of experience with the follow-up.
Therefor: I'm always hopeful, and as long as I get better, I'm gonna be playing My MMORPG-type was "60% Achiever / 40% Killer", perhaps that says something about my personality. What I'm trying to achieve now, is one of the most difficult things I've ever done, I don't expect to make it soon, but I know, there is always a chance, and if I learn to not crash & burn anymore, that chance is mine

In the North, there is almost 100% jungle, and mostly weak -ressources, like Rice, Bananas or even only Sugar or Spices. That's not really superb to me. Jungle-land takes forever to be improved, of course, it's nice once the Jungles are removed because it's all Grassland, but during my rounds on Deity and from reading others posts I've learned, that one needs cities that are good immediately, not someday!

You'll see how I'm able to rex very soon, as I'm gonna start writing on the next part within the hour Also, plz don't forget, that this is a Huge B&S map with low Sealvl! It looks, as if there is really much land to be settled, but 10-20 cities aren't that much on a map of that size. I can spoil as much, that in the end of the game, I'm gonna have 115 cities! Remember that I wrote, that I only got 3% of the land. To be exact, this is rounded, I only have 2.7% of the land, I am #1 with that, but not by far, Viccy got as much as 2%!

Also, there are some big challenges still to come As another Spoiler to keep you interessted aswell as maybe astonished, I'll post this Screen of a date I don't tell Also, one of the biggest problems with these Settings is Diplomacy



So make sure to keep following

BRB, Sera

 

[Keilah]

link to your screenshot doesn't work

I applaud your work ethic and reaching for a lofty goal. I'm assuming you're still pretty young, to have this much spare time? Take my word for it, if you can apply that effort to any skill that will earn $$, you'll be more financially successful than 90% of your peers. And if I'm right and you're a teenager, real soon you're going to NEED to put this skill of yours to work.

 

[Seraiel]

Ok, so I told you already, that the Checker-Rush was complete.

But is war with Checkers really over? One can use them for each enemy that doesn't has access to Strategic Ressources. You know from Roosevelt in the east already, that he has, but has Darius them also? He sits in the Jungle, so chances are good, and he has already taken a city site I'd really have liked to have, take a look at his land:

Spoiler :

Now this is land, I'd really like to have. All cities have double Food, his Capital seems to have a lot production capacity with at least double Food , 3 scripted hills and Cows! I'm still really looking for a place for the HE, with at least double Food and 4-5 hills, and the fact that the Capital also has so many forrests makes it extremely yummy.

I have open Borders with everyone now, and of course, I planned for the possibility to clear out Darius. He would be an easy target as the cities don't lie on hills, but in 2100 BC one of my Checkers regrattably finds this:



Immortals... Ok, so it really means, transmission into peaceful Rex. Gladly, my first Settler has already completed 2 turns earlier XD It's time to have a look at the land again and some cities that I've planned:

Spoiler :

This is the city-grid I've layed. You can already see, that I've taken the 1st Settler to settle the Marble with Tiwanktu. I always settle Marble and Stone asap, because I really wanna get some World Wonders. After Oracle Currency I usually continue with Aesthetics, not only because it's great TG, but also because the Wonders are really worth their Cost usually. The Parthenon gives at least 1.5 - 2 more GPs with my playstyle, the SoZ is cheap and cripples the production of the enemy and makes them much more likely to capitulate. The Mids give a lot of Beakers through running Specialists with REP early on and the created by REP is definately better than the one from HR, in mid-game PS + Forges allow for some serious military buildup, and in lategame, they allow to run US when having Kremlin without having to research Democracy, so they're usually also really worth the Hammers .

I don't wanna overrate them, Mids are good, Parthenon is good, SoZ, the GL is good. Really awesome though and absolutely necessary for my playstyle though is the MoM and the TM, and those two also rely on Marble with so few trees, so I wanted to secure that city-site first.

Other than that, I've planned cities as good as I think is possible. I planned them by overall amount of Food , I wanna have to build no Farms if possible, so where there is Food , there is a city. I use Overlap perhaps not as much as others, perhaps too little. After having played the round and again having learend a lot, I think the city-placement is decent, but definately far from perfect. Too little overlap is the main thing I think, one must simply internalize, that average cities only have to have about 5 tiles to work, it takes until Sushi till they grow bigger. HC is good for vertical developement, so I tried to keep that in mind, and there is also another point that has to be taken into account: Cities have to block land and ressources, but Settlers are expensive and limited, so a city that can grow really large and blocks more land is better than to many cities on less ground, or not?
Probably not (!) because the greater distance also means more maintenance! Maybe some of you can help me put up good rules for planning cities, these are the rules that I have internalized after having played the round:

• Use overlap as much as possible!
• Don't found cities that are too far away, maintenance will kill you!
• Don't found jungle-cities until there is no more land that can be settled!
• Where there is food, there can be a city.
• Don't feel to secure to get the land you want, AI settles very fast on Deity and they settle behind ones borders very early. In contrary to that, it takes Aeons to flip a city with Culture, actually Culture-flipped cities don't give back anything, as before that, they normally loose all tiles and shrink to Size 1. It's a little bit different with the huge Culture from Sushi, then one can really flip a lot good cities, but without it, it's near to impossible.
• Don't be greedy. 5+ hills for a HE-City? I must have been spoiled, 3 are definately enough to live with!
• Don't stick to rigid concepts, don't try to make everything perfect in sometime, take the short-time advantages. A city that is size 3 and has double , some hills and a granary is better for the HE than a city that isn't even founded yet! The first city will have produced so many troops by that time the 2nd even starts with it! You'll have 1-2 peacevassals 300-500y earlier than you'd otherwise have!!!
• Trust the blue circles. Not because they're perfect, but mostly because AI will found cities that take away your ressources, so plan for the inner ring!
• Fresh Water can be worth a lot in Sushi-Games (special rule) .
• Don't overrate Luxury-Ressources, once you've reached Currency! Food is what counts, Hammers are what counts! Hammers are better than Commerce because one can build units with them, units equal land and peace-vassals, land + peace-vassals again equal power and free research!
• Always found cities in order of value! Value is rated very simple: Food > Hammers > Commerce and if one wants to block land, see if you can get the necessary Borderpops to close up the Borders soon, or settle more cities in between!

I'm sure you can help me and others to find some more, and take the 2120 BC Savegame from the post before, to do what I do now if you want / can / have the time for what I do now: Redo it! So here is, how I would found cities now, you'll notice the difference:

Spoiler :

The green cities are the ones which are ment to block land. Green Spices has Forrests that can be chopped, that's why a Borderpop could be achieved fast. City placement bears that in mind now.

Blue are the cities, that are planned to be founded later on, after the the blocking with green is achieved, and black is just a filler-city to work some Cottages for the Capital.

Main things are, that the empire is a lot more compact now, which would have significantly reduced maintenance, and I find that some cities have slightly better positions now. But again, what I try to achieve cannot be done, putting up a complete plan for settling and then sticking to it. It shall just be taken as what I planned to do, and it took me not less then some hours because I'm still so unexperienced with it.

Let's see what happened next and keep the story interesting / exciting I tell you, it'll get so ugly, you won't believe it XD .


The Big Moment:



As you see, this happens in T145 which is the year 2050 BC, so I'm still on schedule

With this, the Chain-Reaction starts:

Commerce rises from 117 to 124 (this is yet relatively moderate)

I trade Math against Sailing + BW with Sabrina:



Commerce goes rises from 124 to 138!!!

Workers are already waiting near Bombay, to chop 4 Forrests. Plan is to 2pop-whip the GLH and after that complete it with the timed chops 9 turns from now onwards!



I'm finally able to make peace with Suleimann, all he wanted were some 10g in addition

I wreck the Commerce again by switchen the city-worked tiles, as I don't need that many Commerce right now, what I need is Production so I pump out more Settlers / Workers and Granaries a.s.o. !

I revolutionize to Slavery immediately, the time is just right for that after Oracle and before GLH now.

Mansa is still 5 turns away from Math, so I can still trade something for it from him. He's got Masonry, but I need some money to make the trade. Without Currency all this would be impossible.
I demand 80g from Frederick. I plan on eliminating him later, so I don't mind about diplomatic issues with him.



I trade the rest of Math + 205 against Masonry with MM:



Now I got everything I need for the GLH and it's still 2050! If everything develops as planned, I will have GLH in 1960 (9 turns / Chop) ! That is so early, I will have nearly 100% of Chance getting it! It's good that MM doesn't mind to trade away anything, and best of all, he's free again to tech further for me, and he continues with: Calendar Perfect, so at last, things develop well for me :>

I still don't have Alpha and some backup techs like The Wheel and Pottery till now, so I whip some Checkers, as I get more from the that cannot be converted into OF, as I hope to trade Masonry + with Sabrina for Pottery.


2020 BC, I've found a great Site for my HE-City. Have a look:



Double Food and 7 green Hills as a minimum? Now you will ask yourself, where did I find this city, and be careful, to not die from laughing

Spoiler :

I really thought at that time, that It would better to take this Spot, as it's utterly awesome for the HE-City! *LOL* I really believed, that I could develop the city fast enough that it would be a good idea, I actually don't know what I was thinking at that time XD . Just because it has 4 more hills, I want to prefer it over an excellent HE-Site like Berlin, which has quadruple Food, one of which are Pigs which even could be mined, which is coastal so it could get MOAI too which is a very strong combo as I think, and most of all, Berlin already exists and is Size 4! *ROFL*

Now I gave you a real hard laugh hopefully, but that just shows, that I'm really still a total N00b XD See in the following parts, how this descision will develop further, it's the best comedy of the whole story *LOL* .


2010 BC, Roosevelt gets Alpha. I'm not able to trade it directly from him, as Math + Meditation + possibly 250 are not enough for him. I put 1 turn of Research into Alpha, which only is 100 and next turn...



The trade is no problem. By this I learned, that it's always better to put some Research onesself into sth. then to trade for money only!

Same turn I trade Mysticism, Meditation and Priesthood around for as much money as possible, and get all Backup-Techs, including IW aswell as 450 !


Here are some Screens from the end of 1990 BC:



You see the Jump after Oracle in Score (mainly the Techs), Gold (the ability to trade for it), Goods produced (switching tiles because of better economy with Currency) and Power. In Food, I'm so far away with all the conquered Capital Sites, it's not even funny. The drop in Goods produced comes from the Whips after having switched to Slavery, mainly Granaries in all cities.



Basically, I got a Tech-Lead now, except for Viccy who already has HBR + Aesthetics? O_O That is very very unusual for an AI. I continue Research with Polytheism, as I want to be able to trade for Monotheism to get OR. AI is always not willing to trade Poly because of Parthenon, but it will trade Mono. With the money gained from the Crap-Trades, this is easy.

Another thing are the Ressource-Trades with Currency and Sailing. As I'm now connected to the various Trade-Networks, I trade Ressources with everyone possible, as I want to get that diplomatic bonus asap!


1980, I 2pop-whip the Lighthouse in Bombay: 1970 all Chops complete in the same turn, and 1960 is the last big Moment of this Episode:



Math concludes, that the GLH alone hightens the total Commerce by 20! That is almost 20% with working production tiles atm and having no Cottages yet, so really another very very big step for the round.

-----------

I'm tired now, this was a very long post, cannot write anymore, have to sleep. Didn't get really far, but this was a one of the most important parts after the Checker-Rush. I hope you still liked it, though you can probably feel by my writing how tired I'm.

If you have Questions, I'll be glad to answer them, if you have critique, go for it. I hope, that at last, it was still interessting, and that you got an insight on how a HoF game can develop and found it at least a little bit exciting and helpful and not only longish.

Next time, I'll fasten up the tempo a lot, and this time, I won't forget the Save XD

Till then, cya,

Seraiel

 

[civvver]

I'm starting to understand these hof games more now. I never realized how clustered the starts are. I typically play huge maps, hemispheres or terra with starts on both continents (possible with a custom script) with low/med sea levels. My closest neighbor is often 20-30 tiles away, not the ~10 in this game. Makes a gigantic difference when rushing, especially with "checkers." I always wondered how expansion this fast was possible and now I get it.

 

[Seraiel]

link to your screenshot doesn't work

I applaud your work ethic and reaching for a lofty goal. I'm assuming you're still pretty young, to have this much spare time? Take my word for it, if you can apply that effort to any skill that will earn $$, you'll be more financially successful than 90% of your peers. And if I'm right and you're a teenager, real soon you're going to NEED to put this skill of yours to work.

I smiled when I read this and have to say thx again

I'm "a little" older than you think I am, I've left school a long time ago already, but "joined it again" with studying human Medicine So there you have the reason why I have so much time, stuying really leaves one with a lot of that, if one doesn't have the aim to finish as fast a possible . Also you'll know now, that I don't care about money at all, otherwise, I would have taken a total different direction and would study something else, Doctors are paid really badly in Germany.

But I do always achieve success with what I try and always reach high, this is, to keep me interessted in something, and Civ4 is one of the hardest challenges I found after various others, I took just for my own fun in my life. It's actually harder than my studies tbh, and that's the reason, why it interessts me so much atm.

If you wanna understand the studies of human medicine, just imagine that you learn stuff, any students in the age of 14-16 would understand easily, problem is only, it's 10* times more of it, so it's not really difficult, just a lot of work

I'm starting to understand these hof games more now. I never realized how clustered the starts are. I typically play huge maps, hemispheres or terra with starts on both continents (possible with a custom script) with low/med sea levels. My closest neighbor is often 20-30 tiles away, not the ~10 in this game. Makes a gigantic difference when rushing, especially with "checkers." I always wondered how expansion this fast was possible and now I get it.

It's a good thing, if I could bring the HoF-Style a little closer to you.

Next part going online today


Btw.: I was wondering, why nobobdy except you has yet commented on the last part of the Replay, at least the HE-City should have really been good for some

Seraiel

 

[Seraiel]

Ok, new day, new energy, next part of the Writeup!


I've left you with yesterday with the Save of 1960 BC and the most important parts of the Writeup till then. I still though haven't come to a lot of things I've wanted, so I will make up for that now. Here is an overview of the Incan Empire at 1960 BC, especially for those of you, who don't use / have BUFFY, but still want to follow the Story as close as possible.

The cities & the plan on how to use them in near and middle future:

Spoiler :

Cuzco:



This is the Capital of the Incan Empire. Even though only being Size 3, it put's out a lot of due to the fact that Incans are FIN, it having 2 times of Gems and me having constructed the GLH and it being coastal. You notice, that I prioritized the Granary of course as the first building, and I've 2pop-whipped it with some OF into a Library. I plan to make this city the Buro Capital, even though Kyoto may be better for that in long time, but in short time, Cuzco will be unbeatable for that purpose. In addition, Kyoto has so much Food, that it can serve as a Settler-pump, so I decide to let Cuzco grow. The FPs have already been improved, next are the Cows and it's gonna get Lighthouse for that sweet lake of it's soon.


Kyoto:



This is Kyoto, the Settler-Pump #1. It has a lot of so it'll be great for that purpose, and, with the River, it has potential to put out a lot of later. Plan is to improve the Pigs and the Corn, 2pop-whip a Granary at Size 4, then let it again grow to Size 4 and pump out Settlers nonstop, always whipping it back to Size 2, let it regrow to 4 while building a Library and then again start on another Settler. I don't know actually if this plan is 100% perfect, maybe some of you can tell me. I do this, because the -> convesion rate with Slavery is better at small Sizes of the city, that's why I don't plan to let it always grow to Size 6 and 3 or 2pop-whip the Settlers, maybe that would have been better though. I don't consider a 4 tile as a really strong tile though till now, though I don't have any problems to whip that away.
It's btw only Size 2 atm, because I whipped another Settler out to block some land, as Frederick and Darius are already settling towards me, you'll see later. It also has a lot of Forrests, that are planned to be chopped asap for again some Settlers and some Wonders like the Parthenon, the SoZ and the MoM.


Osaka:



This is Osaka, the secondary Settler-pump. It's by far not as strong as Kyoto, but it has +7 at Size 3 with working the Gems, which I'll improve asap of course, and it has a lot in common for later use with Kyoto, also having a good potential for . So plan is, to always let it grow to Size 5, and then 2pop-whip the Settlers bringing it down to Size 3, letting it regrow on a Library, and then again start on a new Settler.
The Trees again will help fastening up the Settlers, which will take quite some time from this "medicore" city that has no "real" source of Food .


Bombay:



The holy city of Hinduism and GP Farm #1! Having the Oracle and the GLH, it's going to produce a GP of great value in 71 turns! It's very low on only having some grassland Cows and a farmed FP, so whipping will again be not good in this city. It has quite some production potential though, it has some forrests, it has Cows + Horses and it's coastal! That's why I plan to make it a "hybrid-GP-Farm", that's gonna get Cottages and mainly produce GPs from the Wonders it has. I plan on constructing also the Colossus in it, as this time, I've got lots of Coast to work, and overall, the Colossus will help me spare Workers! That's why I think, that this time, it's really a great Wonder. Cottages need very long to construct and they need a River to be good, FIN-Colossus-Coast is instantly good and doesn't need Workerturns, also the GM-GP-Points fit in very good with the ones from the GLH.
The Monestary in it was a wrong decision as it will turn out later, a Temple to maybe hire a Prophet-Specialist for some time would have been a lot better, but I didn't knew that at that time. As all cities, the Granary is highly prioritized as the most important building over all.


Delhi:



Welcome to Delhi, Worker-Pump #1! I've got 10 cities at this time already, but only 5 Workers, I have to do something about that, don't I? Even if I construct the Colossus and will be mainly working FIN-Coast, I need at least 1.5 Workers / city, especially with all the Jungle I'm going to expand to, and once Sushi goes online, cities have to be completely improved as they will be growing so fast that it would take 10 workers / city to improve the land fast enough! Delhi is strong with 3 sources of Food, but it's not good at growing that much further atm. That's why I don't construct a Granary in it for the meantime, I'll simply let it produce Workers at Size 3 nonstop, 1pop whip one every 30 turns, let it regrow to Size 3 on a Granary or Lighthouse and then let it produce Workers again. To little whips and nearly no growth at all, so no need for those early .
The few Forrests shall help put out those workers a lot faster. I'm so far behind with Workers atm and besides the Colossus there are no more coastal Wonders, so they're not needed for anything. Good that they're there.


Vijaynagara:



The last of Ghandis city only has 1 really good tile, and that is the dry Corn, so it'll work with the same principles as Delhi. Produce Workers, sometimes grow to Size 2 and 1pop-whip some every 30 turns, but mainly, it'll stay Size 1, and not even get a Granary as it won't be growing and it won't be whipping that much.


Cologne:



This is a weak city. It was planned to be strong with double Food, but Frederick has settled closely to it and taken the Corn away. it has no real potential in near time, except putting some -pressure on Frederick. Well, we need 4 Monuments for the SoZ, this city as being so weak will get one of it. After that, it's gonna get a Terrace to further highten the Culture-pressure on Frederick. Only good thing is, that it pays for itself due to being coastal and me having the GLH.
But the people who know Cologne know, that the city is famous for other things then being extremely good or rich ;P


Hamburg:



Hamburg, the great harbor-city in the north of Germany. A really great place in Reality, and an even more awesome place in this round :> . This is gonna get our "real" GP Farm, having 5 sources of ! It already had a Granary when I conquered it, it desperately needs a Lighthouse as that would give it another +3 and it will serve as a great Settler- and backup Workerpump! I'm gonna 2pop-whip the Lighthouse and let it always grow to Size 5, and then 2pop-whip it down to Size 3 with a Settler, as it has so much that it'll instantly regrow the Corn, and farmed Bananas again are no strong tile for me.
It's gonna regrow on a Library, as I want to work some Scientists in it to create a greate One by the time I reach CS (Civil Service) so Buro. When getting Literature, it'll start out on the NE and grow, grow, grow into oblivion, size 15, maybe 17, to work at least 10 Specialists when I start the my first GA! This city is going to get really big, but expansion > GPs on a Huge map, so short term use: Settler-Pump, long term use: Real GP Farm with TGL and NE.


Essen:



The people who know Essen now, that it's a great production city. So is it in our game. It has a strong tile of , the Pigs, and it has 3 times Elephants, and it's coastal! We'll need some Ships on Big & Small Mapscript, and more than that, we'll need units to conquer the World! This shall get a -city that'll pump out Ships and Units, so it'll get a Terrace, a Barracks, a Stable and not much more. Atm though, it's weak, it's small and it'll take a long time to improve, that's why it's only building something very small like an exploring WB which is one of the most important things on this Map. Potential for later though is really good, but I'll have to wait long for that.


Berlin:



Berlin, Germanys Capital! One of the strongest cities there is in and production, and it'll get very similar in this round. It already has a monument and has started on a Settler as those are really the most important on a Huge Deity map, it's REX > all. It shall regrow on a Terrace to further put out some Culture, then again produce Settlers, and then again regrow on a Lighthouse. I should have probably made this city the HE-City and mine the Pigs, give it MOAI and everything, so it would have a real chance to even get that Corn that Fredericks new Capital "Munich" already stole, but I wasn't so wise at that time. Anyhow, I wasn't totally dumb either Be excited to see what I'll make out of this really great City.


Tiwanktu:



The last, and the newest city and: One that I founded! This is something special atm, as 8/10 cities were conquered in the Checker-Rush :> . This city was the most important to me to found as early as possible, because I really needed to secure that Marble for the Wonders mentioned. It's probably founded at the wrong place, and it needs a Borderpop asap, that's why it's building Monument #3.

That was the 1st part of the Catchup and Writeup with early city specialization, more to follow soon.

Till then, cya!

Seraiel

 

[civvver]

Btw.: I was wondering, why nobobdy except you has yet commented on the last part of the Replay, at least the HE-City should have really been good for some

Seraiel

Well I don't really have much to say about your city placement, I'm a poor dot mapper myself. Partly because I play custom maps with tons of resources (full of resources script) so it's impossible to make a bad city, dot maps aren't as necessary.

But I was impressed how you prechopped and got the GLH with ease. I prechop often but I've never been able to line it up that well. If I want a wonder I typically have to beeline it from the start. Marathon chopping is powerful though.

It's a shame doctors aren't paid better in Europe. Unfortunately government run health care does that. However the universities are pretty awesome there, as I recall they're very inexpensive. My brother in law is from Stuttgart but he lives in California now working for Bosch. I love Germany myself, have been there about 6-7 times on business and visiting relatives when they lived there.

 

[WastinTime]

I look forward to following your game. I see that Huge maps are quite different. I don't think it is efficient to settle large land cities (esp. not jungle). For score, you want to maximize cities per land by settling in the water.

Here's my next tip (after the one about Oracle->currency)
Overseas trade routes are +100%! A new city on an island will get +8 or more for its 4 trade routes, and the first few island cities you make will give an extra +1 in most of your other cities (so about +10!). My math may be off, but to summarize: Settle at least 3 cities off-continent ASAP. I failed to do this in my games.

tip #3:
War has been very good to your first 150 turns (free cities, free gold, free workers). Why have you abandoned this tactic and are pumping out settlers/workers the expensive way? I understand there might be a couple great locations you want settle, but other than that, keep the war machine moving. In my Small map game, I turtled-up (completely halted expansion) and race for Sushi, but I don't think this is best for Huge maps and maybe wasn't best for my game either.

Other thoughts:

barracks? something to consider in the capital after the first civ goes down.

bronze? I do like you did and wait to trade for it, but what if you research it 2nd after mining and start chopping? You should get copper online and can switch to Axes, then macemen.

 

[Seraiel]

And again, new day, new energy, next part of the Writeup :>


You read the Checker-Rush, you read the Oracle-Currency part, you got informed on the Status of the Incan Empire very well, now it's time for some Spoilers. What am I planning to do:

• Research Polytheism, trade for Monotheism, run OR.
• Spread Religion or adopt Islam, get some friends before the wars break out.
• REX LIKE A MADMAN!111
• Research Metalcasting to get Forges (think of IND again) and the Colossus asap!
• Settle the Islands after the Land has been settled, Islands are extremely important on B&S in a Points-Sushi-Approach.
• Build Granaries, Libraries and Barracks.
• Get the Mids, the HG, the Parthenon, the SoZ and the MoM!
• Build Shwedagon Paya and Chichen Itza for Failgold.
• Win the Music-Race to get the GA from it.
• Get Philosophy, build the NE, start a GA, create 5 (!) GP during it and bulb my way to Biology.
• Get another GA by constructing the TM, create many GPs to chain 2 further GAs.
• Do my Liberalism -> Medicine Slingshot!
• Have Sushi in the BCs!111
• Get Kremlin and Switch to US to spread Sushi in the fastest time you've ever seen!
• Get a ton of GMs to promote all the Knights I'm gonna have by that time to Cavs (it'll be to late for Cuirrassiers then, as I have to research as far as Medicine) and conquer the World with Cavs + Airships!
• Get to over 100 cities and score as high as I've never done!
• Be faster / better with anything than in Replay #2.

Now you've read it, Sushi in the BC's, is that even possible? Well, you'll see 8)

You'll also see the amazingly terrifying power of the Oracle-Currency move, when I'm going to compare Replay #2 to Replay #3!

Here are the years 1960 - 1510 BC, titled: The REX! ARGH!

Spoiler :

1940 BC, I found the great city of Macchu Picchu!



At least I think that it's great. I think it will have double Food, as it shouldn't be so hard to get those Pigs Frederick hasn't even aquired yet, should it? It has a lot of crappy plains, but it has the Food to support them, and it's settled on a plains Hill, it should have also some good production potential like that (I think) . It's getting Monument 4/4 because it needs to compete against Fredericks Culture.

Status of the Incan Empire: 12 cities, researching Metlacasting with 0% atm as I don't have enough money to complete it yet and often, AI researches it, so maybe I'll be able to even trade it. The Empire is doing +32 GPT at 0%, so still a lot room for REXing.


Here we go, same turn: Poly has finished, I trade it against 350 with Mansa. Great, that he's researching Calendar and has so much money, "you're the best Whore there is Mansa!"



Only 1 turn later, 1930 BC, I found the great city of Ollantaytambo!



As you know, this was also a high-priority city, because Roosevelt wanted to settle that spot aswell. I'm very glad that I could steal it from him, and that my Settler-production is working so well atm. This city is 1N of what was planned, because I've discoveredd that there is an Island iin the south, from where I can grab the Fishies. I have no immediate plan for that city till now unless just to have it, it has some production potential with the Copper but is a little too low on Food to get MOAI + HE, but maybe a production city with Workshops after all.

Status of the Incan Empire: 13 cities! Having started on researching MC as I'm afraid of AIs demanding my quite large amount of money now.


1880 BC: What's that? Pericles and Darius have an Archer behind my Borders? One even is fortified, that's a clear sign that they want to settle there! I decide on stalling the Pyramids for now, as I cannot let that happen.



On the Screen you can also see, that some Workers are building a Road at Stone and connecting Cuzco and later on Essen to the Rest of that Empire, because I need some for the cities to whip harder, and Stone is one of the next cities I planned to settle because of the Mids. Well, that plan is delayed for now. Don't get me wrong, Mids are a great Wonder, but I find REX > anything, and one cannot have everything. I still have a good chance at them, because often, they go as late as 1200 BC, so I still hope on getting those.


1870 BC, I trade Priesthood around to the few that don't have it yet. This brings in 200 which is meager, but better than nothing. I want to fasten up the Research, which is running at 30% with 46 BPT atm, that's too slow!


1850 - 1830 BC: The expansion is running on highest possible rate. Nobody whips harder than me! Here come another 2 Settlers!


1800 B, I discover that I've got some nice Islands southwards from the Empire. This is a really nice discovery, because on B&S, it's the Islands which have the most of the Seafood, and they're close to my Palace, I really love those, I can expand to them after the land has been settled!



On the Screen, you can also see that I'm researching a little bit into Calendar. I do that, because I know, that I'm not gonna get it easily for Currency. Remember, the AI has research-discounts on their techs on Deity, to calculate how much one of your techs is worth, you have to multiply is with 0.7, so Currency, which is 2300 Beakers is actually only worth about 1750! Calendar is 2050, so I calculate, that I'll need at least 300 Beakers in it to get it for Currency. I'll see again later, what of a Rip-off Artist Mansa is.


1780 BC, I found the great city of Corihuayrachina!



Now this one really is a great one! Pericles was already waiting with an Archer at the Site, and I found it 1S of the blue circle, because I see no chance in getting the inner-circle-tiles from Darius' city. It has no really strong source of , but it has some Forrests which are rare on this map, so it'll develop fast, and it has a high amount of Ressources, that I'll need for trade!

Btw, trade? I made it so, that I give Ressources to all of the Civs till now, as I really want to get that Diplo-Bonus as early as possible! Even if they have no money, I gift them to them. Of course, I'm mainly giving away weak ressources such as ressources, though, they aren't as weak as one would think with so much jungle, but at least it's better than giving them Gems, Gold or even Ivory!

Status of the Incan Empire: 14 cities, not researching but saving money. At 0% still doing +29 GPT, so still very very good. I'm beginning to experience the strength of Oracle Currency. I don't have a single Cottage till now, neither do I have a Shrine. All comes from some special ressources but it's mainly the TRs, especially with the ones from the GLH, and if I could aquire the money atm, I could do 160 BPT at 100%!


1760 BC! Hinduism is spreading like I didn't expect it to! I've build zero Missionaries till now, and 4 Civs have already converted to it! This is actually something I neither expected, nor wanted, because it's bad for my planned Diplomacy. It'd be perfect if they all went Islam, then it would be a big Loveparade and I'd be sure to get all the Sushi-Ressources from everyone.



Looking closer, we see that it's Caesar, Darius, Pericles and Washington whom have gone Hinduists. Darius and Pericles are sitting near, and the only Civ that is also sitting near and follows the Islam is Washington. I decide to build some Missionaries to convert him and go Hinduism myself, as it has already spread to most of my cities and I want that OR-Bonus asap, as I still have a lot of Buildings to build! I haven't planned this, but now I'm hoping that the GP from Bombay will be a great Prophet and no Merchant.
Maybe this is because Bombay is a coastal city, and because the AIs build WBs to explore the coast very early on and also founds a lot of coastal cities.

Btw.: The Settler of Pericles has discovered Corihuayrachina and he has turned around! "Ha!" Nice one, go away Pericles, you're not welcome here!


And: OMG! I now notice for the first time, that I wasn't researching into Calendar but Construction!!! Now I get it why the next trade is so expensive, in 1850: I trade Currency + 235 vs Calendar with Mansa!



Same turn, I also found the great City of Huamanga at Stone!



I told you, Marble and Stone have the highest value for me in my games, as I heavily play with Failgold Economy to do deficit research. I also still plan on constructing the Mids, so this city was absolutely necessary and already comes late, but I had to found the Blocker-Cities before that, or I would have lost some really good sites. You know how close it was already, and it get's even closer, Darius is showing up with an Immortal and his Archer has been fortified, now he's found a spot behind my borders where he wants to settle! Note, this is at 1750 BC!

Status of the Incan Empire: 15 cities!


1720 BC, Someone unkown builds the Mids

Ok, this is really really early, even if I had settled Stone earlier, I would have had to do everything to get those, no "real" chance really. This is odd, as I was already chopping those Forrests for them.

Same Turn, Washington visits my Palace and convinces me to become a Hinduist. I have to agree, because Washington is really dangerous when it comes to demands, I think he has a chance of 100% to go to WHEOOHRN if one denies him! It's not so bad afterall, because I already planned for this, I just wanted to wait a little longer until the initial wars have broken out, but now, that doesn't matter anymore.

I instantly get Mansas worst Enemy by this! He's a religious fanatic, I have to do something to fix that.

Also same turn, I'm able to pull of another trade. Viccy has researched Monarchy and is willing to trade it instantaniously.



Btw.: I'm doing 8 GPT atm by Ressource Trade!


1710 BC! Now that I decided for a Religion, I need Monotheism to run OR. I trade Monarchy against it with Sabrina:



This turn, I also got a demand for Alphabet from Cyrus, which I agree to. This is btw only the 3rd demand I got till now! Seems as if DanF's spreadsheet Tachywaxon gave to me really works out, that is the smallest number of demands I ever had in a game!
The other demands were Masonry from Hatty and Meditation from Sulei, those were small, now the Alpha-demand was a big one, but it also gives big benefit, +3 for Fairtrade and +1 for giving help. I'm starting to find some "friends" finally ;P


1700 BC is a big turn! I make the following decisions:

• Monarchy to Roosevelt to get him to pleased, and then I ask nicely if he would convert to Hinduism, he does! Now I got a belt of religious safety around my empire!
• Polytheism for and diplomatic bonuses to everyone!
• I whip the next Settler, at least I wanted to expand.
• Olympia takes place in Hamburg! Nice, some free diplo-bonuses for everyone who takes part in it!
• I gift Alpha to anyone who doesn't have it already!
• I gift Monarchy to Mansa. He was already researching it, and I don't wanna stay his worst Enemy, as I need trades from him.

Take a look at the new diplomatic situation after this:



That's nice, 5 AIs already at pleased? MM researching Feudalism?

Only thing that's not nice, is that I'm only #1 by 36 points, this is not enough!

Same turn btw, Frederick takes a city-site I wanted to have. I don't mind, as I plan on going to war and conquer him as soon as I run out of land to settle, I tell myself that "he's only settling for me" .




1690 BC, I gift Monotheism for more diplomatic-bonuses to every Civ. This gets Sabrina also to pleased.


1680 BC, Frederick fortifies an Archer directly at Cuzco! I have to get a Settler to avert this!


1670 BC: My HE-City-Settler finally arrives in the deepest Jungle one can imagine XD I found the great city of Vilcas!



OLOLOL! Look at the site and how far it is away from the rest of the empire! Best of all, it's even next to CRE Sabrina, and I really think, that it'll produce enough to steal tiles from the inner Ring of her city *LMAO* . This is the most ludicrous move of the whole round XD

Same turn, I also gift Monarchy to Darius, as I'm afraid that he might DoW me, we have some shared borders. This also gets him to pleased. Now 7 AIs are pleased with me, diplomacy looks really good.

Status of the Incan Empire: 16 cities, still expanding! Research again up to 100% doing 195 BPT!


1670 BC: Sabrina bulbs Theology with a great Prophet and founds Buddhism. With Frederick I have a lot of shared borders, I'm not ready for war, so I gift him Monarchy, get him to pleased, spread Hinduism to his biggest city with the 1st missionary I produced, and ask nicely if he would convert to the superior Religion of Hinduism, he agrees. This is good for the short term as it will prevent him from starting any wars against me, it's not so good for later when I want to conquer him, as I'm going to piss of most Hinduists, but 1500 - 1800 BC is the time, where the most wars with non-AGG AIs break out on Deity and I want to expand, so this is a good move.


1660 BC, I gift Calendar to Sabrina and am shocked, it only gives +1 back! I did this, because I was afraid that she could DoW me because of the shared borders with the planned HE-City. She's become cautious again, because she also pays great attention to Religion and is following the Islam. Later on I will find out, that this move was totally superflous, as I'll get +2 with her for sharing HR and OR with her, to which I will convert once I have finished MC.


1650 BC, Metalcasting finally finishes! This is a great Moment, Forges and possible Colossus are another great Step to World-Domination on this map! Again, before switching to HR and OR, I do a really superflous move, I gift 250 to Sabrina because I'm afraid of her. -.- ^^ This finally gets her to pleased, and after switching to HR + OR, she likes me even more ;D At least, I get 90g back by begging from her, so it's only 160g that were wasted.


1630 BC, open Borders Bonus finally gets to +2. This gets more Civs to pleased. Here is another look at Religions and Diplomacy from that time:



Looks nice, doesn't it? ;D


1610 BC, I found the great city of Vilcabamba, another production-city of which I need some more urgently:



Just remember where those cities were, if you wanna laugh again ;/

Status of the Incan Empire: 17 cities!


1590 BC: Time for city #18! Vilcas goes online!



Status of the Incan Empire: 18 Cities!

Now, these last three really wrecked my economy. Research is down to 10%, that's not enough by far! I need some Cottages! I am already researching CoL, as I knew, that 15 cities somehow is the limit for a non-cottaged Empire that only has Currency.


1530 BC: I've gambled too much! Darius Settler arrives behind my Borders, and he founds this city:



Worst thing: His next Settler (marked on the Screen) is already on his way, also behind my Borders! Too late. I realize, what big of a Fail my last cities were, but it's a HoF Game, so no reloading, no possibility to correct mistakes. I have to accept that I've screwed up. Also very very bad: Darius' city steals the Food from Tiwanktu!

These were the years 1960 to 1510 BC :> Savegame is attached, hope you enjoyed the maddest REX I've ever done, and hope you laughed hard when looking at my choices ;P

Till tomorrow, Seraiel

 

[Seraiel]

Well I don't really have much to say about your city placement, I'm a poor dot mapper myself. Partly because I play custom maps with tons of resources (full of resources script) so it's impossible to make a bad city, dot maps aren't as necessary.

But I was impressed how you prechopped and got the GLH with ease. I prechop often but I've never been able to line it up that well. If I want a wonder I typically have to beeline it from the start. Marathon chopping is powerful though.

It's a shame doctors aren't paid better in Europe. Unfortunately government run health care does that. However the universities are pretty awesome there, as I recall they're very inexpensive. My brother in law is from Stuttgart but he lives in California now working for Bosch. I love Germany myself, have been there about 6-7 times on business and visiting relatives when they lived there.

TY for having been impressed Learning how to time chops, needs some planning ahead, one has to consider what will be in 10 or 20 turns, than it's actually easy. I did some Math in the game there and calculated the number of forrests I'd need with being IND, I always have a calculator opened up while playing. Helps a lot.

I look forward to following your game. I see that Huge maps are quite different. I don't think it is efficient to settle large land cities (esp. not jungle). For score, you want to maximize cities per land by settling in the water.

First of all, I'm glad you joined in The jungle-cities were a big fail, I know that now, and I will get a lot of coastal cities in the follow-up. I know the point about maximising cities / land, but actually didn't take full advantage of it in this round. I'm still really a Nub and have a lot work to do to get a better routine.

Here's my next tip (after the one about Oracle->currency)
Overseas trade routes are +100%! A new city on an island will get +8 or more for its 4 trade routes, and the first few island cities you make will give an extra +1 in most of your other cities (so about +10!). My math may be off, but to summarize: Settle at least 3 cities off-continent ASAP. I failed to do this in my games.

That's a really good one, thx! I actually never thought about it that way. I noticed that overseas trade puts out a lot of in the end of the round, when I settled all the island-cities. Everytime I founded one, my GPT rised instead of going down. Be sure that I'll settle some overseas cities asap in my next game!

tip #3:
War has been very good to your first 150 turns (free cities, free gold, free workers). Why have you abandoned this tactic and are pumping out settlers/workers the expensive way? I understand there might be a couple great locations you want settle, but other than that, keep the war machine moving. In my Small map game, I turtled-up (completely halted expansion) and race for Sushi, but I don't think this is best for Huge maps and maybe wasn't best for my game either.

Problem was, that I had no good production cities, and war is only that good with Checkers. Follow-up war with Axes against 40-50% hills-cities without Catapults is aweful, and in addition, I would have become Worst Enemy of lots of Civs if I had declared only 1 more war, and than I wouldn't have been able to trade with them so well, as you'll see .

Other thoughts:

barracks? something to consider in the capital after the first civ goes down.

bronze? I do like you did and wait to trade for it, but what if you research it 2nd after mining and start chopping? You should get copper online and can switch to Axes, then macemen.

Barracks are 150 and I was already very very low on those, as the cities I conquered had near zero production potential. The Checkers I pumped out already came very late, Bismarck had Alpha when I attacked him, that's why he could bribe all those Civs against me. If I had had some good production city I would have thought about it, but Cuzco should become the Buro Capital and therefor I prioritized first the Checkers and then the Library over the Barracks.

Getting BW would mean another 700 on Huge / Marathon. With that, it's simply not possible to get Oracle-Currency till T150. I am thinking about researching Sailing in some of my future games, as that tech at least gives back some extra , but BW, too expensive, Axemen, no good.

Maces + Cats / Trebs are awesome, I support you on that, but also awesome: Fast-teching to Cavs, overrunning the World with Cavs + Airships

Cya, Seraiel

 

[Seraiel]

I forgot something, I wanted to post with the Writeup today: The comparison between Replay #2 and Replay #3! This contains a Spoiler of what will follow.


Replay #2: 2000 BC (T150) : 3 Civs conquered, initial Checker-Rush complete, no Alpha, Oracle still 20T. Research going to Aesthetics, but absolutely no money to research at all. Number of cities: 9
Replay #3: Same time: Minimum conquered Civs of 3, Checker Rush complete, have Alpha + Math + Currency (last by Oracle) , 11 Cities, Research at 100 / turn

Replay #2: 1500 BC: (T200) : Have Alpha, have CoL, 12 Cities, still no Economy allowing any Research at all. Capital Size 4, all cities building Libraries or Courthouses.
Replay #3: Same Time: Still have Alpha, still have Math, still have Currency, even have Calendar, have CoL and have Metalcasting! Number of cities: 18 (!), Research still at 100 / turn Capital Size is 5, most cities are building forges already, no Courthouses yet.

Replay #2: 1000 BC (T250) : I now have the techs from Replay #3 at 1500 BC (T200), Research no is stable after 1000y of pause and at 130 / turn. 15 Cities, largest being the GP Farm of Karakorum with a Size of 7.
Replay #3: Same Time: Now it gets ugly... We were talking about snowballing at some time, didn't we? 20 Cities, Capital of Size 11, GP Farm of Size 13, every tech including Paper and Philo, researching Education with 100% at 460 / turn

 

[ChanceDanger]

Interesting write up, one thing I noticed is that you traded health resources instead of your happiness to the AI leaders. As far as I've heard, it's actually better to trade off happiness first because the Deity bonuses usually lead them to health problems before happy problems. At least, I'm pretty sure that once they hit Monarchy they won't be able to use the happiness but the health will be a big advantage for them.

 

[Keilah]

I noticed something, and am curious. You said the Statue of Zeus makes enemies capitulate faster... is that true? What is the mechanic behind it?

and re: growing to 4 and whipping settlers vs growing to 6 and whipping settlers
As long as all your tiles have 3 or more food, you will grow from 4->6 faster than from 2->4, making growing to 6 better in a vacuum. However, 2->4 is only slightly less efficient and starts producing settlers much much earlier, making 2->4 the better choice by a good margin in the early game.

It's similar to your discovery that a mediocre but existing city is a much better heroic epic site than an excellent but not-yet-founded city.

Once all your blocking sites are settled and you're in no hurry, you may choose to grow, although by that time you will have stacked a bit of whip anger.

 

[vranasm]

@keilah

at 4->2 you get more hammers/food invested then 6->4 (that's just simple math based on city growth size formula since hammers are static - 30 on normal, but food to invest for growth is linear), but if you have at least 3 stellar tiles I could see argument why to shift the whip cycle to size that suits better the tiles.

but that would imply city with 3 5+ food bonuses and that is pretty rare. More typical is 1-2 strong food tile and some hills/farms around.