Replay #3 Coming closer Wastin :D

[Keilah]

@keilah

at 4->2 you get more hammers/food invested then 6->4 (that's just simple math based on city growth size formula since hammers are static - 30 on normal, but food to invest for growth is linear), but if you have at least 3 stellar tiles I could see argument why to shift the whip cycle to size that suits better the tiles.

but that would imply city with 3 5+ food bonuses and that is pretty rare. More typical is 1-2 strong food tile and some hills/farms around.

The amount of food required to grow increases by 2/size, so as long as it takes at least 2 turns to grow, you will grow faster at higher sizes so long as every tile is 3f or more. Hammers/turn from whipping is the relevant stat, not hammers/food.

This is on normal speed and assumes no granary. A granary might change things a little, I'm not certain on the mechanic, but I have a hunch that it would ake things better for hte bigger city.

Still, it's better to whip at the smaller size, just because it gets started on the grow/whip cycle so much sooner that it would take a long time for the larger city to catch up. Just as important, you need those first few cities out ASAP to get them before the AI does, but the later cities are usually backfill, meaning there's no hurry to settle them.

 

[Seraiel]

Here goes the continuation of the Writeup :>


Last time, you saw some really mad REX. Now this REX is gonna get a little slower, as the Incan Empire is at the edge of it's economy, but it hasn't come to an end yet! It's a Huge map, and as already told once, I'm gonna have over 100 cities in the end, so there's still a lot of work to do! All the islands in the south are to settle before Frederick or Pericles get them. I know they're already building Galleys, AI always does. Lets not let that happen, what happened in the frontyard of Cuzco, you know what I'm talking about, the two cities of Darius'.

The years 1500 - 1000 BC:

Spoiler :

Here you see a big region of islands I've scouted with an exploring WB in the south of Berlin! It has place for at least another 10 cities! I didn't have the time / ressources to scout further to the east yet, but I know, that there are at least three more Islands on which I want to settle, so I roughly need about 15 Settlers, but not asap. What's more important is, that I get some Cottages, some Forges and some Courthouses, some cities haven't even finished on the Granary yet!

1480 BC I discover, that Viccy didn't only tech Aesthetics, she has also completed Literature so she's one step before reaching Music! The chance for this is so low, I cannot really believe it myself. I don't wanna tech Aesthetics as I find it to be wasted time if she has it already for so long, what I wonder more about is: Am I going to get the Parthenon, the SoZ and the GL?

I used some Checkers to uncover a lot of the map, so let's see if Viccy has Marble:

Spoiler :

Doesn't look like it, does it? :> So I guess I'll get at least the GL, as AI doesn't push to that wonder at all, even though it's a really good one imho, but the Parthenon and especially the SoZ could get close.

1450 BC, I convince Cyrus with the help of a Math, that Hinduism is the mightier Religion than Islam is. Cyrus has a lot of cities and is really really strong, he's a little behind in tech, but I wanna get him onto my side, and I wanna isolate Mansa more, so that he doesn't trade so much.

Btw.: Currency is developing extremely well: Atm. I'm getting +21 GPT only from trading Ressources!


1440 BC, Caesar completes the ToA! I had no interesst on the Wonder, and without having Marble yet, I had no intention on building it for Failgold.


1430 BC, I finally complete CoL! That's good news, I'm really gonna need those Courthouses to ease my economy, which is beyond it's edge since settling the latest 3 Jungle-cities. The Forges and even some Terraces have to be completed first, but, there is light at the end of the tunnel.


1400 BC: Finally, Marble goes online! Remember, I settled that city with the 1st Settler, but it needed a Borderpop, and it needed to build the Quarry. Those things really take forever on Marathon. Maybe next time, I'm going to think about settling on the Marble or at least nearer to it.

This means, I can finally start on the MoM! After connecting the most worthful ressources, like Copper and the Lux-Ressources, my Workers have already been pre-chopping at Kyoto, so the production output on the 1st turn of having started MoM is already 600+ Hammers.

A good trick that I tend to use more often lately: Whip something with a lot of OF before Marble or Stone is connected, and then save those by letting the city produce something like Wealth or Research in the meantime. Then, once Marble or Stone are connected, switch in the Wonder, and instantly have all Hammers back and multiplied with the specific percentages of the Ressource and the Trait :> For the MoM, I used a Forge for this, as they're simply extremely powerful, especially when one has them so early. 4 chopped forrests with OR + Forge are simply like 6! With having Math, being IND and having the Ressource, every chopped Forrest is an astonishing amount of 270 !
Building Wealth is also good while accumulating Forrests, one can chop them all and then switch the Wonder in when enough Hammers are ready. Like this, one makes 100% sure not to waste any Forrests in Failgold, one gets the Wonder, or one still has all the Hammers and can instant-build another one.

I've btw also started on the HG, as the "initial peaceful expansion" is over for the moment. It'll take some time till I can settle those islands, and HG is a Wonder I don't wanna miss as it's really really powerful with so many cities on Huge. If I would simply whip away the Population I get by that wonder, I would gain over 1600 !!!

And, this is not the last of the Wonders atm: Bombay has completed it's Forge and has started on building the Colossus! Another great step towards saving Workerturns and getting a better Economy!

Here is a Screen of the Chopping-Action in three cities:

Spoiler :

You can also see, that the Incan Empire is doing stable 75 BPT and that I've decided to research Civil Service. Probably a fault I already made twice now, as I will find out soonly, as I don't need it yet and AI always researches that. The Revolution to CS can only happen during a GA, I found that out by doing Math, it would take more than 60 turns to run Buro before it would have produced more then lost through the 3 turns of Anarchy, not taking the production loss into account.


1350 BC: As I'm still Mansa's Worst Enemy, he has directed all his espionage towards me. I can only see what he is researching "between the turns", and, it is: Metalcasting -.- I gift it to him for some Diplo-bonuses and because I need him as a research partner. I get +1 for Fairtrade and +1 for sharing my Tech-Discoveries and next turn, I'm not his worst Enemy anymore. But what does this dumbass continue with? Well of course, he continues with CoL *MAD* Now it's gonna get really hard to get Theology and Feudalism from him...


1340 BC: Again, a big Moment, I complete the Hanging Gardens in Cuzco!



Believe me, I love this Wonder on Huge maps with tons of cities, it's really tremendously powerful. All the Jungle-cities get instantaniously size 2, that's a lot closer to a Terrace which they desperately need, because atm, they're crushed from the Culture of Sabrina and Washingtons cities. Also, just take a look at the Graphs skyrocketing:




1330 BC is a big round. MM has traded MC with Sabrina for Aesthetics, so finally, I can get it and have a shot at the Wonders! I easily aquire 450 Gold by trading and begging, but Mansa still doesn't want to trade it against CoL... Now what do I do: I get desperate! I need Aesthetics, and I need it yesterday, and I need it for CoL, CS is still too far away and even if I had it, I wouldn't wanna trade such an expensive tech against a cheap one like Aesthetics. I trade Techs for the smallest amount ever, Washington gets MC as cheap as 80 Gold (!) , Viccy even for only 40 but with her I at least get Diplo-bonuses for Fairtrade so I can also convince her to join the Hinduist Loveparade... Best Move: I misclick and gift MC to Darius for free!!! -.-

With the last possible trade, I aquire an amount of 580 Gold and guess what: I succeed Here is a picture of the trade with Mansa, the rip-off-Artist of rip-off-Artists:



I instantly start on researching Literature as I haven't given up on Music yet. If I now not had started on CS but saved that money... At least, Mansa doesn't start on teching CS now, but Philosophy. I still cannot believe it, that I gave away so many techs for so little money, but I really want the Parthenon, as it means about 1.5 - 2 more GP with my playstyle.


1320 BC is the biggest moment of this part of the Writeup: I complete the MoM in Kyoto. Besides the Oracle, it is the most important wonder for my playstyle!



YEEHAAAW! Only 8 turns after Marble came online, quite good, ain't it? ;P


Only 1 turn later, in 1310 BC, the next big Moment happens, I finish: The Colossus in Bombay!



Yer! With so much coast to work, the Colossus is so good, that I instantly get +20 ! Research is stable now at 40% again which means 110 BPT! Btw.: +32 GPT now already are coming from trading Ressources!


Again, only 1 turn later, 1300 BC, AC asks for Aesthetics. I grant it to him, get him to friendly, and am able to make this trade:



Same turn, I found another city named Andahuaylas:

Spoiler :

It's one of the last cities I could sqeeze in on the Continent, and it's good, but it'll take a lot of work to steal those tiles from Frederick.


1250 BC, I get my first GP! As you already know, Hinduism has spread well, nearly all my cities have it, and I've converted lots of Civs to it, now the chance on a great Prophet was 50%, but what do I get:

A GM -.-



Now for short term, this is ok, but with Hinduism having spread to 29% of all existing cities, a Prophet of course would have been better. Well, anyway. I search for the best city to send it to. First I think that it's Caesars Antium which has the ToA, but then I discover Mansas Capital:



Size 15?!? Is this guy crazy? Does he know that there is a whip-button-existing???

Same turn, I found the last city on the Continent for now, in the south of Cuzco, Ica:

Spoiler :

You can also see on the screen that Cuzco atm is producing Chichen Itza for Failgold.


1240 BC: Literature completes and I convince Sabrina to go Hinduist aswell XD


1230 BC, I conduct another trade with Caesar, CoL + 140 vs HBR!



I got everything I'd need for Elepult now, except any good production city *LOL* . I begin on researching Theology and Feudalism, as I want to trade those somehow with the newly aquired Techs of Construction, HBR and Literature.


Bad news in 1210 BC: Viccy gets a GA, and while looking closely at the Tech-Screen I realize, she has beaten me to Music! That means 1 GP less and a delayed first GA...


Good news again in 1200 BC: Sabrina has become friendly with the change of Religion and has aquired Theology from Mansa I guess. I'm able to trade it from her against Literature, HBR and Construction!




1190 BC, Roosevelt has beaten Mansa to Philo! He's friendly, so I can trade it instantly from him. Here is a picture of the trade:



Awesome!


1180 BC, the GM arrives in Timbuktu! Benefit of his great Trade-Mission: 3300 XD I need those desperately, as the AIs have near to zero gold allowing deficit research. Again though, a great Prophet would probably have been better.

Same turn, I'm able to aquire Feudalism from Hatty against Philosophy XD




1170 BC: Viccy completes the SoZ! :/ Well, at least I get 400 Failgold for it...


1130 BC: Another trade, Feudalism vs Compass with Roosy!



Btw, does anyone now still remember what the last Tech was that I researched myself? XD


1110 BC: I finish Civil Service! At last! No I do the Math, and it concludes, that I'd have to run Buro for 65 turns, before it would have catched up on the losses of the 3 turns of Anarchy, not considering the loss of production. That is why I don't switch instantly, as I wanna start a GA in near future!


1090 BC is the turn of another great Wonder: The Parthenon of Kyoto!



As you should have noticed by now, I'm stacking the GP-Points by their type. I build GM / GP Wonders in Bombay, GA Wonders in Kyoto and GE Wonders in Cuzco. Berlin will get the GL soon, so I'll play with 4 GP Farms this time, all specified on 1 or 2 specific kinds of GPs!


With all the money from the GM, deficit research is no problem anymore. 1050 I already reach Paper! As I hope to get Circumnavigation, which is of great value on a B&Ss map, I trade maps with everybody for money or even techs. Here is: The Worldmap!

Spoiler :

We now see the islands, on which Lizzy, Willem and Lincoln have started. I instantly send my WB over there to meet them, perhaps I'm gonna get some additional Tradepartners? Trading maps regretably didn't get me Circumnavigation till now.


1020 BC is one of the last great moments of this holy post of Wonderspam, here comes the GL!



So now, I only need the NE and another GP, and everything is set up for the craziest tech-race towards Sushi :>


Nothing special happens anymore till 1000 BC, here is the Save for those of you, wanting to have a closer look. Next, I will write a summary of the Incan Empire at 1000 BC with all cities and show how I developed the land. Till then, Cya!

Seraiel

 

[Seraiel]

I noticed something, and am curious. You said the Statue of Zeus makes enemies capitulate faster... is that true? What is the mechanic behind it?

A friend of mine who wins regularly on Deity has noticed, that his enemies always capitulate at about 110 War Warriness. SoZ doubles that, that's why I thought it would help make them capitulate. Is War Warriness not attached to such things?

and re: growing to 4 and whipping settlers vs growing to 6 and whipping settlers
As long as all your tiles have 3 or more food, you will grow from 4->6 faster than from 2->4, making growing to 6 better in a vacuum. However, 2->4 is only slightly less efficient and starts producing settlers much much earlier, making 2->4 the better choice by a good margin in the early game.

It's similar to your discovery that a mediocre but existing city is a much better heroic epic site than an excellent but not-yet-founded city.

Once all your blocking sites are settled and you're in no hurry, you may choose to grow, although by that time you will have stacked a bit of whip anger.

That is awesome info, TY! I guess I will have less problems with letting cities grow a little bit bigger in the future and still whip once they're large. I always was afraid of that, because I read of the better conversion-rates at small sizes, that's why I took 4->2 or 5->3 .

 

[Seraiel]

Here is the promised overview around the Incan Empire at 1000 BC!


First of all, the Empire in Screens:

Spoiler :

The Core:



The Expansion:

You can see a lot on those two screens. First of all: The Extension sucks bad XD But besides that, the Empire is quite well developed. Nearly all Forrests have been chopped an used to build Wonders, there are only very few roads leading from one city to another, the Food is completely improved, after that I improved Luxury and Strategic Ressources, and very last, at about 1500 BC I decided to build a few Cottages.
You can also see, that the next GP will come out of Hamburg, the "real" GP Farm (but actually only one out of 4), a large city with 5 times of Food in the very west. And you see, that it has a good chance of getting a GE. Other large cities are the Capital Cuzco with size 11, Kyoto, Bombay, Osaka and Delhi, so mainly, the early conquered sites with a great amount of Food and lots of forrests, so less Whips were necessary.
The developement plan for all cities is always the same: Granary -> Forge -> Courthouse -> (Lighthouse) -> Library / Barracks . Berlin (the spot in the very NW) will also get a Theater, aswell as the Extension-Cities, as they have to fight heavily for their tiles. By looking again at the Screen now, you can guess the state of developement of the cities now, if they're building a Library or a Barracks, you know that they already have a Forge and a Courthouse.
Also pay attention to the upper left corner: Very few Cottages but still doing 466 BPT? Yes. This is mainly due to having so many coastal cities and the GLH + the Colossus, and it comes of course from working those Luxury Ressources. Near 30 EP are also quite high as I really pushed those Courthouses to be able to REX further, in the lower right you see, that I've spied enough on Mansa and Hatty already to see what I'm getting and when.


Let's have a quick look at the finances, before we look at the cities in detail:



TRs make up 2/5 of the . Another 2/5 are only from Luxes, and only about 1/5 is from Cottages. A great source of Income is the ressource-trade with foreign Civs, which brings in 43 GPT atm. The expenses are mainly city maintenance aswell as Civic upkeep. This is due to the Empire having 20 cities atm and running HR + Slavery + OR. Especially the last one is really expensive, but look, how well I spread the Religion to all cities. This is really something I'd advise you to do, just think of all those Hammers you're going to save when you run OR and the city has the right Religion when building a University later, but even when "only" building the 360 Hammers Courthouses, one notices the difference greatly. I'm not running Buro yet, but I plan to in near future and I'm going to switch, as soon as I can start a GA.


The cities in detail:

Spoiler :

Cuzco:


As I told you, it has exactly the buildings it needs as a Buro Capital. A Granary, a Forge, a Library, and because it's coastal, a Lighthouse. The Aqueduct is superflous but was necessary to build the HGs, and it surely will not hurt, cause this city is ment to grow really big. I whip in it as little as possible, actually I can only remember whipping the Granary in it, everything else was chopped with the Forrests. Size 11 by 1000 AD with so little Food is impressive. This city has never built a single Worker or Settler that would have stalled Growth, only some Checkers in the beginning, and from then on Buildings followed by Wonders.
Besides it being the Buro Capital I plan it to be a GE-Farm during a GA.


Kyoto:



Kyoto, as you see, has a lot of Food-Surplus. Therefore, I often use it to produce some Settlers or Workers, and it's really well developed. It got the Parthenon, the MoM and a Theater in addition to the usual Commerce-City-Buildings, because Darius settled behind my Borders. This city shall make his city in the west flip! Just look at the 113 turns of whipping anger it accumulated, and believe me, I did no small Whips in that city ;D 4pop-Courhouse-Whip? NP! This city has the power for such things, Food is simply greater than everything, BUT: It doesn't put out as much Commerce as Cuzco, so it's only some secondary Commerce-City that will still serve as a Worker / Settler Pump mainly, but: It'll get a great time as a hybrid-GP-Farm during the following GA!


Osaka:



Less Food, less developed city. Only as good as a tertiary or even farther behind in sort of a Settler Pump, but not that bad as a Commerce city. I didn't whip that much, as it doesn't have that much Food. Notice, that as the two cities before, this city also is only working it's strongest tiles and has the most necessary buildings.


Bombay:



Another well developed Commerce-City, that is also used as a Hybrid or Secondary GP-Farm, having the GLH, the Colossus and the Oracle. It has not that much Food, but a lot of Hammers, and it had Forrests, that's why it is so well developed.


Delhi:



Another former Capital Site, and a great one with lots of food, a green hill, 2 Spices and Colossus Coast. A little bit behind in developement, because it had to pump out Workers for so long. As all the other secondary Commerce cities it does about 40 BPT at 100% Research, which is great at 1000 BC. Again, only working the best tiles and having the most necessary buildings.


Vijaynagara:



A nice little coastal city, that served as a Worker-Pump for long time at small size, and will now become great, as having gotten a Lighthouse and having lots of FIN Colossus coast. Nearly fully developed, so it can grow now.


Cologne:



This city really had bad luck. Frederick stole it's Corn, it was surrounded by Jungle so it took long to develop, that's why it's so far behind the other cities. Still, it has the oldest Cottage or even Village already of the whole Empire, and 21 BPT isn't so bad. You see, that it is also planned to have a Theater, are you getting a clue now what my plan is with all those? It's not just Cultural-pressure I want to make with them XD


Hamburg:



The great great Person Farm of Hamburg, atm being set to work only few Specialists as it shall still grow to something like Size 17 or so, before I start the first GA and will work 10+ Specialists in it. It has the GL and the oldest Terrace of the whole Empire, it also is the largest city of all, and as you see, it even put's out quite some research! It'll get the NE and produce the main part of the GPs.


Essen:



After all those Commerce-cities and GP Farms, you're asking yourself "where are the Hammer / Production cities?" and you're right! This actually is one XD Not really ueber, but with 3 times Elephants + a good Source of Food it's not that bad after all, and as it's coastal, it surely can produce some Ships of which we'll need a lot on this map.


Berlin:



This is a great city, but it's in trouble! Something went totally wrong with Culture. I conquered it from Frederick, you know that, so it had a great amount of german culture in it, and as soon as the 2rd Borderpop from the neighbouring Munich happened, all those tiles became German again! I already prioritized Culture in it as I wanted to steal the Corn from Munich, no way to do this now, but, I have a Trump-Card: The Globe Theater! For the first time, I'll make a GT-Whip / Draft -city, and you won't believe how awesome this city will develop soon and how many troops it's gonna chew out, it'll be unbelievable, I tell you O_o


Tiwanktu:



What's that? Tiwanktu has it's food back from the inner ring of Darius' city? XD Well, it should only last for so long until I had improved it ;/ Other than that, this city was founded very early to secure Marble and work the Gems and the Gold, it's underdeveloped because it had no Food for long time, and a little bit because it was founded in the wrong place. 1S aswell as 1SE would both have been better. I know now. This city of course will also get Commerce.


Macchu Picchu:



Can somebody plz tell me, why this city is so underdeveloped and why it doesn't have the Pigs but Frederick? I really don't know, it was founded early, it makes +4 Culture which is more than Frederick can make, I prioritized Culture in it, and it has another source of Food, any thoughts on it? Well, at least it got lucky and plopped Silver from the mine, that's really great, but other than that, I have no explanation why this city is so behind.


Ollantaytambo:



OMG, a military city? XD Unbelievable, but I have some of those, they were only settled like really late and still have to be developed a lot. Believe it or not, but this city is going to get the HE-City as I revert my decision because the Jungle-cities of the Extension develop simply too slow, and because this city is coastal, so it can get MOAI. MOAI + HE is a really great Combo, believe me, and I am gonna need lots of ships on this map.
Plz don't look at the Library in the buildcue. Don't look at it, just forget it, ah, too late, well, just shows how much of a Nub I still am, I'll never do that again. Libary in HE-City = NUB!!!


Corihuayrachina:



I thought this city would develop better, but it lacks "real" Food for that. I begin to understand the aversion of the people here to plains-Cows and other 3F, 4F or even sometimes 5F tiles, they're simply weak! It will get a great city later though, and 22 BPT isn't that bad after all, is it?


Huamanga:



A cute little city in the Desert with some Spices, just to secure Stone for the Pyramids I failed ;D It will become better than it looks right now.


Vilcas:



Another Military city? Yes, this should become the HE-City, but with all the Jungle and cultural pressure, it developed so slowly that it's no good for that now. But it's still not that bad that I founded it, just look very closely at it, and you'll notice what this city will be good for. Got it? Yes: This city will be a riverside Levee IW-city that will put out more then 300 Hammers and chew out Wonders like the UN in under 10 turns! Atm it's good for nothing, but it has great potential for the future.


Vilcabamba:



A city working unimproved tiles and even Jungle? Please don't forget, that I just built the HGs and that I'm gonna whip this city down to Size 1 with the Granary very soon. It's planned to get another production city, of which I still have to little.


Vitcos:



Another city working unimproved tiles. This wasn't as planned. I didn't manage to get the Food from Hatty or Washington which I thought I would, and the Worers simply took to long to improve the land. Look at all the other cities and you'll see that I've not wasted very many Worer-Turns, my management was really well in this round and I always had a "sufficient" number of them (1.5 / city or more) . This shall once get a Commerce city, but it'll only become great in the very very end. Those last 3 cities I shouldn't have founded at all.


Andahuaylas:



Newly founded near zero developed city that once will become a nice production site.


Ica:



Newly founded city that isn't so bad, but I cannot even remember what good it was for, Commerce of course, but too medicore to be remembered.

That were the cities, a lot of work, I'll never do that again ;P Here are some other Screens, Tech first:



Tech Lead getting bigger. Only Mansa, Viccy, Sabrina and Roosevelt are "near" .


Points, Religions & Diplomacy:



That looks nice, doesn't it? ;D


Victory's Tab:



Not that far ahead with Land yet.


Graphs:




Demographics:



Paper thin Military? ;D


You'll have noticed till the end that I'm tired. This whole Writeup takes a lot of time, actually today I wrote at least 5-8h.

Sera

 

[Mikehendi]

Hey, just popping in to say that I very much enjoy your write-ups.

 

[Tabarnak]

Keep it up dude!

You are the main reason why i'm wandering around the civ4 S&T forum these days. I like how you write in details your strategies, but also how emotionnally!

Good luck at beating the ultimate high score HoF game.

 

[Keilah]

re: SoZ and capitulation

the capitulation mechanics are out there somewhere, old-timers like TMIT are always mentioning specific numbers about capping AIs. I'm not sure where the info is, though :/

remember that correlation is not causation! Just because AIs cap at around 110 war weariness doesn't mean that the war weariness causes them to capitulate. Just as likely, it's something like "Losing 2 cities causes 40 war weariness each and losing a load of troops causes 30 war weariness, for a total of 110. Losing those cities and troops is enough to make the AI capitulate, regardless of war weariness".

The possessive "its" does not get an apostrophe, as that would confuse it with the common conjunction "it's", which means "it is".
It's = It is. Its = belongs to it.

Why do you call Hatshepsut 'Sabrina'?

Thanks for the writeup, I know these things take loads of time, but we enjoy reading them =]

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I could have taken it with the Warrior to have the chance of a free tech

I didn't see anybody address this, so: you only have a chance at a free tech if you already have a settled city.

More specifically, you can only "pop" techs that you can research, and researching *any* tech requires a city. So if you move the warrior to the hut before settling, and the hut dice say "give him a tech", the technology chooser answers "sorry, roll again".

Once you were committed to founding your city on that initial hill, there was no way to get a technology from that hut.

 

[Manco Capac]

re: SoZ and capitulation

the capitulation mechanics are out there somewhere, old-timers like TMIT are always mentioning specific numbers about capping AIs. I'm not sure where the info is, though :/

remember that correlation is not causation! Just because AIs cap at around 110 war weariness doesn't mean that the war weariness causes them to capitulate. Just as likely, it's something like "Losing 2 cities causes 40 war weariness each and losing a load of troops causes 30 war weariness, for a total of 110. Losing those cities and troops is enough to make the AI capitulate, regardless of war weariness".

The possessive "its" does not get an apostrophe, as that would confuse it with the common conjunction "it's", which means "it is".
It's = It is. Its = belongs to it.

Why do you call Hatshepsut 'Sabrina'?

Thanks for the writeup, I know these things take loads of time, but we enjoy reading them =]

Search function is your friend...hmmm.

40.

This is the number that represents the capitulation threshold or war success in common terms.
In a war, each unit you kill worth 4 war success points.
Each unit destroyed while defending worths 3 war success points.
Each captured city worths 10 war success points.
Each development unit you capture (settler or worker) worths 1 war success point.

When you sum up to 40, then response called "You are joking, right?" is lift and capitulation is available as long you have twice as much of their lands.
Many cases, just capture two cities and kill a lot of units within with few losses, then you are in.
There is also the annoying message "We're fine on our own!", which means (s)he has sufficient power to feel safe from your onset (2/3 of your power ratio). Vassals are counted towards power ratio, thus provoking the ridiculous never giving in situtiation.

War weariness has almost no effect on the AI and SoZ built only has its merit on a cultural game or denying that wonder when going on a rampage. But still, better build more units to make the war shorter.

Sabrina Setlur = Seraiel's muse?

 

[Keilah]

Search function is your friend...hmmm.

i'm sure you meant nothing by it, but this irks me a bit. obviously i tried searching for it, but neither 'capitulation mechanics' nor 'vassal mechanics' did the trick. how did you find it?

 

[Manco Capac]

Well, that one comes from memory. I did some extensive read of many threads of the glorious days of CIV (2008-2009?), so I don't remember the exact source. Could be R_Rolo, DanF, TMIT, etc.

Search bar often led me to what I wanted, perhaps others where less lucky.

Wait, I'll see. Perhaps, it is less obvious I thought.

EDIT: Avoiding any other word than capitulation:

I looked into threads and yes it was less obvious, but I continued to read. Of course, it is easier to scroll down when you recognized the "content staff" of past days I admit. The last result of first page led me to TMIT post referring to interesting stuff. I observed he used war success term. If I didn't know its meaning, I normally do extended researches. I ended with this.

And I noticed I forgot to mention it is about a ratio of their war success and yours. Lame, am I?

 

[civvver]

I'm no expert on capitulation and war attitude rules by any means. But I don't believe war weariness has anything to do with it. Statue of zeus is nice to get simply so you don't have to face it later! But I don't think it's very good at slowing down the AI or making them capitulate sooner.

I believe capitulation only has to do with ratio of power, the proximity of your armies to their cities and war success. Power ratios are simple, look at the power graph, you need like two or three times their power for them to capitulate.

Proximity of armies, if you move a big ass army on the doorstep of their capital and you have high enough power rating sometimes that will force the capitulation. Conversely if you take all their mainland cities so they just have islands left, they'll feel safe surrounded by water and won't capitulate any more. This happened to me once on giant earth map. I had completely annihilated the Yue but they had like 8 small island cities. Every time I captured one he refused to give in. Eventually I put a stack next to one of his final islands and he capitulated, I guess fearing that I'd take the city otherwise.

War success is a strange thing. You get points for killing units, lose points for losing units and cities, but it's not that even. So if you burn four catapults and a couple axes on a city with only 3 archers defending you'll be negative success and the AI will think they're winning the war, even though losing a city is not really winning. I'm not sure how much war success has to do with capitulation directly, but it does have a lot to do with refusal to talk, which obviously you need to be able to talk to them to get a capitulation.

Why do you call Hatshepsut Sabrina? That's a nickname I can't connect any dots to.

Fantastic game so far. I'm stunned by the pace of research on deity, but I guess that's because a couple AI forge ahead and you trade around tech to keep pace. In my games I'm usually the one forging ahead. Keeps a good tech lead but the overall pace is much, much slower.

Edit: Tachywaxon posted the exact capitulation rules while I was typing, but hey I was close!

 

[Manco Capac]

Proximity of armies, if you move a big ass army on the doorstep of their capital and you have high enough power rating sometimes that will force the capitulation. Conversely if you take all their mainland cities so they just have islands left, they'll feel safe surrounded by water and won't capitulate any more. This happened to me once on giant earth map. I had completely annihilated the Yue but they had like 8 small island cities. Every time I captured one he refused to give in. Eventually I put a stack next to one of his final islands and he capitulated, I guess fearing that I'd take the city otherwise.

IIRC, to capitulate an AI, you have to possess a city in his/her mainlands (capital's continent), otherwise you receive the message "You are to far away!" something.

This reminds me...hmmm.

EDIT: this.

 

[Kid R]

Why do you call Hatshepsut Sabrina? That's a nickname I can't connect any dots to.

Seraiel explained this on the first page, Sabrina Setlur looks just like Hatty. Check Google images to confirm it's true!

 

[Seraiel]

Hey, so many replies since I was asleep That's nice

To the War-Success-Mechanics:

Have to read the threads Tachywaxon linked and have to do an analysis of them with two games, first this one, once the war against Pericles is reached, and the one where I oracled Feudalism, as I think, capitulation mechanics are more complex.

Civver points out some good facts I've also noticed in my games, sometimes it just takes one to move in attack-range of a city, and AI will capitulate, this must be a mechanic that wasn't mentioned by Tachywaxon, and in my Oracle Feudalism game, I beat Hatty down to 1 city with 1 Archer in it, I captured at least 4 of her cities and destroyed all units she had with moderate losses as the Checkers were already well promoted then, she still gave the answer "We're fine on our own", that's why I believe that there is also something like a "time-mechanic" . One cannot get a Vassal before at least 150T (2000 BC) have passed or something like that. Then, in this game, I blitzed Cyrus, he had two Vassals, I destroyed his SoD on T1 of the War and captured about 3 cities, still, he didn't capitulate until my SoD was in reach of his Capital, this refers to what Civver said. In the war against Pericles, I lost a lot of Cavs to Rifles and MGs, still, he capitulated very soon, maybe this is because of Civvers power-ratio-mechanic?

Anyway, make sure to follow the story further, and on the Hatty and Sabrina Setlur thing:

Hatty:



Sabrina:

Notice the similarities? Her nose looks exactly like the one from Hatty, her lips are similar, even her eyebrows match Hattys. I'm sure that if she'd put on that hat and some blue makeup on the eyelashes, one couldn't notice any difference

So now you know, Hatty in Reality is a german Singer with "awesome" D) Songs like "You don't love me"

And no Tachy, she's not my Muse, she's more like the execept oposite of that


---------

Next part of the Writeup going online within the hours. Cya

Seraiel

 

[Seraiel]

I'm back! XD I've left you with a superb overview over the Incan empire at 1000 BC, so you really should know its status very well now ;D But just to sum up: Checker-Rush and initial peaceful expansion are complete, Diplomacy looks awesome, I have to fear no wars at all as I'm pleased or even friendly with all leaders, cities have grown a lot and are well developed till this moment, specialization is going its way, only thing that is there is, that I'm a little behind with the production- / hammercities, but I couldn't do anything about that really, as there weren't simply not that many hills available on this map, and Workshops aren't good enough yet. I have a lot of very good Wonders, especially the MoM which I will need in extreme as you will see, only Wonder I'd have liked to have that I missed were the Mids, but they went so early on this map, that I had no chance at all.


Now here is the further plan until I start the GA, a point where everything will change:

• Keep Research up with the use of Failgold.
• Finally settle those islands (I should have done this way before).
• Get all Techs I don't have already while further developing my tech-lead.
• Begin on producing some Units (remember, my empire is Warrior-defended and my military is paperthin.
• Set everything up for the planned GA.

So here are the years 1000 - 770 BC!


980 BC, Caesar constructs the Shwedagon Paya. I get 700 from it.

Same turn, Roosevelt reaches CS. I'm not running Buro still and could have gotten it easily by trade now, so I realize that I've made a big mistake already twice in my games! Never ever research CS, AI will do it for you! I hope, that I've no internalized this and that you have also, should you ever try a Deity Points-Approach. 4600 wasted!


970 BC, I begin to notice, that maybe, it wasn't the best to make everybody Hinduist. They trade techs between each other, it's not funny. Sabrina already got everything now there is from Roosevelt, I didn't only loose my Monopoly, I've lost my tech-lead!
At least, I get another 1326 from Roosevelt constructing the Chichen Itza, a Wonder I had almost completed in Cuzco. Economy looks very very good atm, lots of for deficit Research, but even without it, Research would be stable at 60%! I have to expand more.
Best thing: Mansa was also constructing Chichen Itza, he has 1000 on his account, this will lead into a very nice trade:



Now this is what I'm talking about! 4.5k after the trade, this is gonna fuel my Research for over 20 turns, as I'm at -180 / turn with running 100% atm. Also, Mansa continued with Engineering after Machinery, something which I have seen often from AI till now, and, it's very good for me, because it'll mean, that I won't have to research Engineering myself! (I need it on the way to Medicine. )


960 BC, I whip hard again in all cities! I want those libraries as I'm going to reach Education soon, and I desperately need more Settlers for the Islands. There are Galleys already waiting and the land over there is alluvial, I'm late! This shows, that I'm far away from being a perfect player, I really messed up in the last Sessions, as you will see soonly, those Islands should have been settled some centuries ago!
Result of the hard Whips: A gain of over 30 , the Incan Empire is no performing an amazing 500+ / turn! This is the highest I have ever had in all of my games!

Here btw is a picture of the islands southwards from Hamburg:

Spoiler :

Looks really awesome, doesn't it? So much Seafood I'll need for Sushi, even Wheat, which I need desperately for my cities that are getting really large now and are shortly before running into Unhealthiness. Sheeps, Wales... Why haven't I settled there till now???

940 BC: I get depressed. 46 / turn out o trading Ressources, but how much more could I have gotten if I'd have gotten a great Prophet instead of a GM... Hinduism spreads to some cities every turn, chances were 50% but now they're dropping as Bombay also got the Colossus, so it's not likely I'll get a great Prophet next time too. This sucks!


930 BC - 900 BC: I get further by begging and trading techs. AI has some money again, this is a good sign.


890 BC: The game wants to funk me completely! After not having gotten a great Prophet but a stupid GM, I now get the "Hinduist Missionary Event", so Hinduism spreads to 7 cities in this round alone! Screw you, stupid game, I hate you! This is the first time I didn't go for a Shrine-Approach, and I already regret it so badly! It really tells me to not mix GP-Pools again!


Every turn, I buy the Worldmaps from Mansa, Caesar and Washington. They have Galleys very far away, and I don't wanna miss Circumnavigation on this map. Regrettably, there is always 1 tile missing to that and there seems to be no way to get it before Optics, but I have to play safe.


880 BC, I do a "blind-trade", Machinery for 225 to Pericles. He is only giving so little for it, because he's short before completing it! This shows the amount of work I put in my rounds, I check the trade-screen every turn at least twice and try out trades for every tech to every Civ every through the diplomacy Screen every turn! I really need more , even though you can't believe it, but 4.5k is used up really fast. Trades where I get the maximum amount possible for a tech, like this trade, are the ones I'm looking for, because I'm now in the phase, where I want to be as fast as possible while slowing down the AI as much as possible. This is, why I often perform the following "trick" :

If a Civ has some which I want, but it always gives its all for a tech, I try to make it perform a Revolution in addition. Let's say, the Civ was 5 turns away from reaching Machinery and has 300 , then it'll give 300 for the tech, but now, I put "revolutionize to [insert crappiest civic possible]" as an addition on the table and ask them again, what would make this trade work. If they now offer 250 + the Revolution, I'm happy, because this means, they will revolutionize and loose some turns, they will revolutionize again and again loose turns, they'll actually loose more turns than they gained through the trade (!) and still, I get my money XD .


870 BC: I've put enough Espionage on Roosevelt to see what he is researching. I'm friendly with him, so he'll trade everything with me he has. Getting those 30 EP through Courthouses was really a big step in the game, I now know from three Civs already what I'm going to get next and when.


860 BC, I reach Education! Again, this is a new record for my games, I never had Education this early. Maybe now, you'll not only notice the power of Oracle -> Currency again, but as you know what will follow now: I have to build those Universities for Oxford. Now imagine, how much the extra Production from the coming up GA will help there! This is really good timing!

I begin on researching Liberalism.


850 BC, Viccy starts her Wonderspam with the Angkor Wat. This is always a Wonder that AI tends to build quite fast, as I've decided to produce Settlers and Universities, there was was no way for me to get any Failgold from it. What a pity!


830 BC: After a long time of economical Recovery, a new Settler completes!

Same turn: The last theater needed for the heroic one completes! In Berlin, I've already stacked some for that one, with my usual "trick" to whip something with max-OF, then build Wealth, then chop some Forrests in addition. Building Wealth again saves those up to the point I insert the Globe Theater into the buildcue, so this time, it already starts with more than half of it being completed!


820 BC: Washington and Cyrus are going into WHEOOHRN, are we finally going to see some war in this overly peaceful round of Civ? XD

Same turn, I experience again, how much the AI trades behind my back. Everybody has got Paper already! I really have to watch out so that noone but me gets Circumnavigation, I have to trade maps with everybody every turn!

This costs me 450 . Relations to Mansa were too bad, so that he didn't want to trade his Worldmap (WM) with me, so I gifted him 200 and didn't get +1, I then gifted another 250 and got +1... This Circumnavigation seems to get more expensive than I thought...


810 BC: Next Wonder from Viccy! This time, it's the UoS! I get as little as 207 from it, really no capacities to be able to produce more of it, Settlers, Universities and national Wonders are more important than Failgold.

I also micromanage a lot during these turns, like, doing the Math for the GP Farm: What size does it have to be to work max Specialists during the GA? How do I still get the GP I need asap asap?

Also in 810 BC: Hamburg completes the NE! This is a great Moment inGame, because now, all I need to start the GA is a great Person, and that will arise in a few turns from the same city!


790 BC, another great Moment: My first unit other than a Checker completes, I produce the 1st HA! XD


780 BC: Frederick has settled the Wheat! Damn you gaylord Frederick! I wanted to have that spot, you could have settled anywhere else, your empire doesn't need Wheat, mine does!

I really ed up with settling those Islands, I made the decision, but I made it too late, and now, I'm gonna suffer for it! Basically the same as with the jungle-cities, now I've already funked up twice this round, oh, that's not true, I've funked up tripple times! Remember the research of CS although I knew AI would tech it soon!


770 BC: I discover Lizzy, aaaaaand: She has Wheat XD . Nice one XD

I get some further through techtrade, aaaaaaaand:


A great Scientist is born!


Make sure to follow the next Episode of Replay #3, which will come during the next hours, and will show "the real Power of the Golden Age of the Incan Empire under Rulage of Seraiel" !


Till then, cya!

 

[strijder20]

Very nice, I'm really impressed by your style of play and looking forward how you will get that insane 17K gold per turn.

By the way, is it possible you made a minor mistake here?

Spoiler :

Both workers are farming, and not chopping the jungle. Vitcos is growing, so it has to be working one of the jungle tiles. First chopping and then farming won't cost you any turns, but will give Vitcos an additional per turn when the jungle is chopped.

 

[Seraiel]

Very nice, I'm really impressed by your style of play and looking forward how you will get that insane 17K gold per turn.

By the way, is it possible you made a minor mistake here?

Spoiler :

Both workers are farming, and not chopping the jungle. Vitcos is growing, so it has to be working one of the jungle tiles. First chopping and then farming won't cost you any turns, but will give Vitcos an additional per turn when the jungle is chopped.

This is done by purpose. With so much Jungle around, there is a great chance, that the Jungle will regrow after having been chopped while building the farm. Then the farm lies under the Jungle and one has to chop it again . I once had that with a Pasture of Pigs.

And thx for the compliment

Sera

 

[Habitus]

IIRC, to capitulate an AI, you have to possess a city in his/her mainlands (capital's continent), otherwise you receive the message "You are to far away!" something.

This reminds me...hmmm.

EDIT: this.

IIRC a vassal's city count for this. I know having vassal's border the AI helps with capping too, thou not sure if its a set amount of land tiles that have to be shared (ie making the civ a land target)

 

[WastinTime]

This is done by purpose. With so much Jungle around, there is a great chance, that the Jungle will regrow after having been chopped while building the farm. Then the farm lies under the Jungle and one has to chop it again . I once had that with a Pasture of Pigs.

Sera

strijder20 is correct. It is impossible for a forest/jungle to grow in a tile where the worker is. You would have had to chop the Pig tile, move...leaving it empty, for anything to grow there.