Reply to the religion topics

[dreadknought]

Ok , Im very late on this post but I feel that I must bring out a few ideas and issues here on this subject. My personal belief has come down to a life long impasse that neither believes or disbelieves but is still waiting for a clear direction as it were.

cons

How did the human race come from just 2 people? Its clear early man and I add (very animal like ) early man existed that had very different skulls (sizes) from modern man

Why were dinosaurs here first and if the ark story is true why were so many old animals left out?

why has so many wars been stated in a faith promoting peace? I might add many Christians have throughout history killed non-believers as their duty though this is contrary to the beliefs of Christians

Many denominations believe that only their exact view is correct and only their exact view will lead to heaven. This means that they leave out many who have very similer views just because they are not in their denominations

This same concept means many people (beyond count) that never heard of the bible-God...ect....have no chance at getting to heaven. I have a problem that basicly good people who believed the trend of their times would be automatically condemed. In fact many of these people from history had no choice but to believe in that times religion

The conflicts between different types of faith is the root cause of most wars and violence throughout history.

Lastly, the argument of free choice. I would say that if free choice leads to many many people going to (you know where) then God didnt really do us a favor did he? I mean I would rather not have had free choice . I have no problem being directed to heaven instead of having to think about this all the time. I dont mind be told what to do as long as its clear and for my own good.

pros

Clearly on balance , the bible teaches good values

Many people would despair without their faith in God

Its hard to discount all the miracles-sightings-healings-ect...that have been recorded

We had to come from something

To look around you at the beauty of science and nature begs for a higher being (a guiding hand)

Without God is their really very much hope for man-kind to not destroy itself and this planet. If you look at what we are doing to the planet (rainforests-pollution-depleting everything) there seems to be little hope. In fact if God doesnt step in I think life will be unbearable in the next 100 years or so. We will either blow up the planet-use all it resoures- or fry ourselves(global warming) so we need some help.

I think most people will admit the world would be a difficult place to live without people believing in God (all churches gone and many people left with no morals in control even though I know some non-believers have good morals(they be way outnumbered)


In summery, its a tough choice for some. Dont believe and watch humanity destroy the planet or believe and put aside alot of valid questions and doubts. Im the type of person who cant just have blind faith but is scared by what that means for our future.

 

[Bose]

Very well written and thought out post Dreadknought, but aren't you boys sick of arguing over the same old $hit?

 

[andrewgprv]

Originally posted by dreadknought

In summery, its a tough choice for some. Dont believe and watch humanity destroy the planet or believe and put aside alot of valid questions and doubts. Im the type of person who cant just have blind faith but is scared by what that means for our future.

I don't believe humanity will destroy itself and the planet. Humanity has been maturing into a much more empathetic race . Just look at pre 1800's. We have made huge leaps, abolishing slavery and the fight against racism, equality of the sexes, overall acceptance of those different then ourselves, and an increasing awarness of our own planet and our effects on it.

I remain optomistic.

 

[naervod]

Originally posted by dreadknought
cons

How did the human race come from just 2 people? Its clear early man and I add (very animal like ) early man existed that had very different skulls (sizes) from modern man

Why were dinosaurs here first and if the ark story is true why were so many old animals left out?

why has so many wars been stated in a faith promoting peace? I might add many Christians have throughout history killed non-believers as their duty though this is contrary to the beliefs of Christians

Many denominations believe that only their exact view is correct and only their exact view will lead to heaven. This means that they leave out many who have very similer views just because they are not in their denominations

This same concept means many people (beyond count) that never heard of the bible-God...ect....have no chance at getting to heaven. I have a problem that basicly good people who believed the trend of their times would be automatically condemed. In fact many of these people from history had no choice but to believe in that times religion

The conflicts between different types of faith is the root cause of most wars and violence throughout history.

Lastly, the argument of free choice. I would say that if free choice leads to many many people going to (you know where) then God didnt really do us a favor did he? I mean I would rather not have had free choice . I have no problem being directed to heaven instead of having to think about this all the time. I dont mind be told what to do as long as its clear and for my own good.

Being a Lutheran I will respond for some of the questions.

First two questions- I believe in a combined theory of creation and evolution. I believe that god created the Earth and the organisms inhabiting it, but I believe from then on they evolved. I don't really believe in that much of the first part of the Bible (actually just Adam and Eve and the Ark).

In my view the Crusaders and others were not true Christians. They were under the influence of a corrupt Catholic Church. They met their fates in Hell.

In response to fourth and fifth I feel my denomination is the best, but I feel if a person is a good person and sticks to his beliefs, he will go to whatever heaven he believes in. I feel if someone lives a good athiest life, they will be able to ascend to a sort of limited heaven

I hope that all religions can work together to close the wounds of past religious wars and help to stop new ones peacefully.

Lastly, I feel that you don't necessarily have to follow the exact instructions of the church as long as you don't break the 10 Commandments. Everyone breaks some of the Commandments, I have, but you are able to be repented as still go to heaven (just don't take advantage of the ability to be forgiven, that's not what's its there for).

 

[dreadknought]

Originally posted by andrewgprv


I don't believe humanity will destroy itself and the planet. Humanity has been maturing into a much more empathetic race . Just look at pre 1800's. We have made huge leaps, abolishing slavery and the fight against racism, equality of the sexes, overall acceptance of those different then ourselves, and an increasing awarness of our own planet and our effects on it.

I remain optomistic.

Yes, no doubt we have improved in some ways but limiting population growth is not one of them. Millions are starving now-the last great forests on the planet are going-fish populations are going-fresh water supplies are going-and the oceans are turning into giant waste baskets. Many wild animal populations are gone and much of the earth top-soil is used up.Its simply this planet doesnt have the abliity to re-supply at the rate we are taking from it. No my friend, I cant be optomistic. We need help to control ourselves but will we get it?

 

[dreadknought]

Originally posted by naervod


Being a Lutheran I will respond for some of the questions.

First two questions- I believe in a combined theory of creation and evolution. I believe that god created the Earth and the organisms inhabiting it, but I believe from then on they evolved. I don't really believe in that much of the first part of the Bible (actually just Adam and Eve and the Ark).

In my view the Crusaders and others were not true Christians. They were under the influence of a corrupt Catholic Church. They met their fates in Hell.

In response to fourth and fifth I feel my denomination is the best, but I feel if a person is a good person and sticks to his beliefs, he will go to whatever heaven he believes in. I feel if someone lives a good athiest life, they will be able to ascend to a sort of limited heaven

I hope that all religions can work together to close the wounds of past religious wars and help to stop new ones peacefully.

Lastly, I feel that you don't necessarily have to follow the exact instructions of the church as long as you don't break the 10 Commandments. Everyone breaks some of the Commandments, I have, but you are able to be repented as still go to heaven (just don't take advantage of the ability to be forgiven, that's not what's its there for).

I think you hit on one of my biggest problems here. The (I feel) parts is what every one does. In fact I would say that no 2 people have the exact same beliefs. Every person takes the bible and sort of makes it fit something that makes sense to them. Some believe every word and some think it figurative and some believe the parts they feel are the most important.

I cannot say the Lutheran Church is better than the Catholics or any denomination nor can I say its worse. All have many great people of that Im sure but to set up one style of faith as better is wrong. To say yours is best is to cast judgement on others.

As to the crusaders point, well they were willing to die in battle for their belief in God. Are we? They would say they were better christians than any around today because of that. Not saying they were right. but I recognize that if you die for a cause you probaly feel strongly about it.

You said you dont really believe in that much of the first part of the bible which seems to have alot of pretty important stuff in it so Im not sure were too much different.

 

[dreadknought]

Originally posted by Bose
Very well written and thought out post Dreadknought, but aren't you boys sick of arguing over the same old $hit?

Well I actually try not to worry about things most of the time after all I cant really change anything.

 

[Zarn]

Originally posted by naervod


Being a Lutheran I will respond for some of the questions.

Ahhh... heretic Class C j/k

Originally posted by naervod


In my view the Crusaders and others were not true Christians. They were under the influence of a corrupt Catholic Church. They met their fates in Hell.

I don't consider the Crusaders or warrior popes Chrisitan or Catholic. It's like saying Hussein is a Muslim/ Sunni. Everyone knows he really isn't one.

 

[dreadknought]

Originally posted by Zarn


Ahhh... heretic Class C j/k



I don't consider the Crusaders or warrior popes Chrisitan or Catholic. It's like saying Hussein is a Muslim/ Sunni. Everyone knows he really isn't one.

So you seem to be saying that anyone in history that used religion as a reason for war was not christian even though many holy people from the bible asked God for help in battle and God often took sides in those wars, at least it says he did in the bible, helping to win many an ancient fight. God took sides in war in the bible but christians are taught to turn the other cheek? You may be right , who can say.

 

[HighlandWarrior]

Originally posted by dreadknought
why has so many wars been stated in a faith promoting peace? I might add many Christians have throughout history killed non-believers as their duty though this is contrary to the beliefs of Christians

How is one a Christian when he does not follow the Christian beliefs? Everyone sins. Not everyone repents his sins. Just because the Catholic Church killed many people doesnt mean those in power were actually Christians. They were democrats and republicans in robes...

 

[floppa21]

Originally posted by HighlandWarrior

Everyone sins.

Wrong. Tiring. Who are you to say everyone sins? By who's standards is everyone a sinner?

 

[onejayhawk]

Originally posted by floppa21
Wrong. Tiring. Who are you to say everyone sins? By who's standards is everyone a sinner?

In your case, would you like to be measured by your own standards for yourself? Would you pass that test? If on the last day you were given unlimited time, perfect honesty and candor and total recall, could you apply your own standards to yourself and go to heaven?

I submit only the selfdeluded and the dangerously insane believe there is no such thing as sin. Even yourself.

J

 

[HighlandWarrior]

Originally posted by floppa21


Wrong. Tiring. Who are you to say everyone sins? By who's standards is everyone a sinner?

1st amendment covers the 1st question.

God, Jesus covers the second question.

He asked a religious question i gave a religious answer. Who are you to say i am wrong?

 

[dreadknought]

Originally posted by HighlandWarrior


How is one a Christian when he does not follow the Christian beliefs? Everyone sins. Not everyone repents his sins. Just because the Catholic Church killed many people doesnt mean those in power were actually Christians. They were democrats and republicans in robes...

The problem being that everyone sees christian beliefs in their own way in their own slant. I used to work with a very nice man who was very christian and devoted. He went to church 3 times a week(at least), preached to all of us,never cursed,never lied and talked about Jesus and believing in him all the time.

I envied his faith and admired it.

However he was single and often would go out with different women and proceded to have one night stands with them from time to time. Hmm......Sex out of wed- lock.....I wondered about this in his belief system.

This seemingly perfect man (more so than I) had no mis-givings on this one at all. I asked him if his relations were ok with God and he said , oh yeah, God knows Im a man and that was that. He felt it was fine to sleep with whoever he wonted as long as he believed the right things and if it was a sin hed be forgiven.

More of a gentle christian man I have never met since but his beliefs were slightly different than most christians. My point being that many of those long gone people believed what was right to them at that time as we shape what is right to us in this time.

 

[Straybow]

Originally posted by dreadknought
Why were dinosaurs here first and if the ark story is true why were so many old animals left out?

Who says they were here "first" (whatever that means), and who says they were "left out?"

The fossil record is notoriously spotty. A species can disappear for long ages and be rediscovered (like the coelocanth thought extinct 300+ mya). The flood story doesn't guarantee that the species preserved on the ark found a habitat that allowed them to survive afterwards.

why has so many wars been stated in a faith promoting peace? …

*sigh* This is politics and personal greed, not religion. Next question.

Many denominations believe that only their exact view is correct and only their exact view will lead to heaven…

If by "many" you are including numerically insignificant splinter groups… maybe. But no, very few think that denominations with differing views are somehow disqualified from heaven. Few errors are damnable offenses.

This same concept means many people (beyond count) that never heard of the bible-God… ect… have no chance at getting to heaven…

God is able to judge rightly, and whatever applies to people who've never heard doesn't apply to you, who has heard enough to be accountable for your response. True?

The conflicts between different types of faith is the root cause of most wars and violence throughout history.

Asked and answered; please move along.

Lastly, the argument of free choice. I would say that if free choice leads to many many people going to (you know where) then God didnt really do us a favor did he? I mean I would rather not have had free choice . I have no problem being directed to heaven instead of having to think about this all the time. I dont mind be told what to do as long as its clear and for my own good.

Then do what you're told, and quit b!tching.
Seriously though, free will governs choice, and choice determines consequences. If you determine which consequences you want, and then guide you choices accordingly, you will not find that blind faith is the result.

Its hard to discount all the miracles-sightings-healings ect… that have been recorded

Well, actually it is easy. Most are throwbacks to paganism. In the Reformation the English hauled away whole cartloads of "fragments of the true cross," enough bones of various saints to make them more than one body apeice, etc.

Jesus did miracles in response to faith, and as a testimony of the power of God, not as an opportunity to enshrine the place where it occured or the person who believed and received a miracle. Sensationalism is an attitude which Jesus did not honor.

To look around you at the beauty of science and nature begs for a higher being (a guiding hand)

Yes, and that is as valid a starting point as any.

Without God is their really very much hope for man-kind to not destroy itself and this planet…

Self preservation is a wonderful drive. We are in more danger from natural threats than from the doom-and-gloom causes celebres (or whatever the plural form should be).

Im the type of person who cant just have blind faith but is scared by what that means for our future.

Then don't settle for blind faith. Start at a point where you can believe, then look for the next step. The journey is just as important as the goal.

 

[Straybow]

As for the coworker in your example, if you feel there was hypocrisy there then you have a choice how to respond.

Either one man's sin somehow disproves the whole deal, or you know enough to judge rightly and therefore confirm the higher standard of which he falls short.

Which makes more sense?

 

[Kilroy]

Thunderfall ought to rename "Off-Topic" to "Stupid Religious Flame-Bait Posts go Here."

 

[Stapel]

Originally posted by dreadknought


pros

Clearly on balance , the bible teaches good values

The bible also teaches us immoral things: Sacrificing a kid when a voice in your head tells you to do so, condemning homosexual acts, obeying a cruel occupying force...

Many people would despair without their faith in God

Many people commit the most horrible things on behalf of their faith (like flying planes into buildings).

Its hard to discount all the miracles-sightings-healings-ect...that have been recorded

Replacing 10.000 miracles for just one that has created these 10.000 miracles seems a bit childish to me.

We had to come from something

Yep, but when we come from God, God has to come from something

To look around you at the beauty of science and nature begs for a higher being (a guiding hand)

To look around at the afwulness of african 2-year old kids dying from aids and hunger, while 16-year old mammy is raped for the 10th time in her life, begs for the non existance of a higher being.

Without God is their really very much hope for man-kind to not destroy itself and this planet. If you look at what we are doing to the planet (rainforests-pollution-depleting everything) there seems to be little hope. In fact if God doesnt step in I think life will be unbearable in the next 100 years or so. We will either blow up the planet-use all it resoures- or fry ourselves(global warming) so we need some help.

That is just nonsense. It is not that bad!

I think most people will admit the world would be a difficult place to live without people believing in God (all churches gone and many people left with no morals in control even though I know some non-believers have good morals(they be way outnumbered)

Excuse me! This is an absolute load of crap. The fact you even assume most people will admit with it, makes it even worse! Let me get you out of your dream: The AVERAGE christian has a far LOWER set of morals than the average atheist (or agnosti-whatever). Saying we are outnumbered is nonsense! Don't you see how much hatred is spread out by people that call themselves christians? Don't you see christians condemning people with other lifestyles all the time? I know not all christians do. And I understand true christians will say it is not in the lien of christ to condemn people. But fact is that many do so! In public and without hesitation! It is my view that a majority of people calling themselves christians do so.

Why do you think people will be left without moral controls when not believing in God. You say some non-believers have good morals. Well, I can tell you: Many have! Trust me: We don't need God for a good set of morals!

With all churches gone, humanity would loose a great deal of art and culture, but also a huge covering-up institution for lechery.
Welfare organisations can exist without being linked to the church.

Maybe I go a bit to far in my words. I do not seek to insult christians! I have been one for quite some years. But, as all of you can conclude from my post, it annoys me when people think morality is positively linked to faith.

Cheers,
Stapel

Edit: some typos

 

[floppa21]

@onejayhawk - I have done things that I have regretted doing in the past and I have made a conscious effort to not repeat them. That to me is as good as the Blood of Christ. Now if I do stupid things and I continue to do them, THAT would be a sin. Trying to correct and not repeat the mistake washes away the sin better than any crucifixion ever did for me. I wouldn't say there is no such thing as sin, but spouting 'Everyone is a born sinner' is BS IMO. Because I am alive I am a sinner? How quaint. How convenient.

@kilroy - YOU ought to rename yourself to "Stupid Pointless Spammer"... If you have something to contribute, then do it. Otherwise, stop wasting your own time you jackhole.

 

[floppa21]

To go a little further onejayhawk, it is a SIN to dwell on the past. If you make a mistake, atone by not repeating it in the future, and move on. If you do not care, then repeat it all you want. Religion tells you you are a sinner. Isn't is sinful to obsess on BS rather than try to constructively fix it? PRAY for forgiveness? Ain't no one gotta forgive me but me. It doesn't matter if Christ died on the cross for me and forgave my sins. If I don't forgive myself, Christ might as well be a Rockette.