Republic and Trade

[Unser Giftzwerg]

First of all, my apologies. I should've clarified who I was directing this to. Though it immediately followed your post, I was not singling you out. I was directing this to those who have been using the real world to justify their positions on the attitude of the masses towards Republic. Kael's (and the team's) storyline takes priority. It's their call on whether or not different races will have different attitudes towards different kinds of governments. But if they set it up so that it would logically seem that a race would respond differently, they have to be consistent about it.

And yes, gameplay should take the most priority... however, what's the gameplay logic behind the decision to force people into Republic? In a game where diversity and choosing different paths with different races having different bonuses and weaknesses has been the gameplay design, how is this not an obstruction to that? It seems that the case made for keeping Republic as is (or strengthening its effects as you suggested) has been made entirely based on historical arguments and not on the basis of gameplay.

My appologies too, as I did presume your post was a rebuttal to mine.

I agree with your first paragraph, and take the point further. Gameplay takes priority over historical precidence. But it also take precidence over fantasy stories supplied by every poster here save one: Kael. There you have your one-and-only judge as to the 'consistancy' between backstory and game mechanics.

That being said, I am not here to defend Republic per se. I just want to be persuaded with solid reasons and better alteternatives first. In that regard, I feel the conversation has evolved to more fertile ground. Somep posters have observed that most every AI civ gravitates to Republic in the end-game. Is that the optimal design goal? Well, probably not.

So how to arrive at a bit more variety? For my money the best approach is the comprehensive approach. Before fiddling with Republic look at al the government civics and make sure the whole thing meshes.

For instance, I still almost never find a reason to use City States. Part of that is that CS 'gives you what you pay for'. But a lot of it is also due to the fact God King and Aristocracy are available at almost the same point in history. I pseronally like Aristocracy's Royal Guards now ... but what if you do not have Horses? What about the maintenence costs for the various Gov't civics? There should be interesting choices at each L/M/H price point too, yes?

That's the approach I'd favor. Take one more comprehensive look at the whole branch and iron out the whole thing. If that involves a re-work of Republic, fine and dandy. But it's gotta be done with the mindset that this is to produce the Gov't civics is their final form. The Team has a whole passel of new phases to work on, too.

 

[chocmushroom]

The penalty of Republic is out of control. Realism or Fantasy has nothing to deal with this, it's a problem of gameplay balance. Once Republic is discovered each and all civs will switch to it sooner or later. This is the antithesis of strategy. Republic should be toned down a lot to say the least... maybe depending on your alignement.

YES, that's my point. There is no point not having republic as you want to save money with another civ, no point having God-King as you want the big producer, as you cannot due to all the computer having republic.
I make the choice if to have public healers or not depending on cost and benifit, or do I want sacrifice the weak, there is a choice.

That's the approach I'd favor. Take one more comprehensive look at the whole branch and iron out the whole thing. If that involves a re-work of Republic, fine and dandy. But it's gotta be done with the mindset that this is to produce the Gov't civics is their final form. The Team has a whole passel of new phases to work on, too.

Thank you. I think we need a consensuses that it needs to be changed for game balance.

I myslef think that republic is a big unballancer in the game, but do also see that others in the branch need to be re-adjusted, but Republic is the main one as it inhibbits game-play. I'm saying that it does need a big adjustment, but for short-term fix, just reduce some of republics negative modifiers and then work on making them more balanced.

 

[uberfish]

Another way to address the annoyance factor of republic would be to code some of the AI leaders for whom republic would be out of character anyway (especially the Evil ones) not to use it, thus making the unhappiness penalty less severe.

I like Sureshot's ideas too.

 

[sgrealis]

should do a Magocracy to replace republic, something like:
+4 xp for new arcane units
-25% distance penalty (leaders are mages and can be everywhere!)
+1 happy from mage guilds, libraries
+10% science
Available with Knowledge of the Ether

I like this, but rather than having adepts be considered leaders (they are mages-in-training), move this civic until a civ knows both Summoning and Sorcery (can train both mages and conjurers). I don't know the game mechanics of making a civic dependent upon the knowledge of 2 techs, but I think it would fit the flavor better.

Or, perhaps remove the +1 happy from libraries and make it the following:
+1 happy if a mage or conjurer is present in the city
+2 happy if an archmage or summoner
-2 happy if no mage guild is built in the city.

 

[Khai]

I really like the Magocracy idea...both of them

 

[Endovior]

I like this, but rather than having adepts be considered leaders (they are mages-in-training), move this civic until a civ knows both Summoning and Sorcery (can train both mages and conjurers). I don't know the game mechanics of making a civic dependent upon the knowledge of 2 techs, but I think it would fit the flavor better.

Or, perhaps remove the +1 happy from libraries and make it the following:
+1 happy if a mage or conjurer is present in the city
+2 happy if an archmage or summoner
-2 happy if no mage guild is built in the city.

I'd suggest Arcane Lore instead of Summoning AND Sorcery... it's easier to implement, and more reasonable.

-2 Happy for no Mage Guild? Sounds a little harsh. I'd say -1 at most.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Arcane Lore already gives the Scholarship civic. Not to say that it can't give two civics, but just reminding you.

 

[Endovior]

IIRC, Vanilla grants two civics (Free Speech and Free Religion) with Liberalism, so I'm not particularly concerned. Plus, it's a lot less hacked then requiring two techs.

Alternatively, it could require Strength of Will.