Request for a Civ4: BtS "Intermediate" Succession Game
- Thread starter Jamesds
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Jamesds
Great Scientist
ah, thanks for telling me - I thought I could just change the 'postcount=' but I was wrong
Putchuco
Addictionado
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- Jul 31, 2006
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Perfect now, great job, this makes it easier to find and check the various approaches.
Yep, I agree
Here's a suggestion for a dotmap, based on the assumption that our second city is the SW Pig City that Pawelo built (I'm going from his save, since I like it best). It doesn't contain many essential changes from Pawelo's suggestions, some cities in the south have been shifted to cover more grassland tiles, and the Green City to the SE has been moved since it was wasting a plains tile:
Spoiler :
LeeT911
Eloquent Silence
Hey people, I'm interested in joining this game if it's at all possible. It looks like a good setup, and the comparison/analysis you're doing seems good for learning the game (I've only been playing Civ4 for three weeks, and mostly RFC). If you agree to let me join, I'll wait until we have a common save to play from before starting. In other words, I'll wait for after the first vote. It seems you are all continuing individually for now. I've read all the spoilers, so I probably shouldn't play from the initial start save.
If you would rather not have another player join mid-game, I'll understand and won't mind at all. In any event, I have a few questions.
1) If you use Solver's patch, do you need to constantly update your dll? It seems there are fixes pretty much every day.
2) It would be nice to include civic choices in the results table. It's not marked explicitly, but some of you researched bronze working and others did not, so some are running slavery and others are not. This represents a hidden advantage in being able to chop/whip if necessary. Other things to add would be science rate, next tech being researched, and time to completion. (None of this is meant as a knock. I appreciate the amount of effort made in compiling the results.)
If you would rather not have another player join mid-game, I'll understand and won't mind at all. In any event, I have a few questions.
1) If you use Solver's patch, do you need to constantly update your dll? It seems there are fixes pretty much every day.
2) It would be nice to include civic choices in the results table. It's not marked explicitly, but some of you researched bronze working and others did not, so some are running slavery and others are not. This represents a hidden advantage in being able to chop/whip if necessary. Other things to add would be science rate, next tech being researched, and time to completion. (None of this is meant as a knock. I appreciate the amount of effort made in compiling the results.)
Zetetic Apparat
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2006
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- 276
If we're going to attack China, when depends on where any Iron is found (which with Pawelo's techs we're likely to know soonish), right?
If we're lucky with that, Sheep City could be our third city and Beijing as early as our fourth. I certainly agree with frob's city placement in the south.
Given that we're limited in wonder production, we can't hope for Great Library or Oracle to help us compete technology-wise. If we do focus on a fairly early assault on China, then we really can't afford do this at the expense of Writing and Libraries. It's always my fear that I'll end up like Monty.
Edit: Yes, I'll add more game-economics stats next round, incl. whatever-per-turn. I'll improve the tech thing. Civics, or rather changes, isn't a bad idea.
If we're lucky with that, Sheep City could be our third city and Beijing as early as our fourth. I certainly agree with frob's city placement in the south.
Given that we're limited in wonder production, we can't hope for Great Library or Oracle to help us compete technology-wise. If we do focus on a fairly early assault on China, then we really can't afford do this at the expense of Writing and Libraries. It's always my fear that I'll end up like Monty.
Edit: Yes, I'll add more game-economics stats next round, incl. whatever-per-turn. I'll improve the tech thing. Civics, or rather changes, isn't a bad idea.
Hackapell
Rhetorician
Lurker's comment
What do you mean,"limited in wonder production?" YOu have great wonder production! let the industrious Qin build some wonder, then take then using the Axes you built instead of the wonder
What do you mean,"limited in wonder production?" YOu have great wonder production! let the industrious Qin build some wonder, then take then using the Axes you built instead of the wonder
Jamesds
Great Scientist
That's great, nice to have you on board, Lee. We agreed on a maximum of 8, so you can take the last space
.Actually, I wasn't aware of the multiple fixes
. So, I guess they are adding to it all the time being that there is so much to fix. In that case, I should download the latest Unofficial Patch before the next round, and we can all update to the same version.No, this is great Lee - thanks for your suggesstions. Most of us have never played an SG before, and I have never led one either, so all the help we get makes this SG better for all of us!
Zetetic Apparat: consider not using one gigantic table with all the data, I can see it getting very crowded as the game progresses, with an extra player and lots of data. Maybe have a couple of tables? Your job is becoming even more important now
. If it is too much work, I will help with some parts if you need.Iron is good, but not essential. Axemen+catas (or macemen+catas) eat Prince AIs for breakfast. We need ca 15 units to form a beachhead (5 axes + 3 sword/axe + 2 spearmen + 5 catas) and ca 3-5 extra units per city we take after that. (Perhaps add 5 extra catas to the total since Qin in protective).
Definitely no wonders! We have no stone/marble and are not industrious.
Oracle 150
= 2 spearmen + 2 catapultsPyramids 450
= 6 axemen + 6 catapults (!!)Great Library 350
= 6 axemen + 3 catapultsTOTAL: 2 spearmen + 12 axemen + 11 catapults = Our invasion army
I think Hackapell said it best:
Lurker's comment
What do you mean,"limited in wonder production?" YOu have great wonder production! let the industrious Qin build some wonder, then take then using the Axes you built instead of the wonder
Land is Power. Land is Tech. Land is Victory.If we do focus on a fairly early assault on China, then we really can't afford do this at the expense of Writing and Libraries. It's always my fear that I'll end up like Monty.
Putchuco
Addictionado
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2006
- Messages
- 248
HOW IN THE WORLD DID YOU DO THE MARVELOUS DOTMAP?! WOW!Here's my two cents on the placement:
- Floodplain City:
-- since it is not on the coast, we can't build a lighthouse here,
and therefore we can pretty much forget the three beach tiles in the west
-- I would agree not to build on the floodplain tile itself
-- wouldn't it make more sense to build this city 1 tile NW of the spice,
which would give us: ocean access -> lighthouse, lots of beach tiles
(including from the other side of the channel), and reduces pressure
on the 'Cyan City'.
-- I could imagine building the Maori wonder here and gain an insane
number of hammers
- Cyan City:
-- the tile 1 NE of the spice is also very attractive to me
-- it would include also many beach tiles, the copper
- ClamFish City
-- would therefore move one tile N
The overlap between Babylon, Cyan and ClamFish would be vastly reduced IMHO.
GreenCity is a perfect placement I think.
I'll try to post a dotmap later today for the rest, as this is getting too complicated for my little brain after the above 4 cities...
Totally agree with this and the fear of the Cho-Ko-Nus was with me from the moment I saw who our 1st neighbor is. Since then I waking up at night imagining that our next neighbors might as well be Julius and Shaka...
Jamesds
Great Scientist
Yes, seems a beaching is in place for China. This should be done before we colonise the whole continent, but after we have built a few more cities.
Definitely no wonders! We have no stone/marble and are not industrious.
Oracle 150
Pyramids 450
Great Library 350
TOTAL: 2 spearmen + 12 axemen + 11 catapults = Our invasion army
Land is Power. Land is Tech. Land is Victory.
Yes, I see your point. So what about the boats to carry them? This will be about 4 Galleys to land half of the beaching party, and then the other half. They can then pillage some clams/fish if the cities are big enough, to stop massive unit production.
About the cyan city, why should that be last? I agree that Pawel's city is quite good, but shouldn't the yellow city be NW from the current placement? That was what I was thinking initially. Then a slight reshuffle could optimise it. Are you able to export that as a GIMP file? Or could you maybe PM it to me please? Maybe the GIMP can open it...
Thanks
If you have Paintshop Pro v5.0 or higher I can send you the files I used. It uses 13 layers (for each city and text) with some transparency.Good thinking with the Moai Statues. This is a good option
. However in that case I suggest scrapping Cyan City and leaving ClamFish where it is. The reason I don't want to move ClamFish is that it is our best bet for an Early GP farm (2 seafood!) and it needs the copper for production of a lighthouse+library+market (so we can run specialists)The danger is compounded if Qin gets the Oracle->Metalcasting slingshot and ends up one tech from machinery. So we should get going soonTotally agree with this and the fear of the Cho-Ko-Nus was with me from the moment I saw who our 1st neighbor is. Since then I waking up at night imagining that our next neighbors might as well be Julius and Shaka...
[EDIT]
Yep. I'm thinking 4 galleys and 3 triremes. The triremes guard the galleys (I've heard a lot about AI trireme spam in BtS, and it would be terrible to lose loaded galleys) and then procede to pillage Qins fisheries. If we go really grand, we could dispatch an additional two galleys+1 trireme to do a coastal raid/raze against a less guarded city (of course, this would cost an extra 250
or so). Anything to reduce his whipping potential as quickly as possible. I've heard the BtS AI whips like crazy.We are looking at an expensive invasion. Due to the fact that we need a lot of troops against a Protective BtS AI (more unit-happy than Warlords) and thus more galleys to ship them, and therefore more trireme guards (against the AI trireme spam). Of course, naval invasions are always ca 150% more expensive in hammers invested, which is why I hate isolated starts
With the dotmap I gave it would be last because it has such poor growth (no irrigation, no seafood) and few tiles. I am open to moving around the northern cities, as long as we keep as many tiles as possible covered, don't settle on the floodplains, and manage to keep ClamFish city as it is (we need a GP farm).
Here's an alternative dotmap:
If the GIMP can open .psp files then it should work. Unfortunately PSP can't export to the GIMP format (AFAIK), so the only other way would be to send it as a .bmp, but that would lose the layering.
Jamesds
Great Scientist
Yep. I'm thinking 4 galleys and 3 triremes. The triremes guard the galleys (I've heard a lot about AI trireme spam in BtS, and it would be terrible to lose loaded galleys) and then procede to pillage Qins fisheries. If we go really grand, we could dispatch an additional two galleys+1 trireme to do a coastal raid/raze against a less guarded city (of course, this would cost an extra 250
We are looking at an expensive invasion. Due to the fact that we need a lot of troops against a Protective BtS AI (more unit-happy than Warlords) and thus more galleys to ship them, and therefore more trireme guards (against the AI trireme spam). Of course, naval invasions are always ca 150% more expensive in hammers invested, which is why I hate isolated starts
Yes, it is tough
. The triemes will certainly be required, I forgot about defending them. Will this invasion be too expensive, or will it always be worth it? We will be taking land from 1 AI, but I'm sure there is more land out there on other islands, which might be more worth our time and resources than an expensive war. Maybe we should leave this war until the middle stages of the game, until we are developed enough to build units without heavily penalising our development. By then we could have colonised several islands and be quite large anyway. Just some thoughts .OK, I now agree with you. In my game I hadn't explored the top part of the island, so ClamFish City wasn't in mind. I would then be in favour of scrapping cyan city, since it would allow ClamFish city to have complete access to the Copper and two seafood. Cyan city wouldn't even be worth building IMO - no resources and poor terrain for growth, it would be stunting the growth of the Babylon and ClamFish before it did any good.
EDIT: I notice in the alternative version, it would also overlap heavily with yellow city. It just wouldn't be worth it IMO. I never build cities that close unless it could really support itself on a few good tiles.
Yes, it seems the GIMP can open .psp files (Paint Shop Pro), hopefully with layers too. I would like to experiment with it
LeeT911
Eloquent Silence
Thank you for letting me join.
Some thoughts about the (future) war. How many cities do we plan on building before going to war? That's a pretty big army outlined above. To build it quickly we would need more production centers. More cities means more maintenance costs, and the big army will further drain finances. I can see that Beijing is a prime spot, but it will take a lot of time and money to get geared up to take it. To me, it seems like this is commiting to war too early. Our continent is big enough for quite a few cities, we could fill it up and go from there.
If war really is on the table, a priority should be scouting the Chinese city that is controlling all that seafood. We need to see if it is built on hill, if there are walls, how many defenders, and if there are any suitable landing sites next to it. Alternatively, we could go with a smaller army and take only the seafood (one city) in a sneak attack, then use the army to defend our holdings until peace can be made.
Some thoughts about the (future) war. How many cities do we plan on building before going to war? That's a pretty big army outlined above. To build it quickly we would need more production centers. More cities means more maintenance costs, and the big army will further drain finances. I can see that Beijing is a prime spot, but it will take a lot of time and money to get geared up to take it. To me, it seems like this is commiting to war too early. Our continent is big enough for quite a few cities, we could fill it up and go from there.
If war really is on the table, a priority should be scouting the Chinese city that is controlling all that seafood. We need to see if it is built on hill, if there are walls, how many defenders, and if there are any suitable landing sites next to it. Alternatively, we could go with a smaller army and take only the seafood (one city) in a sneak attack, then use the army to defend our holdings until peace can be made.
We have pigs and seafood.
Unfortunately we have no pre-calendar happiness, which really sucks. We have to start whipping early so the 
doesn't ruin us (better 5 whips over 50 turns than no whips in 40 turns then 5 in 10, if you know what I mean.. the decay is your friend).Or we need hereditary rule. This would really solve our problems since hereditary rule allows us to whip military units with no unhappines (i.e. +1
and +1).Yes. I agree with you both. We should not rush into war. We should scout more first. Getting sailing is a priority. We need scout triremes out ASAP.
If Qins land sucks and the island to the east is nice, then no war. And vice versa, if the eastern island is all desert apart from that coast (or has e.g. tokugawa on it
) then it's worth investing roughly 1500 into conquering Qin.Cost breakdown:
8 axemen = 280
8 swordsmen = 320
10 catapults = 400
4 spearmen = 140
4 triremes = 200
4 galleys = 200
1540
(We don't need to assemble the entire force before the invasion. But it should be at ca 60% when we invade and we should be adding units by whipping/chopping while the fighting is going on. This army would 110% guaranteed wipe out a Prince AI in Warlords. I cannot promise the same in BtS, so please feel free to criticize!
)His cities should yield at least 5
/turn each, so if he has 4-6 then we will have our back in at most 60-75 turns. After that it's all profit.However, Code of Laws must be researched by the time the Chinese War is over, if we decide to do it. The maintenance will destroy us otherwise.
Yep. But his pavilions (+35%
) will make life hell in that small captured city unless we quickly resume the war afterward (I'm assuming he'll have drama at that time).
Putchuco
Addictionado
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2006
- Messages
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Thanks
Yes, yes, and YES!
Jamesds
Great Scientist
Yes, yes, and YES!
And the GIMP supports .psp file formats, so I wouldn't mind a copy too
About the war, yes it will be worth it IF (and only if) we can't expand any more by other means - i.e. colonising other islands.
frob2900 said:
I should think so, the city would flip not much later, and there would be too many riots. We would have to capture at least the next city to get peace in Beijing.
pawelo
Emperor
Wow, great job intra-day discussing every aspect.
It almost made me feel sorry I took a day off - at work I would have hooked pretty closely to the discussion
OK, let's begin.
First of all, great work frob on city replacing - I like your last plans and concur @ 100%. Also, great proposal Putchuco - it's the best possible compromise between my idea ( I hate building cities one spot from the coast ) and frob's one. I go along with it.
I agree with frob on chopping/whipping ( well, rather whipping then chopping ) and would go for Green and Sheep cities first for strong invasion forces. I am ok with planned invasion force, though my military has never been a strong side in my games ( I'm rather culture/tech player 
).
So, on the tech side, assuming that we start with my save ( ) we have to go mysticism/fishing/sailing line and then beelining construction for cats. Also, we have to get IW / Metal Casting for trireme escort ( and maybe a sword... ).
We have to get the 2nd pig tile working, so mysticism / chop monument / wait a while / pasture and
Hey, almost forgot, welcome LeeT911!
See you tomorrow morning ( gotta get some sleep )
It almost made me feel sorry I took a day off - at work I would have hooked pretty closely to the discussion
OK, let's begin.
First of all, great work frob on city replacing - I like your last plans and concur @ 100%.
Also, great proposal Putchuco - it's the best possible compromise between my idea ( I hate building cities one spot from the coast ) and frob's one. I go along with it.I agree with frob on chopping/whipping ( well, rather whipping
then chopping ) and would go for Green and Sheep cities first for strong invasion forces. I am ok with planned invasion force, though my military has never been a strong side in my games ( I'm rather culture/tech player ).So, on the tech side, assuming that we start with my save (
) we have to go mysticism/fishing/sailing line and then beelining construction for cats. Also, we have to get IW / Metal Casting for trireme escort ( and maybe a sword... ). We have to get the 2nd pig tile working, so mysticism / chop monument / wait a while / pasture and
Hey, almost forgot, welcome LeeT911!
See you tomorrow morning ( gotta get some sleep
)
LeeT911
Eloquent Silence
I agree about not settling on floodplains. However, I also dislike settling on resources and settling one tile from the coast. I actually like the placement of your city on the hill. It's not the best land since it lacks food resources, but for a commerce town it will do early on.
We will need to chop a monument here as well, to get the flood plains in our borders. I would irrigate the two flood plains to provide rapid early growth, and mine the plains hill to get a granary in a reasonable amount of time (faster growth = faster towns). Then we can cottage the five grassland tiles (one under the jungle), and because the irrigated floodplains give us extra food, we can cottage the grassland hills too, and still have two food left over for growth. Then there's the spice plantation (when we research Calendar) that will also give a good kick to the commerce production.
And, while it might not come down to this, you never know when that defense bonus from founding on a hill will save you. China is on that side after all...
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