Research strategy discussion #2

[Blkbird]

In our previous research strategy discussion (here), we decided (through a poll here) to take the agricultural path in the initial phase. Now after 20 turns, Animal Husbandry has been researched, Pottery will be finishing in 11 turns. That means we have one week time to discuss what technologies we want to go after next.

I think our current options can be divided into the following categories:

1. Marinal: Fishing, followed by Sailing
2. Cultural: Writing, followed by either Alphabet or Mathamatics
3. Military: Either Hunting, followed by Archery, or Horseback Riding
4. Religious: Mysticism, followed by either Meditation or Polytheism
5. Manufactural: Mining, followed by either Masonry or Bronze Working

Of course, this listing is only to give you a summary overview. We don't have to pick one of those categories exclusively, we can make combinations however we like.

My personal opinion at this time is as follows:

1. Marinal techs aren't needed right now. Even if we build a Settler right after Worker and Warrior, and let him settle in a coastal place, the whole thing will take quite a while.
2. Cutural techs are important if we want to boost our Research by building Libraries, while Open Borders is yet of no high priority. Alphabet is needed to do trade techs, the question is how soon we want to do that. Math could be needed for a variety of things, among others a fast forward to Code of Laws to found Confucianism.
3. Military techs may not be needed immediately, but they'll definitely be needed soon. We don't want to have only Warriors barricaded in our cities when the Barbs start roaming.
4. Religious techs are again hard to analyze as they're the only one whose success don't just depend on ourselves, but the competitors. I'd like to renew my call for risk assessments of different scenarios, especially an answer to the question, "what's our better approach to Confucianism, via Currency or via Prieshood?"
5. Manufactural techs shouldn't be delayed for too long either. Mining is not a must-have because we have plenty of Forests around our Capital, but revealing Bronze and Iron soon would help us pick better settling sites for our next cities.

 

[Tubby Rower]

Since there is at least 1 civ that started with Myst, I'd like to reserve the religious stuff until later.


I'm torn between heading to archery, aplha, and BW. In a recent Pitboss game, axes saved my butt. but this game isn't against humans.

 

[Gloriana]

I think we should go for the library first, so we can speed up our research. Then we should get our military equipped, and with a library we just might get that very first beginning of a military tech advantage.

 

[Sigma]

I'd suggest going for Mining and then Bronze Working, so we can speed up production and get an edge on our competitors.

 

[Blkbird]

I'd suggest going for Mining and then Bronze Working, so we can speed up production and get an edge on our competitors.

People, if you suggest something, please avoid using arguments like "we should do this and that, in order to get ahead of other civs". Considering our Prince level gives us a disadvantage compared to the AI, we can't get ahead of other civs with any *simple* strategy at all. The only advantage we have as humans is the ability to form a superior long-term strategy, to analyse subjects of high complexity, and to notice issues of subtle importance. "Going for Mining and then Bronze Working" clearly doesn't belong to either category.

Please don't take this personal, Sigma. It's certainly nothing wrong to put emphasis on boosting production, just don't make it sound more than it is.

 

[akots]

I do completely agree with Sigma. Let's go for Bronze working. We then can build a worker, connect the bronze resource. This would enable us to build axemen, a very powerful unit which we can use both against barbarians and against AI. We then can also discover Iron Working which allows us to build even more powerful swordsmen unit. We then would be able to defend our nation and also to attack barbarians and our neighbors.

In addition to this, with the help of our worker unit, we would be able to chop forest and direct the output of these forests into building more workers to chop more forests and to build settlers to expand our civilization.

Also it is important to note that with Bronze working we can switch to a powerful slavery civic and this would enable us to sacrifice our citizens to gain additional units or improvements under the unhealthy conditions in case of urgent need.

Bronze working is a very important technology, especially if we can discover it early in the game!

 

[Sigma]

Sorry I didn't elaborate enough. I was on my way out the door (I had to leave for class) so I didn't really get enough time to explain myself. I'll try to provide more reasoning later, but I wanted to throw the idea out there so it could get some support.

 

[DaveShack]

My most spectacular losses so far have been when I drilled too deeply into the Alphabet / Math or the religion path thinking that trade goods would be useful. My best successes have been when balancing between getting ahead on a path and keeping up on the rest.

Archers make good defenders against warriors and other archers, but start to break down against axes and swords. Against opponents with horses you need spears, and against cats you need horses. Combined arms is the best approach, and in order to be sure we can have combinations we need to see the resources.

If animal husbandry reveals horses, then go with the archery / horse path. If not then we need to try the mining path and see if we have either bronze or iron. Our settlers need to be directed toward these strategic resources.

 

[Blkbird]

I do completely agree with Sigma. Let's go for Bronze working. We then can build a worker, connect the bronze resource. This would enable us to build axemen, a very powerful unit which we can use both against barbarians and against AI.

Major flaw in this thinking: We need to actually *have* a Bronze within the borders. If not, there is nothing to "connect".

 

[Tubby Rower]

Oh come on Blkbird... We need to know where the copper is if not for the early game but for the late game (assuming it gets to that point). Some of the latter wonders and projects in the game require copper.

knowing where resources are is vital to securing them. BW has my vote, but I'd like to get to Alpha if we have a source of BW.

Slavery is an awesome civic. First of all it (no maintenance) requires less maintenance than the initial civic (low maintenance). Second of all people can be sacrificed for shields, making the FP a great source for shields. Since overflow shields are carried over, you can sacrifice a couple citizens and maybe get a free axeman out of it after your initial build finishes.

 

[Blkbird]

If animal husbandry reveals horses, then go with the archery / horse path. If not then we need to try the mining path and see if we have either bronze or iron. Our settlers need to be directed toward these strategic resources.

Animal Husbandry *has* already been researched (not paying attention, eh, DS?) and revealed no Horses around our Capital. Scout 2 has revealed a Horse in the last turn at a place that's too far for us to build a city any time soon (see the screenshots). Scout 1 may still be finding a Horse somewhere nearby. We will know when the next Game Session is over. Since our decision doesn't have to be made *before* that (Pottery won't finish within the next Session), we should consider both cases - when we or do not find Horses somewhere close.

 

[Blkbird]

Oh come on Blkbird... We need to know where the copper is if not for the early game but for the late game (assuming it gets to that point). Some of the latter wonders and projects in the game require copper.

knowing where resources are is vital to securing them. BW has my vote, but I'd like to get to Alpha if we have a source of BW.

You don't have to tell me that - you're just repeating what I have written in the initial post - if you would please read it through.

 

[Whomp]

You don't have to tell me that - you're just repeating what I have written in the initial post - if you would please read it through.

Why so much anger? You catch more bees with honey than with vinegar.

Anyhow...BW makes the most sense to me. As DaveShack said balancing the techs and this one is very important at this point. I'd like to get some chops in our future.

 

[Strider]

Attempt to make a leap for Alphabet, then try research/trade off on all the worker improvement technologies. By that time, it'll be time to step back and take another look at our research goals.

Simple logic (and short to!)

 

[Chillaxation]

I'm a bit bearish on a bronze working -rush- because our capital has plenty of hills and we haven't yet seen an enemy's borders. Bronze working is a serious commitment, and I really don't want to go hog wild before we see what lies to the south along the western coast. As a medium term goal, I think bronze working and the Forges of metal casting will synergize well with the Gems in the jungles of the mainland. By the time we could claim the Gems I also feel bronze working will serve us well in picking more specialized city sites, and, with careful planning, in producing axemen.

With respect to the religious path, I really feel like priesthood does us better for picking up a code of laws than currency does. I feel good about an Oracle rush because we have fine stands of forests directly north of Boaring Wallow, and no access - that we know of - to the luxuries that synergize with Markets, even in the great continent to the south and east. I hazard that the other benefits of currency can wait for a while.

In the short term, Mining is the best choice because it allows us to improve our production without necessarily incurring the subsequent commitment of bronze working, in the absence of more expanded knowledge about our location in the world.

 

[Blkbird]

Why so much anger? You catch more bees with honey than with vinegar.

What "anger"? I did say "please" didn't I?

 

[Blkbird]

Attempt to make a leap for Alphabet, then try research/trade off on all the worker improvement technologies. By that time, it'll be time to step back and take another look at our research goals.

Simple logic (and short to!)

Simple, except it might not work. As some people have pointed out, the AI may be very, very unwilling to trade Techs with you, especially on handicapped levels (such as Prince, which we're playing on).

 

[Blkbird]

I'm a bit bearish on a bronze working -rush- because our capital has plenty of hills and we haven't yet seen an enemy's borders. Bronze working is a serious commitment, and I really don't want to go hog wild before we see what lies to the south along the western coast. [...]

With respect to the religious path, I really feel like priesthood does us better for picking up a code of laws than currency does. I feel good about an Oracle rush because we have fine stands of forests directly north of Boaring Wallow, and no access - that we know of - to the luxuries that synergize with Markets, even in the great continent to the south and east. I hazard that the other benefits of currency can wait for a while.

First, there is a contradiction: If you want to chop, you need Bronze Working. Second, you need to elaborate why the other benefits of Currency (plus the other benefits of Math) can wait.

 

[akots]

Major flaw in this thinking: We need to actually *have* a Bronze within the borders. If not, there is nothing to "connect".

Well, this is not Civ3 Conquests...

I also assume that most of the citizens have played a few games in Civ4 or at least read something about the features of the game in other parts of the forum or even here in the Demogame forum.

Bronze and iron are abundant in civ4 and it is a matter of knowing their location, settling there and connecting them. But you have to do it earlier rather than later because otherwise, indeed if postponed too much, as you have flawlessly noted, there might be nothing to connect.

 

[akots]

... AI may be very, very unwilling to trade Techs with you, especially on handicapped levels (such as Prince, which we're playing on).

Ai is actually rather willing to cooperate on the Prince level. Of course, it is relative compared for example to Immortal or Deity level when it is often hard to pull off the trades.

However, the problem with Alphabet is that it is a rather advanced technology and comes somewhat later in the game. We might be severely endangering our security by postponing such essential tech as bronze working. What if evil Khan attacks us? how would we be able to defend ourselves? Or if barbarians appear in large masses?

Archer is a weak unit and relatively expensive if comparing strength versus cost ratio to an axeman.

Another concern about handicap of the Prince level is that Alphabet is actually very easy to research earlier than AI does on that level.