[GS] resource question

[Ziad]

I find it a bit disappointing if only encampments increase resource stockpiles.
Harbours should increase them for coal and oil(Until recently the only reason the UK cared about the Falklands was as a coal/oil station point for the navy).
Aerodomes for oil.
Industrial for most stuff really.

Would make Harbors a tad too strong i think

 

[pgm123]

Would make Harbors a tad too strong i think

What if you limited it to the Shipyard?

 

[AmazonQueen]

What if you limited it to the Shipyard?

That might make more sense

 

[Ziad]

Bring it up to Firaxis somehow

 

[Victoria]

Would make Harbors a tad too strong i think

untrue, Harbours suffer from having no CS support, My commercial hubs with banks get 8 gold per commercial CS and I can have a lot of hubs compared to harbours.
The main harbour advantage is naval warfare is so moronically easy that you can take every harbour on the board with relative ease.
The Shipyard is pretty awesome, the lighthouse is very good for city growth but the seaport is just meh

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

untrue, Harbours suffer from having no CS support, My commercial hubs with banks get 8 gold per commercial CS and I can have a lot of hubs compared to harbours.
The main harbour advantage is naval warfare is so moronically easy that you can take every harbour on the board with relative ease.
The Shipyard is pretty awesome, the lighthouse is very good for city growth but the seaport is just meh

Commercial City-States give gold to Harbor buildings as well as Commercial Hubs in GS.

 

[Victoria]

Commercial City-States give gold to Harbor buildings as well as Commercial Hubs in GS.

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Oh sweet jesus.. @Ziad clearly you are a coastal player.... you feel Mali will not be able to match you in gold?
I think Victoria has just been buffed! Shame it does not count as adjacency.
... And i just found out about Cardiff!... OMG who needs coal?

 

[Josephias]

I can't see resources being consumed for healing working very well.
Would it happen automatically? That would be annoying if your unit is only slightly wounded.
Would it be a decision you take? That might be better. If you've only a limited amount of a resource you might try and save it until units are near death before using it or only use it to heal your highly promoted units.

It might be made such a way only a soft cost is applied automatically (i.e. -1 resource to heal all the units that need it per turn: not really a cost you need to calculate, but a way to deplete your resources if you do not have ensured a source)

Not very fan of aluminium being classified as fuel... it is a big stretch of oversimplifying and making things difficult to underestand at the same time... and yes, obsolete resources may need a solution - either find a new use for them or make that, after some tech, your stockpile of them is always infinite (so AI won’t trade for them when they are no more necessary)

 

[AmazonQueen]

It might be made such a way only a soft cost is applied automatically (i.e. -1 resource to heal all the units that need it per turn: not really a cost you need to calculate, but a way to deplete your resources if you do not have ensured a source)

Not very fan of aluminium being classified as fuel... it is a big stretch of oversimplifying and making things difficult to underestand at the same time... and yes, obsolete resources may need a solution - either find a new use for them or make that, after some tech, your stockpile of them is always infinite (so AI won’t trade for them when they are no more necessary)

That sounds a lot better but it might still be something the player should have to initiate. If you haven't much iron having it depleted because that 1 swordsman you used to attack a barb camp is wounded would be annoying.

 

[Ziad]

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Oh sweet jesus.. @Ziad clearly you are a coastal player.... you feel Mali will not be able to match you in gold?
I think Victoria has just been buffed! Shame it does not count as adjacency.

Harbors are arguably the most versatile districts that provide tons of food, production, gold, and science with Free Inquiry. They also enable sea trade routes which can potentially double yields from trade routes. Any civilization that has incentives to settle on coast and/or with bonuses to Harbor construction will find themselves with self-sufficient cities with high population and gold generation. This is all to compensate for the loss of possible production, although the right pantheons and sea resources can reduce the deficit significantly.

Commercial city state bonuses are halved, but now provide them to both Commercial Districts and Harbors. So now a Harbor/Commercial District combination is more relevant and stronger than ever.

So yeah England definitely got buffed.

Mali's bonuses are all tailored to increasing the potency of their individual trade routes, based on the number of desert tiles. The problem with this is that it innately requires Mali to settle in unfavorable locations that have a lot of desert, so the yields are more compensatory than initially evident. Furthermore, it does somewhat discourage coastal settling as deserts are more frequently located inland.

Phoenicia's coastal bias and very strong navy will provide it near unrivaled control of the seas. This in turn will give Phoenicia both the power to double their trade route bonuses safely, while discouraging other civilizations from engaging in trade without Phoenicia's explicit support. A Mali can quite easily be shut down by a Dido if they try to exploit naval trade. You might be quite inclined to keep Mali down and destroy his trade routes if he tries to send them through the seas.

Phoenicia not only has settling bonuses for more cities (so more gold) and more trade routes, it also has a much easier time settling other continents, and you can acquire luxuries from across the world map, further increasing the breadth of available resources for both city growth and trade. Gold generation through trade deals will almost certainly be higher for the average Phoenicia game than Mali.

Regardless, I think Mali has a higher possible ceiling for gold generation overall, because they can always acquire more cities, have more possible trade route additions through golden ages, can safely build Harbors if not faced with naval aggression, and can always rely on railroads later in the game anyway.

However Phoenicia will be far more consistent as none of its bonuses require anything but coast, which is readily available. It also has a much higher early game potential with no actual maluses. It also has the potential to squeeze in some arguably broken combinations with Colonial Taxes and Casa for even more gold generation.

So in practice, I genuinely think Phoenicia can really compete with Mali. You just have to put a little more effort into it, but none of that effort is truly map dependent outside of severe edge cases (like Pangea with low sea levels), so your performance will generally be more consistent. I'm certain godlike Mali playthroughs will break the bank though.

 

[Josephias]

That sounds a lot better but it might still be something the player should have to initiate. If you haven't much iron having it depleted because that 1 swordsman you used to attack a barb camp is wounded would be annoying.

You might trow in a on/off control to “save” a resource, making the game act as if you had 0 of it (so not consuming and not allowing to build with it, or maybe just not auto-consuming). If you manage it at resource level (and not at unit level) it may prevent it from being too cumbersome.

 

[tedhebert]

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Same here... I love coastal cities and building harbors... 2 thing I felt were UP in the CD vs HD debate was gold from CS and GPP accumulation. Now I guess there's only the second one left... Great Admirals are SO lame compared to Great merchants !

 

[Victoria]

Great Admirals are SO lame compared to Great merchants !

I guess in comparison a little, some GM are rubbish.
On the plus side
If playing Victoria you get 2 GA points for each RNDY, more GP = more era
Each GA provides era score for first kill
First fleet and first amada are not only good era scores but great weapons early... first ironclad, battleship.
Era points are quite hard sometimes to get enough of, not so for England and a medi golden.
They make awesome invincible scout ships.
That mausoleum does make a difference, especially for Nelson but also 2 charges of +2 loyalty and 2 charges of +4
... it’s very different and with England you get a lot

 

[Ziad]

Same here... I love coastal cities and building harbors... 2 thing I felt were UP in the CD vs HD debate was gold from CS and GPP accumulation. Now I guess there's only the second one left... Great Admirals are SO lame compared to Great merchants !

Well Harbors and Commercial Hubs aren't mutually exclusive. They serve different functions overall. I'm not sure why people like to conflate the two. The trade route bonus is just a matter of what you build first. Harbors boost coastal cities significantly in multiple ways, from food to production to gold to naval recruitment. Commercial hubs are strictly for gold.

In the same vein, Great Merchants are great for gold, amenities, and trade routes. Great Admirals are great for combat, exploration, era score, and loyalty. They serve different purposes.

Happily, Free Inquiry boosts both. Commercial city states boost both. They get adjacencies from one another. It's a match made in heaven.

I know I'll be building a Harbor and Commercial Hub in almost every city as Phoenicia. I want all those Great Merchant bonuses, and all those coastal cities.

 

[tedhebert]

Well Harbors and Commercial Hubs aren't mutually exclusive. They serve different functions overall. I'm not sure why people like to conflate the two.

I don't think people conflate the two...it,s just that you need to get your campus district pretty much in every city, some HD if you intend to play religion, some CD because you need a little culture later in game, so there's not much room left for BOTH harbor and Commercial District... choices must be made, and it's usually one or the other...

that being said, Yes with Pheonicia I will feel added pressure to think about it, for sure ;-)

 

[Ziad]

I don't think people conflate the two...it,s just that you need to get your campus district pretty much in every city, some HD if you intend to play religion, some CD because you need a little culture later in game, so there's not much room left for BOTH harbor and Commercial District... choices must be made, and it's usually one or the other...

that being said, Yes with Pheonicia I will feel added pressure to think about it, for sure ;-)

Phoenicia can justify delaying Campuses in satellite cities due to very reliable access to Free Inquiry in the classical age where most of your rapid expansion is happening.

You'll still want a Campus in the first city or two, but the higher population will enable you to build the districts you need anyway. Coastal cities don't lack for growth.

Due to your rapid expansionism, a lot of your culture will come from population and monuments. You don't need to worry about Theater Districts that early on in your satellite cities.

Furthermore, you don't actually need a Cothon in every coastal city. In some cases the Harbor might be disadvantageous to build, especially if your coastal city is mostly surrounded by land. In this case one can justify a Holy Site or Commercial Hub first. It simply depends on your goals. Fortunately, the Cothon doesn't have innate city bonuses so there's no real pressure to build them if you don't need them. Simply don't use that city for settlers or naval construction.

Ideally you'll also settle a few non-coastal cities, when your loyalty has been established. The decision is more clear-cut there.

The same applies to other civilizations, by the way. Minus the loyalty and harbor bonuses.

 

[UWHabs]

That sounds a lot better but it might still be something the player should have to initiate. If you haven't much iron having it depleted because that 1 swordsman you used to attack a barb camp is wounded would be annoying.

I would love to see healing cost 1 per turn, as that would at least force you to have something of a stockpile if you want to have a large war. But I would agree having it controlled would make sense - i'm sure I'd have units that took 2 hp damage that is not worth it to spend the iron to heal, and I'll wait until they're a little tougher. But it wouldn't be too hard - basically if you hit the "heal" button, they'll consume the resource and heal. If you don't want to consume the resource and heal, then simply skip turn.

 

[Ziad]

I assume a script can be made to force healing to expend from a stockpile per turn, if a modder is so inclined.

 

[acluewithout]

Would make Harbors a tad too strong i think

I agree this would be too powerful for Harbours. But I think it’d be a good buff for Aerodromes, which still really, really suck.

Harbors are arguably the most versatile districts that provide tons of food, production, gold, and science with Free Inquiry. They also enable sea trade routes which can potentially double yields from trade routes. Any civilization that has incentives to settle on coast and/or with bonuses to Harbor construction will find themselves with self-sufficient cities with high population and gold generation. This is all to compensate for the loss of possible production, although the right pantheons and sea resources can reduce the deficit significantly.

Commercial city state bonuses are halved, but now provide them to both Commercial Districts and Harbors. So now a Harbor/Commercial District combination is more relevant and stronger than ever.

So yeah England definitely got buffed.

Mali's bonuses are all tailored to increasing the potency of their individual trade routes, based on the number of desert tiles. The problem with this is that it innately requires Mali to settle in unfavorable locations that have a lot of desert, so the yields are more compensatory than initially evident. Furthermore, it does somewhat discourage coastal settling as deserts are more frequently located inland.

Phoenicia's coastal bias and very strong navy will provide it near unrivaled control of the seas. This in turn will give Phoenicia both the power to double their trade route bonuses safely, while discouraging other civilizations from engaging in trade without Phoenicia's explicit support. A Mali can quite easily be shut down by a Dido if they try to exploit naval trade. You might be quite inclined to keep Mali down and destroy his trade routes if he tries to send them through the seas.

Phoenicia not only has settling bonuses for more cities (so more gold) and more trade routes, it also has a much easier time settling other continents, and you can acquire luxuries from across the world map, further increasing the breadth of available resources for both city growth and trade. Gold generation through trade deals will almost certainly be higher for the average Phoenicia game than Mali.

Regardless, I think Mali has a higher possible ceiling for gold generation overall, because they can always acquire more cities, have more possible trade route additions through golden ages, can safely build Harbors if not faced with naval aggression, and can always rely on railroads later in the game anyway.

However Phoenicia will be far more consistent as none of its bonuses require anything but coast, which is readily available. It also has a much higher early game potential with no actual maluses. It also has the potential to squeeze in some arguably broken combinations with Colonial Taxes and Casa for even more gold generation.

So in practice, I genuinely think Phoenicia can really compete with Mali. You just have to put a little more effort into it, but none of that effort is truly map dependent outside of severe edge cases (like Pangea with low sea levels), so your performance will generally be more consistent. I'm certain godlike Mali playthroughs will break the bank though.

I’m so excited about the buffs to Harbours. Yes, exciting if you’re an England player. But really, exciting for almost all Civs because coastal cities and Harbours and Naval should be a big part of Civ.

Seaport and Stock Exchange both really suck.

Sea Port sucks because it’s just not that useful - some flat gold when I’m probably already Swimming in gold.

Stock exchange sucks because it basically reduces something which is so complex and interesting - allocation of capital, international finance, allocation of risks - and just turns it into flat gold. Boring.

An easy fix for both Sea Ports and Stock Echanges would be to give them bonuses based on slotting specific policy cards and or governments and or dedications. So, they’d only be really powerful if you really leaned into them. They are just so boring at the moment.

I mean, I could easily see “Privatisation” or “Private Public Partnership” or “Big Bang” or “One Belt One Road” Economic Cards that leverage Exchanges, Seaports and maybe Powerplants. At a minimum, Stock Exchanges should let you expand how many cities your luxuries effect and or let you earn additional resources.

 

[Ziad]

Seaports are great as an extra burst of gold at the end, but you are right that they could use some more hype.

I like the suggestion of making Seaports be involved in fuel management. It could have both military and economic effects, the former by making navies more efficient and the latter by making fuel trade more profitable.

Perhaps Stock Exchange can have some trade route benefits as well.