Restart

[GeorgeOP]

Why would you press Ctrl-S? Isn't that the Save feature? Only the DP should be saving, and they have time to go the long route. (Esc, click Save in the menu) I guess I don't see the danger because I rarely use those fancy "shortcuts". How many times do people accidentally trigger the WB in their one player games?

 

[ruff_hi]

... we didn't quite complete the discussion on using the style of mod which combines no-cheat and autolog ...

Careful with this. I found that selecting 'no cheat' didn't let any of my custom assets load - see here

 

[greekguy]

could a mod change my vote to yes, restart? i changed my mind because i don't want this incident to happen again. also, i think the no-cheat option should be on, so that affected my decision as well.

Moderator Action: Changed - Rik

 

[Tubby Rower]

Careful with this. I found that selecting 'no cheat' didn't let any of my custom assets load - see here

That's the purpose of "No cheating". There are game mechanics in all of those python files that effect game-play. If we want to use no-cheat, a standard game mod will have to be created and installed in your "Mods" folder. CustomAssets is just for personal preferences (ie: custom graphs, advisors, clocks, autolog, skins). Mods is for a standard set of custom files that cannot be altered. It was written this way presumably for competitions and such. Also the scenarios built into are loaded from the Mods folder not the CustomAssets folder. That's how MinuteMen are in the American revolution scenario but not in the normal epic game.

 

[akots]

About the mods, I just wanted to say a few things.

There are many people in this DemoGame which is very nice. The game has been only recently released but there are already many mods. Some players download not just a single mod but a few mods at once. Sometimes, these mods are harmless, sometimes they enable to look at some things which we are not supposed to know. Sometimes, the mods include modifications of the game rules and are pure cheats. This basically means, that some people who use various "not-so-harmless" mods can have some advantage over the people who don't use these mods and can "predict" how the game would develop due to knowledge of the map or other things which are not supposed to be known to players who use vanilla verision of patch 1.52. I'd hate to say this, but we can easily have a political situation when these people would turn themselves into sort of "prophets" while masking themselves as "just strong players". That would be a very unpleasant situation.

If the save is protected, yes, it cannot be opened with various mods. So, that everyone who opens the save would see the same thing.

All citizens are supposed to be equal. Why then give some citizens advantages over the others so that they can get more information about the game?

Of course, it might sound unjustified and rude, but not all citizens are as noble and open hearted as Donovan Zoi, indeed a seasoned Demogame and ISDG veteran. He honestly put himself in the line of fire and we all applaud to his sense of self-censoring and admire his great dignity. However, not everyone can be that strong and honest, lets face the truth here.

The game can be restarted with "no cheat" turned to on and this would ensure equal rights of all citizens.

 

[ruff_hi]

If we want to use no-cheat, a standard game mod will have to be created and installed in your "Mods" folder.

Thx TB. I was having trouble with the mod discussed in my link (it was in my custom assets at the time) and I did load it into the MOD folder to test that out. At that time, I still couldn't get it to 'take' with no-cheat selected. However, since then, I have had my system re-imaged and some things reinstalled. I will test it out under the MOD folder and get back to you.

 

[ravensfire]

akots,

It doesn't take much to open the save, and play farther into the game to become a "great prophet". We cannot prevent cheating. Heck, we can just barely take it from "no effort" to "minimal effort".

The concept that "no cheat" will prevent cheating is a complete and utter fabrication. The people that want to cheat will continue to do so. We will be as likely to catch them as we would be now.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Also akots, if someone is determined on cheating, they can always overwrite their MAIN game files, and even with No Cheat on, they can used modified rules for the game when they play (ie; set a tech to reveal the world early on and BINGO. Map revealed.) If someone really wants to cheat, No Cheat is not going to stop them.

 

[Chieftess]

I shall abstain from the madness!

 

[akots]

Also akots, if someone is determined on cheating, they can always overwrite their MAIN game files, and even with No Cheat on, they can used modified rules for the game when they play ...

This would not work with password-protected save but indeed it might be too much trouble. What I am worried about here is that a DP (I'm really making a weird assumption) would open the save, accidentally hit world builder icon and then modify the save. That is unlikely possibility but still a possibility.

 

[akots]

... It doesn't take much to open the save, and play farther into the game to become a "great prophet". ...

That would not work simply due to the fact that DP might move different units and order different builds as those who would try to play the save. Since there is a rather short increment of the played turns (10 now and may be less later in the game), that makes this kind of "looking forward" pretty much obsolete and useless. However, there is little point in arguing about it because essentially you are right, it does not prevent possible cheating completely. It just would make it less attractive and useful.

 

[Blkbird]

ravensfire, don't tell us it's "minimal" or even "no effort" to reveal a complete Large size map by just playing normally. We're talking about hours at least.

Ginger_Ale, what you're suggesting is something so sophisticated that at least 99% of us all players won't be able to do it.

I repeat, "Opportunity makes the thief."

I voted for No Cheat originally, hell I even re-started that poll because of the inflammatory language DS used. However, I did vote for continue playing now as I think thowing things out of the window is simply unresponsible - same principle as I voted for Flex originally but later defended the current Tri CoL.

 

[ravensfire]

ravensfire, don't tell us it's "minimal" or even "no effort" to reveal a complete Large size map by just playing normally. We're talking about hours at least.

SO much effort there ...

-- Ravensfire

 

[ravensfire]

That would not work simply due to the fact that DP might move different units and order different builds as those who would try to play the save. Since there is a rather short increment of the played turns (10 now and may be less later in the game), that makes this kind of "looking forward" pretty much obsolete and useless. However, there is little point in arguing about it because essentially you are right, it does not prevent possible cheating completely. It just would make it less attractive and useful.

I repeat, if someone wants to cheat, you cannot stop them in any way. If you want to put on blinders and blithy think you're protected from cheaters, go ahead.

I'll be right here laughing.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Strider]

I repeat, if someone wants to cheat, you cannot stop them in any way. If you want to put on blinders and blithy think you're protected from cheaters, go ahead.

I'll be right here laughing.

So, sense we can't stop people from murdering others... why bother, right?

 

[Strider]

I would like to urge everyone to vote 'no' on restarting the game. NOT because I'm glad DZ's out (quite on the contrary actually) but simply, and I cannot believe not more people have made this point, because in reality you can't go back either. The world would be quite messy if you were born to poor parents somewhere in a shack in the middle of Africa, decide that you don't like your 'starting location' and restart your life until you're born to a rich family of noble blood.
This was one of the reasons we continued playing when fraud came to light and we could have started completely from scratch creating a new CoL, adopt a new form of government etc. But we didn't.
Also: People! We are living a legendary moment here! Can't you see? If we go on now, eventually we can look back and say 'remember the start? it was messy, it was bad, but look what rose from it all! all of us truly form a great nation!' If we simply restart, we can only tell the tale of CIV DG1 that never actually was to be...

So, we should just continue the trip, even with a flat tire? This is not something that will just be gone one day. How many "honest" players must we lose? How would you feel if your government let you die, just because they thought the method used to save you is "unrealistic?" This is not a real-world government, we must serve our citizens (and in a nation this small.. every one of them). We use any method possible to serve our citizens, every method. Trying to make things "real" when were playing a game causes more problems than it solves.

 

[akots]

I repeat, if someone wants to cheat, you cannot stop them in any way. If you want to put on blinders and blithy think you're protected from cheaters, go ahead. ...

Well, there were a few instances of badly implemented open cheating already in this DemoGame which has been barely started. more is to be expected with more people joining and the game progressing to more advanced and interesting stages.

What you are saying is that moderators were wrong when they have found and exterminated this cheating since in your opinion there is no point to fight against these examples of bizzare behavior and it is better just sit and laugh at somebody who wants to fight against it by whatever means are available.

I find this position of your completely unacceptable and am highly disappointed in this point of view taken by an important government official.

Nobody is safe from cheating. The problem is do the citizens want to take certain measures which can be reasonably taken to minimize the risks? IMHO, yes. And I would mean any point of view which says "no" in this issue as unfair to most of the citizens thus endangering the fairness and spirit of the game itself and of the DemoGame as well.

 

[ravensfire]

akots,

Have I *EVER* said that I condone cheating? No, I haven't, and yet that's exactly what you insinuate. That's rather poor.

My viewpoint is simple - restarting the game with no cheat enabled will not reduce the chance of someone that wants to cheat. There are numerous examples, in this thread, of how a person can, without significant effort, cheat.

We should treat this exactly as we have in the past. Sanction the player if knowledge has been released, request they not participate in game discussions until their knowledge has been revealed in the game, and we keep going.

Not once, NOT ONCE, have I ever suggested cheating is acceptable. I have said, and will continue to say, that No Cheat will not prevent cheating.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Blkbird]

I have a technical question about this poll.

The poll question asks, "Restart or not? (Yes / No / Abstain)", but the initial post asks "Now do we restart the game and turn the cheat option on or or just we carry on with the game we have going?"

Those two question do not match. Does "Yes" now refer to restarting the game only or restarting *and* setting the No Cheat option both? How is someone supposed to vote if he wants the game to restart (because of DZ and the office he holds, let's say) but once again with No Cheat option off?

Doesn't the wording of this poll violate CoL 3.A.II.A "The description and initial post for all official polls should be stated in a clear and neutral manner" and CoL 3.A.II.B "[...] and how the results will be interpreted should also be in the initial post"?

@Censor: Did you check this when you confirmed the poll as official?

@Justices: Please prepare yourselves, probability of incoming JR request is high.

 

[Blkbird]

Not once, NOT ONCE, have I ever suggested cheating is acceptable. I have said, and will continue to say, that No Cheat will not prevent cheating.

Not once has anybody suggested the issue at hand would be preventing cheating in the first place. It's about *reducing* cheating and preventing cheat-like *accidents*.

That said, I'm still against restarting, just for a different reason than you.