Restart

Restart or not?


  • Total voters
    50
  • Poll closed .
@Ravensfire:

I have not insinuated anything. If you read the posts of mine, I do imply what I have implied and nothing else in these posts. Just repeating again that if somebody wants to implement certain measure to make cheating more difficult or less attractive for the citizens, why would you oppose these measures? That is all what I wanted to say and there cannot be any misinterpretation of this imho. You, on the other hand, might find these measures useless. Now I'm going to ask another question which is the reason why you find it useless. That you would have answered by thinking that these measures are only partial solution of the problem. Well, I then repeat again that even partial solution is better than no solution at all trying to ingnore the problem. Strider above also have noted the similarly important aspect.

Of course, one can say that this is the first DemoGame of Civ4 and we have to acquire certain experience for this first game before clarifying possible solutions to the problem and actual severity of the problem. That is a valid argument. I and probably all other citizens have little or no idea on how this would turn out further in the game. Now, what if Donovan Zoi would not have been an honest person and would have hidden the fact and would have provided some "specific insight" into the game? How this would sound later on when everyone finds out? That is my main concern.

Now, we have an incident here. We can make a choice either to disregard this incident and consider that nothing happened or we can adapt to this experience and make sure that it is not repeated. Let me put it this way by using an ancient Roman saying authored by Ciceron (Marcus Tullius):
"Cujusvis hominis est errare; nullius, nisi insipientis in errore perseverare".
 
Wow, once again we have a question which divides the people right down the middle.

I'm going to ask another question in another poll -- that question is not going to affect the validity of this poll, but it might affect how we decide to proceed. :crazyeye:
 
In the event of a tie poll, no change will be made correct? Then it is anyone who wishes to repolls duty to do so, Also correct?

But I have to wonder if we should make it require a 2/3 vote since it is something so powerful and game changeing. Also impeachments require 2/3 vote and this is sorta like impeaching the current game.
 
I am the Future said:
In the event of a tie poll, no change will be made correct? Then it is anyone who wishes to repolls duty to do so, Also correct?

But I have to wonder if we should make it require a 2/3 vote since it is something so powerful and game changeing. Also impeachments require 2/3 vote and this is sorta like impeaching the current game.

This is kinda hard to answer -- your friendly judiciary is likely to have more work this month. :eek:
 
I am the Future said:
In the event of a tie poll, no change will be made correct? Then it is anyone who wishes to repolls duty to do so, Also correct?

But I have to wonder if we should make it require a 2/3 vote since it is something so powerful and game changeing. Also impeachments require 2/3 vote and this is sorta like impeaching the current game.
I think it should be a simple majority, however, either way I don't think this poll can be considered valid beacuse:
1. As blkbird pointed out, it includes the additional clause about enabling no cheat
2. It doesn't state the percent required for approval/that percent hasn't been decided upon
 
Unless I've missed something, it seems to me that this poll is pretty clear, all as outlined in the first post.

Without the no-cheat clause, this poll basically becomes a decision on whether or not to allow DZ participation in the game. The poll and its decision could then be considered unfair, as it'd basically be an exception being made for a prominent citizen. What if some poor new citizen made the same mistake fifty turns into the game? Would we reset again? Besides, given that this issue is contentious as it is, another poll may be the best way to redecide the no-cheat issue.

The required approval is basically implied - the majority wins. This type of decision obviously doesn't appear anywhere in our laws so far as I'm aware, and because no special condition about interpretation or needed requirements was stated when this poll began.
 
That would not work simply due to the fact that DP might move different units and order different builds as those who would try to play the save. Since there is a rather short increment of the played turns (10 now and may be less later in the game), that makes this kind of "looking forward" pretty much obsolete and useless. However, there is little point in arguing about it because essentially you are right, it does not prevent possible cheating completely. It just would make it less attractive and useful.

DZ saw the entire world. All someone has to do is load the save, forfeit, and they can see the same thing. Having "No Cheat" on will not stop someone from intentionally revealing the same info DZ currently has. It will just stop people from getting the info by accidentally hitting Ctl-W.

I don't think a password would work, either. Since every officer and deputy is allowed to look at the save to obtain info, you would be passing the password to a lot of people. Add in the fact that every month the officers and deputies could change, it would only leave a small group of people without access to the save.

The only way to trully prevent this in the future is to elect a permenant player to keep the game on their computer, and only they can play it. But then what happens when they make the same mistake?

this poll basically becomes a decision on whether or not to allow DZ participation in the game. The poll and its decision could then be considered unfair, as it'd basically be an exception being made for a prominent citizen. What if some poor new citizen made the same mistake fifty turns into the game? Would we reset again?

What happens if I were to accidentally do something in the save in turn 75? Let's say I'm looking at the save and I accidentally hit a key on my keyboard and reveal something. Will everyone want to restart the entire game just so I can keep playing. I'm not trying to offend DZ, I'm just throwing that out there as a what if. Is DZ a more important citizen in our Democracy than anyone else?
 
We all agree that someone with bad intent can cheat, no matter what option we choose. So that point is not important.
The "No cheat" option switched on is thus about preventing more accidents, as DZ has shown, can happen. The price to pay for this is to loose the autolog. That price is a low price to pay, IMHO. Especially if you consider that this creates a small threshold for citizens to make "accidental cheating" 1 tiny bit less attractive.

I too am interested at Ravensfire's answer to Akots' question. For me it's a no brainer. Having "No cheat" option off is the same as saying: "we welcome accidents and incidents". I don't welcome them so "No cheat" should be ON.
Edit: thanks Darkness ...
 
Rik Meleet said:
I too am interested at Ravensfire's answer to Akots' question. For me it's a no brainer. Having "No cheat" option off is the same as saying: "we welcome accidents and incidents". I don't welcome them so "No cheat" should be off.

:confused:

You mean it should be on, right? ;)
 
I would like to humbly thank everyone for the support shown to me in this thread. However, I still find it imperative that we soldier on with the current game at hand. If we do not, then we will lose a vital opportunity to prove ourselves as a democracy.

Like it or not, we as a people decided early in the game to waive the No Cheat option to use the AutoLog function, and we have already atarted a game under those constructs. In our history, I don't believe we have ever tossed out the results of a vested game due to the unfortunate actions of one person. And I certainly do not want that person to be me.

This will be the second poll in less than a month where my vote in a controversial decision poll goes against my initial choice. And I truly believe that maintaining a game in progress is at least equal to recognizing a ratified law of the land. My mindset in both cases is that time must march on; it cannot be erased.

I will be asking the mods to reinstate my group priviledges for this vote. We can decide later on my personal fate, but let's not allow my actions to derail the game in progress.
 
Moderator Action: After further review, I'm hereby changing my vote from Abstain, to Yes.

BTW, shouldn't noms be going up? Even if we start over, it'll be Feb. 1st when we can start. (heh, my birthday...)
 
[threadjack]
Who does the nomination threads? the Censor or deputy?
[/treadjack]
 
Rik Meleet said:
The price to pay for this is to loose the autolog.

Actually we have a way to have both no-cheat and autolog, so even that issue has dropped in importance. An installed mod (based on HOF mod thanks to Dianthus et al) can be installed by anyone who wants to load the save, and we can indeed have both options. The only person we know of who might not be able to load saves using it (Furiey) has another technical problem which would give her spoiler info if her screen was scrolled, either intentionally or accidentally.

For many people the question is still one of do-overs. We already faced a do-over question and decided in favor of continuing on in that case. Is it dangerous -- you bet it is. But as many people have asked me in other discussions, aren't a lot of us here because we want that adversity?

I can also offer a voluntary solution to the CTRL-W problem. It should be possible to either change that key combo or make a confirmation popup window appear. It's voluntary because people would have to install it into customAssets to get protection. This isn't a very good solution (better to get it into a patch) but if "play on" wins we should think about doing it.
 
IMO, unintentional cheating as it occured is clearly something that's bad for the individual but doesn't have any implications as long as that citizen doesn't use the data gathered.

Any citizens that "cheats" by human error has to live with that fact and the consequences thereof. For example, in an occasion in which anyone sees the map very early throughout the game this citizen should stay away from map related tasks of the game and even voting as long as that data is so much devalued (our civ has acquired information on all opponents' locations and most of the map) that s/he can join again as a full citizen. Believe me when I say that person that cheats unintentionally has - at that later point of play - no different knowledge than all the other.

Nonetheless, s/he could act in the judiciary that deal with meta game (gameplay) and not game issues.

Later on, your, sorry my, brain could not use any data from a dead screen. The only crucial information from a crowded map is the position of staged war units during a war. If we are in a war with that civ, I had to stay away till that info is devalued, too, e.g. we captured that city, that particular battle is over, etc.

Regardless of what I said about this unintentional "cheating", people have known and certainly know now that handling the save is "dangerous". A discussion/poll by our people has already shown the problems of the no-cheat option, so I for my part think we have to live with that choice.

I'm sorry for anyone that cheats unintentionally and therefore misses (partially) out on this first [civ4] demo game.

I voted NO.
 
18 hours to go, 20 - 20 - 4

Interesting.

-- Ravensfire
 
Bengeance has asked to have his 'no' vote switched to a 'yes' vote. (via email) I've told him to post in here to confirm it.

Bengeance said:
CT,

Could you please change my vote from No to Yes for the restart. I have given this more consideration and a restart would probably be the best thing.

Bengeance
 
Chieftess said:
Bengeance has asked to have his 'no' vote switched to a 'yes' vote. (via email) I've told him to post in here to confirm it.

Philisophical question: Why do the vote-switchers always seem to gravitate to the easy way out? :hmm: :lol:

CT, do you think you can reactivate my membership so I have a chance to vote on this matter? I am sure you have seen my request by now.
 
Restart is a waste of time. Vote "no" and let's get on with the game.
 
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