Return of the SANDANISTA!

[brachy-pride]

They guy has changed, he is no longer a commie, his party supported the catholic church when they outlawed all abortions a week ago (something I guess USA commies would completely hate)

Just let them be in peace, if the president fails, then the opposition will return to power, this is just anecdotic, for example the current president of Peru was also president in the 80´s and his gov was a mess, the same happens now.

 

[Che Guava]

it's a close one...!

MANAGUA, Nicaragua (Reuters) - Former Marxist rebel Daniel Ortega, a U.S. Cold War foe, was ahead in Nicaragua's presidential election but his lead over a conservative rival narrowed slightly, partial results showed on Monday.

With returns in from 14.7 percent of polling stations after Sunday's election, Ortega had 40.04 percent of votes, just enough to seal outright victory if that level of support held.

But his lead over conservative Eduardo Montealegre slipped from more than 8 points earlier to under 7 points. Ortega needs either 40 percent of the vote or at least 35 percent and a five point lead over Montealegre to take victory and avoid a runoff election next month.

link

 

[Elta]

Every time I saw this thread pop up it made me think of melons .....I couldn't figure out why. Then it hit me! - Sandia is watermelon in Spanish.



......My post have been getting less and less informative *shrug* - now that I have a job it's tappin me brain.

 

[zulu9812]

is right, but not for the reasons you might think.

Nicaragua, compared to it's neighbors and overseas, was doing pretty well until Ortega took over. Nicaragua's GNP fell by over 30% in the first year under the FSLN (Sandinistas) and declined steadily until the mid-1990s, when after Ortega had been removed from power and the new government was able to finally pursue decent economic policies.

If Nicaragua and President Somoza had been frozen in time from before Ortega and was unfrozen today, Nicaragua would be some 200%+ better off economically.

Now imagine what could have been if Nicaragua had also been allowed those additional 20+ years of progres.

Let it be known, now and forever, that rmsharpe espouses the benefits of a dictatorship!

If only the USA was a dictatorship, eh?

 

[luiz]

Becauare comparing governments that could focus on economic and social and whatever stuff with a government that had to cope with a US-backed insurgency is in any way, form, or shape a fair comparison.

(Not that I expect the socialists to do much good for Nicaragua ; I just like me some intelectual honesty)

Huh?

Not that long ago there were american troops deposing a panamenian government. And they managed to overcome all that turbulence and are doing fine now.

Having a pragmatic government can do wonders for a country. Wonders that will never happen when the people elect a loon like Ortega.

The Panamenians learned the lesson, apparently nicaraguans have to suffer a little more before grasping reality.

 

[Che Guava]

is right, but not for the reasons you might think.

Nicaragua, compared to it's neighbors and overseas, was doing pretty well until Ortega took over. Nicaragua's GNP fell by over 30% in the first year under the FSLN (Sandinistas) and declined steadily until the mid-1990s, when after Ortega had been removed from power and the new government was able to finally pursue decent economic policies.

True, but of course the Sandinistas took over a country that was still reeling from a major earthquake (in which most funds for reconstruction were embezzled), had an environnmental wasteland for a backyard, had to content with US-funded contras making life in the coutryside impossible, mining of thier ports by the US directly, and near total economic isolation by its neighbours who were too afraid of being branded 'communists' themselves. Not exactly a fair comparisan.

On the other hand, the FLSN were able to bring illiteracy down to 12% from 50%, were able to introduce the radical concept of healthcare to the poor, virtually wiping out polio and measels, and bring women into mainstream society.

Maybe nicaraguans just miss having someone who looks after the people instead of the economy.

 

[luiz]

Another interesting thing about Ortega is that, just like 99% of the communist revolutionaries, he loves money.

In the final years of his governments, the multi-millionarie states that the Sandinistas had seized (some worth more than one billion USD) became private again and were distributed to high ranking Sandinistas, including Ortega. Those acts are known as "Piñata Acts". His corruption rivals that of Somoza, ironically.

As for reducing illiteracy, many other countries in the continent managed to do the same, or even more, without ruining the economy, killing alot of people and distributing large estates to communist thugs.

 

[Che Guava]

Another interesting thing about Ortega is that, just like 99% of the communist revolutionaries, he loves money.

In the final years of his governments, the multi-millionarie states that the Sandinistas had seized (some worth more than one billion USD) became private again and were distributed to high ranking Sandinistas, including Ortega. Those acts are known as "Piñata Acts". His corruption rivals that of Somoza, ironically.

I can't defend everything he's done, except to say that his corruption pales to that of his pre and post-decessors...

As for reducing illiteracy, many other countries in the continent managed to do the same, or even more, without ruining the economy, killing alot of people and distributing large estates to communist thugs.

How did the literacy programs ruin the economy? I always thought that it was the constant warfare, economic isolation and US agression on thier waterways..but that's just me...

As for the killings, once again, I can't justify everything, but I have a feeling that a lot of critics of Ortega here would be a lot more sympathetic if the insurgency had been a communist one instead of the other way around...

 

[luiz]

I can't defend everything he's done, except to say that his corruption pales to that of his pre and post-decessors...

Which post-decessor was as corrupt as the Sandinistas?
And I think that Ortega easily rivals Somoza in terms of corruption.

How did the literacy programs ruin the economy? I always thought that it was the constant warfare, economic isolation and US agression on thier waterways..but that's just me...

As for the killings, once again, I can't justify everything, but I have a feeling that a lot of critics of Ortega here would be a lot more sympathetic if the insurgency had been a communist one instead of the other way around...

I never said that the literacy programs ruined the economy. I said that he in fact reduced illiteracy, but also ruined the economy. On the other hand, other countries in the region managed to reduce illiteracy even more and have a healthy economy.

 

[Che Guava]

Arnoldo Alemán

I never said that the literacy programs ruined the economy. I said that he in fact reduced illiteracy, but also ruined the economy. On the other hand, other countries in the region managed to reduce illiteracy even more and have a healthy economy.

and I said that nicaragua had a lot more to deal with than most other countries in the region, as I stated in the section you quoted...

 

[amadeus]

Maybe nicaraguans just miss having someone who looks after the people instead of the economy.

There you have it; you'd prefer be piss poor under a communist dictatorship. Thanks a bunch.

 

[Che Guava]

There you have it; you'd prefer be piss poor under a communist dictatorship. Thanks a bunch.

No, I'd prefer to live in a country that has a social safety net, where the government takes an active interest in providing for and educating its people, rather than one that can boast a higher GDP.

But that's just me.

 

[luiz]

Arnoldo Alemán

Ah, the same Alemán who cut a deal with Ortega so that he would not be charged for corruption? I wonder what he gave Ortega in return. Oh wait, it was MONEY, dirty money.

and I said that nicaragua had a lot more to deal with than most other countries in the region, as I stated in the section you quoted...

And I repeat that Panama not that long ago had american troops in it's soil deposing their government. That's more than the Contras ever did.

Countries can recover from turbulence if their leaders are not raging lunatics with a cleptomania problem. Too bad for Nicarágua, because Ortega happens to be a raging lunatic with severe cleptomania.

Edit: And anyone with a brain should be sick and tired of the communist excuses for their pathetic governments.

The USSR was poor because of WW2.
Cuba is poor because of the american embargo
Allende made Chile chaotic because of the evil capitalist truck drivers and farmers
Nicaragua is poor because of the Contras
North Korea is poor because of natural hazzards (see Pasi's thread)

I sense a pattern here. Now the truth:

All communist nations are poor because communism sucks.

 

[Che Guava]

Ah, the same Alemán who cut a deal with Ortega so that he would not be charged for corruption? I wonder what he gave Ortega in return. Oh wait, it was MONEY, dirty money.

No, I was referring to the Aleman who is serving 20 to life under house arrest for embezling more than 100 million from nicaragua, the same one that has been ranked as the 9th most corrupt modern leader in the world.

And I repeat that Panama not that long ago had american troops in it's soil deposing their government. That's more than the Contras ever did.

For how long? IIRC, the operation took only a few days, and the US soldiers that remained after Noreiga gave up stayed to keep the peace and make sure that a new leadership could take over. That's hardly comperable to a decade long insurgency of the contras backed with US bullying instead of aid.

Countries can recover from turbulence if their leaders are not raging lunatics with a cleptomania problem. Too bad for Nicarágua, because Ortega happens to be a raging lunatic with severe cleptomania.

Too bad that thier last leader was one too...and the one before that...

Really, taking a look over the past 50 years of teh history of nicaragua, Ortega and the sand's are the only ones that have done anything good for most of the population of the country. Is it any wonder why he's gaining popularity?

 

[luiz]

No, I was referring to the Aleman who is serving 20 to life under house arrest for embezling more than 100 million from nicaragua, the same one that has been ranked as the 9th most corrupt modern leader in the world.

He happens to be the same one who gave money to Ortega to avoid jail back in the day.

For how long? IIRC, the operation took only a few days, and the US soldiers that remained after Noreiga gave up stayed to keep the peace and make sure that a new leadership could take over. That's hardly comperable to a decade long insurgency of the contras backed with US bullying instead of aid.

Well it's not like the US actions against Noriega begun during the invasion.

Also, read my edit in the other post about lame communist excuses for failure.

Too bad that thier last leader was one too...and the one before that...

Really, taking a look over the past 50 years of teh history of nicaragua, Ortega and the sand's are the only ones that have done anything good for most of the population of the country. Is it any wonder why he's gaining popularity?

He is only gaining populatity because the newer generation barely remembers his years. He lost 3 elections in 90's when the memories of his reign of terror were fresh. This is an indication that the people did not like his actions that much.

But Latin Americans have short memories and easily fall for soft-spoken tyrants.

 

[Che Guava]

Well it's not like the US actions against Noriega begun during the invasion.

Also, read my edit in the other post about lame communist excuses for failure.

Are you really suggesting that an all out civil war had NOTHING to do with the state of the economy? Gee, Haiti didn't have a communist regime established and they seem to be doing pretty good, don't they?

As for your edit, I don't deny that communists have a long history of mismanaging economies, but to suggest that that was the only thing involved is just naive. I can't speak for the USSR, NK or Chile (mostly because in the latter case I'm just not as famliar with it) but I can say for certain that Cuba would be in MUCH better shape if not for the embargo. Maybe not great, but at least there would be money coming in and proper medicines. If that would happen, then there might actually be more of a middle class in Cuba that could actually challenge Castro. It's in his interest to keep everyone poor right now.

As for nicaragua, it's hard to get any kind of economy going if your countryside is in disarray because of a civil war, your ports are mined to hell and you only have Cuba to trade with because no-one else wants to associate with you. Maybe the Sadn's would have mismanaged things, but we'll never really know.

He is only gaining populatity because the newer generation barely remembers his years. He lost 3 elections in 90's when the memories of his reign of terror were fresh. This is an indication that the people did not like his actions that much.

But Latin Americans have short memories and easily fall for soft-spoken tyrants.

There's plenty of other candidates to vote for that have no baggage whatsoever. SOmehow thier platforms just don't seem to speak to nicaraguans...

 

[Che Guava]

looks like he did it!

Ortega wins Nicaragua election

From correspondents in Managua, Nicaragua

November 07, 2006 12:19am
Article from: Agence France-Presse

FORMER revolutionary leader Daniel Ortega won Nicaragua's presidential election with more than 38 per cent of the vote, an electoral observers' group said, citing a quick count it conducted.

Mr Ortega had a lead of almost nine points over his closest rival, conservative Eduardo Montealegre, according to the Ethics and Transparency group, which deployed 11,000 electoral monitors during yesterday's voting.

Mr Ortega got 38.49 per cent and Mr Montealegre had 29.52 per cent, followed by Jose Rizo, also a conservative, with 24.15 per cent in the quick count.

If the results hold, Mr Ortega will be elected president, having topped the 35 per cent needed to win outright without going to a second round of voting.

“These results are final,” said Roberto Courtney, who heads Ethics and Transparency, stressing Mr Ortega's lead was irreversible.

He said the count had a margin of error of 1.7 points.

link

For better or for worse, the Sandinistas are back!

EDIT: An interesting side-note, in case people were wondering if Ortega's attempts at reconcilliation are genuine: his vp running mate is Jaime Morales, once the spokesperson for the Contras.

 

[luiz]

Are you really suggesting that an all out civil war had NOTHING to do with the state of the economy? Gee, Haiti didn't have a communist regime established and they seem to be doing pretty good, don't they?

There was hardly an all out Civil War. It was a guerilla movement maybe comparable to the FARCs in Colombia. And Colombia under Uribe seems to be doing far better than Nicaragua under Ortega, an indication that development is possible even when facing enemies if your leader is not a corrupt idiot.

As for your edit, I don't deny that communists have a long history of mismanaging economies, but to suggest that that was the only thing involved is just naive. I can't speak for the USSR, NK or Chile (mostly because in the latter case I'm just not as famliar with it) but I can say for certain that Cuba would be in MUCH better shape if not for the embargo. Maybe not great, but at least there would be money coming in and proper medicines. If that would happen, then there might actually be more of a middle class in Cuba that could actually challenge Castro. It's in his interest to keep everyone poor right now.

BS. The embargo does not exclude Cuba from the world. They can and do trade with the whole planet with the exception of the Evil Empire itself. Furthermore I can't see why it would be good for Cuba to trade with them, after all according to Castro the US exploits and rapes all third-countries it has relations with. Therefore, under communist logic the embargo is good.

It is however a convenient excuse for useful idiots in the West to explain why Cuba is such a bankrupt hellhole.

There's plenty of other candidates to vote for that have no baggage whatsoever. SOmehow thier platforms just don't seem to speak to nicaraguans...

It goes further.

The nicaraguan system is completely anti-democratic for a multi-party system. A candidate can win in the first round if he has more than 35% of the votes and 5% more than the second place. This means that if 36% of the people vote for someone and the other 64% hates his guts but are divided between many candidates, the guy wins.

This is somewhat like what's happening in Nicaragua. Ortegal will win with 36%, but ALL second-round polls show that he would lose, and badly. The majority of nicaraguans do not want him, but they're stuck with him due to a failed system.

 

[Che Guava]

There was hardly an all out Civil War. It was a guerilla movement maybe comparable to the FARCs in Colombia. And Colombia under Uribe seems to be doing far better than Nicaragua under Ortega.

The difference being that in Colombia there is a significant distance between FACR strongholds and major cities, not to mention that the FARC don't receive aid from major donors like the US. Not so in Nicaragua. Besides, don't you think that the FARC insurgency has made problems for the Colombian economy?

BS. The embargo does not exclude Cuba from the world. They can and do trade with the whole planet with the exception of the Evil Empire itself. Furthermore I can't see why it would be good for Cuba to trade with them, after all according to Castro the US exploits and rapes all third-countries it has relations with. Therefore, under communist logic the embargo is good.

It is however a convenient excuse for useful idiots in the West to explain why Cuba is such a bankrupt hellhole.

Helms-Burton law made for economic sanctions against anyone who was doing trade between both the US and Cuba; here in canada several companies had to end thier business relations with Cuba over this bill. It's simple economics; it's a lot more expensive to get goods from Europe than the US, especially when those european ships are not allowed to dock n the US on the way there or back because of these laws.

As for Castro's rants, that makes no difference. If Cuba could trade with the US more others more fairly things would be better for them.

It goes further.

The nicaraguan system is completely anti-democratic for a multi-party system. A candidate can win in the first round if he has more than 35% of the votes and 5% more than the second place. This means that if 36% of the people vote for someone and the other 64% hates his guts but are divided between many candidates, the guy wins.

This is somewhat like what's happening in Nicaragua. Ortegal will win with 36%, but ALL second-round polls show that he would lose, and badly. The majority of nicaraguans do not want him, but they're stuck with him due to a failed system.

It's called the first past the post system, and while its not my favourite, its certainly not anti-democratic. It's what we have here in Canada and we do just fine with it.

 

[luiz]

The difference being that in Colombia there is a significant distance between FACR strongholds and major cities, not to mention that the FARC don't receive aid from major donors like the US. Not so in Nicaragua. Besides, don't you think that the FARC insurgency has made problems for the Colombian economy?

In Colombia for decades the FARCs threatned urban centers, in fact at one point they controlled 40% of the country. And they were funded by a very major donor named Soviet Union.

As for the economy, of course they were harmful, but Colombia is not worse than it's neighbours and today is actually doing better than most.

Helms-Burton law made for economic sanctions against anyone who was doing trade between both the US and Cuba; here in canada several companies had to end thier business relations with Cuba over this bill. It's simple economics; it's a lot more expensive to get goods from Europe than the US, especially when those european ships are not allowed to dock n the US on the way there or back because of these laws.

As for Castro's rants, that makes no difference. If Cuba could trade with the US more others more fairly things would be better for them.

You can't accuse the US of raping everyone and than complaint that they don't trade with you. This is simple international politics.

If you want to trade with the US don't seize their property, don't fund rival regimes in their backyard, don't point nuclear warheads at them.

It's called the first past the post system, and while its not my favourite, its certainly not anti-democratic. It's what we have here in Canada and we do just fine with it.

It's a joke in a multi-party country.

Imagine my scenario where someone with a 64% rejection is elected. This is a mockery of democracy.