Returning to port after exploration

[Teabeard]

As it is now the player has a huge advantage with naval exploration because of the suicide curragh/galley exploit which the AI does not do. We can eliminate this exploit and make things a bit more realistic by requiring ships to return to port before their findings are known. If the ship is lost at sea or destroyed before it arrives at port then all that it has known should be lost.

While we are at it, why not require the same for land exploration? If your explore dies before reporting his findings then all that he discovered should revert to blackness. Communications with other nations and any sort or diplomacy should not be available until your unit reports his discovery.

 

[Flintlock]

I'd like to see something like this adopted for naval units, land units can always send something like a single soldier back to report what they found.
The problem with something like this is that the player already knows what land is there, so, even if it's black, you can already plan where to settle cities, etc. The only way to prevent this would be to have galleys go out auto-exploring, and come back every so often, revealing what they found. But, then, that's taking control away from the player and giving to the computer, which does a worse job. The whole fun of Civ is is that you're in control.

 

[sir_schwick]

Here is how you have to do exploration. Only 'explorer' type units can go into un-mapped or unknown territory. Before map-making all territory is unmapped except for territory inside or bordering cultural boundaries. After that the explorer unit must return before other units can go in that territory. Selling maps would be really important, but you have to explorer these territories still before they can be used by common untis(maps look different based on prespective).

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Good idea, Sir_Schwick, but I would like to offer the following kink-if I may?

Instead of having only scouts and explorers be able to head into unknown territory, simply make it that only these units have sufficient 'Operational Range' to go deep into wholly unknown territory before they run the risk of perishing. Same with particular forms of exploratory naval vessels.
By the same token, though, I would also like it if you only got the full idea of what your scouts/explorers have seen AFTER they return. Sure you might get an idea of whats there as the unit passes through, but until its all there for you on the map, you can't really refer to it for strategic purposes-if that makes sense?

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[dh_epic]

Aussie and Sir Schwick, once again a great idea between the two of you. Not sure who to give credit, but I'd just like to give this idea (and the people behind it) my vote of confidence

 

[Bluetooth]

I think this is good ideas. I’m not a big friend of Europa Universalis but the concept in that game for Explorers, Conquistadors and Colonies was really exciting and it made the exploration a little bit more of a drama. If we look at this historically it was a drama and the result was not as predictable as it is in Civilization.

 

[sir_schwick]

the big advantage of requiring maps would be to slow down expansion in the ancient era. it would also lead value to advanced explorer units like those at the end of the middle ages.

 

[rhialto]

But how would you kee the knowledge of that map secret from the player? Sure, the people might not know what's there, but the player has to have seen it in order to move it there in the first place.

I can't see any solution that isn't unfunesquely complicated.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Nope, Rhialto, it can be done with a very SIMPLE three-pronged solution.

1) All 'exploration' units will have a greater visual range than standard military/settler units. This means that they expose a greater proportion of a fogged region when the pass through it.

2) Exploration units will have a greater Operational range than normal units. This might also be coupled with a 'units have half OR when entering 'fogged-out' areas, a penalty that might not apply to Exploration units.

3) When ANY unit passes from one square to the next, all previously exposed hexes will become 're-fogged' (unless still in 'visual range'). All exposed areas are, however, stored by the computer so that, when the unit returns to a friendly city, all previously exposed parts of the map will appear on your main game map. The only thing I am not sure of is whether this ability should ONLY belong to exploration units.
Though it might be possible for a player to 'remember' all of the areas previously exposed, I doubt that they will be able to hold ALL of the newly exposed areas in their heads. If they can, then more power to them, I guess.
For everyone else, though, it retains the mystery of the map for much longer-and makes defense of your exploration units MUCH more important !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[sir_schwick]

My solution is that player knowledge will not matter. You cannot move settlers and military equipment through areas you do not have maps of. Before maps you better be in direct site or with an explorer when you attack enemy civs.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

That idea sort of ties into the second point of my last post-though not so absolute. The idea is that if an area is under 'fog', so to speak, then non-exploratory units will have HALF their normal operational range. This means that either your military units have to find an enemy city very quick, or else they are going to be potentially dying off like flies-especially if the terrain is very harsh (which reduces operational range further still!) Of course, once an explorer unit returns to a city, then all areas he has explored are no longer 'foggy', meaning they work as normal for OR purposes. Of course, this system means that perfect AI knowledge is of no benefit for the purposes of sending units into 'virgin' territories!
Lastly, though, leaving things a little bit flexible would also still allow certain bold tactical moves which have actually happened in history, like where the General commanding the Mongol Horde led almost his ENTIRE force into the 'trackless' desert, in order to come upon the city of Samarkand from behind (whilst leaving just a sufficient enough army to attack the city from the front !!)

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[sir_schwick]

so are you suggesting troops in unknown territory incur movement, combat, and health? that would create and interesting choice. What about htis for military campaigns:
if an explorer returns to a unit, that unit gets a copy fo the explorers map(if map making has been researched) or at least can guide them at full strenght through squares they explored. This would make chasing down and killing scouts really important. it would also make scouts in ancient warfare very valuable.

 

[Davidizer13]

Here's some of my ideas:
Wooden hulled ships get damaged slowly with age.
Units on any ship get slowly damaged as they stay on a boat.
And with those ideas, I have POST #100! It just goes to show you that with a few good ideas and staying up for Election Night puts you over the century mark.

 

[Pook]

I like the ideas in this thread. I listed another approach in my exploration thread here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=89343

I too was troubled by the idea that I knew exactly where my fleet of galleys was lost, when in real life I would only know that they hadn't returned. It bothered me that my Bronze Age warriors were on their cell-phones telling me the precise location of terrain hundreds of miles from my cities. I was also troubled by how long it takes to explore- if Phoenician explorers could sail around Africa in 700 BC in the equivalent of one turn, why couldn't I send out a similar expedition, accepting the risk that it might not come back at all?

My basic idea was to build an expedition as a unit, and send it into unknown territory with some basic parameters. There would be a significant chance of loss- if that happened, I would get nothing for my investment. If the explorers came back, I would get a map- maybe even a somewhat inaccurate map, but I would get it in one turn. I explain my idea at much greater length in the above thread.

 

[Hamah]

As it is now the player has a huge advantage with naval exploration because of the suicide curragh/galley exploit which the AI does not do. We can eliminate this exploit and make things a bit more realistic by requiring ships to return to port before their findings are known. If the ship is lost at sea or destroyed before it arrives at port then all that it has known should be lost.

While we are at it, why not require the same for land exploration? If your explore dies before reporting his findings then all that he discovered should revert to blackness. Communications with other nations and any sort or diplomacy should not be available until your unit reports his discovery.

I like those ideas, it would be more challenging and difficult to explore. But I imagine the flavour of sending your units out and having them back in port and reporting lost of things. And how angry I would get if I sent 3 ships but only one came back.

Good, good.

 

[Pook]

I like those ideas, it would be more challenging and difficult to explore. But I imagine the flavour of sending your units out and having them back in port and reporting lost of things. And how angry I would get if I sent 3 ships but only one came back.

Or if you sent out 3 expeditions and lost all of them at great expense. That's the risk you take. We all know about Christopher Columbus who sailed West to go East. We never hear about his brother Fred who sailed South to go North, because he never came back. Just kidding...

 

[Hamah]

Or if you sent out 3 expeditions and lost all of them at great expense. That's the risk you take. We all know about Christopher Columbus who sailed West to go East. We never hear about his brother Fred who sailed South to go North, because he never came back. Just kidding...

But it would be great.