reverend mother mechanics

[idahopotato]

Let me understand this more. The 100% withdraw rate on the current Atreides Heir enables that unit to start a combat, and never die. It has no effect if that unit is attacked. Did you use this 100% withdraw rate for anything? Attacking some other, really weak unit perhaps?

I put the unit in a stack. The Atreides Heir always attacked first and withdrew effectively. While it didn't do a lot of damage, it would soften them up for a much stronger unit attack, thus almost ensuring victory in evenly matched battles.

 

[davidlallen]

I put the unit in a stack. The Atreides Heir always attacked first and withdrew effectively. While it didn't do a lot of damage, it would soften them up for a much stronger unit attack, thus almost ensuring victory in evenly matched battles.

Interesting! I guess I have not played with this unit much. I am pretty sure the AI will always attack last with this unit because it has low strength. But it is a good strategy for the human player, as long as the unit is healthy. I am sure that after you do this once, the unit is badly damaged and you cannot get much by attacking with it again, until it is healed. I guess it also does not help much in attacking late game units such as heavy scorpions.

In one way, I like the idea of "leading from the front". But does it seem realistic?

 

[Slvynn]

Btw i liked low str 100% withdraw chance too. If prana-bindu is elite technique make it for low str mother units (KH) and fit this escape to it.

 

[idahopotato]

Interesting! I guess I have not played with this unit much. I am pretty sure the AI will always attack last with this unit because it has low strength. But it is a good strategy for the human player, as long as the unit is healthy. I am sure that after you do this once, the unit is badly damaged and you cannot get much by attacking with it again, until it is healed. I guess it also does not help much in attacking late game units such as heavy scorpions.

In one way, I like the idea of "leading from the front". But does it seem realistic?

I have yet to see the AI build this unit, but I put it in the stack and attack with the whole stack, so I imagine it is the AI deciding which unit to use. The Heir unit always goes first and always gets away. You are right that it is almost completely destroyed each attack, and sometimes it does zero damage, but even if it gets off a single point, that is one less point my other units have to do. I only put the unit in the stack when I was attacking the Baron's territory because I thought it would be cool if Paul was with the army. I assumed that the unit would never get a chance to attack, since it was so low in power that all the rest of the units would need to be killed off first. Otherwise, I would never have bothered with the unit in the first place.

 

[davidlallen]

I only put the unit in the stack when I was attacking the Baron's territory because I thought it would be cool if Paul was with the army.

I am sure you put the unit in the stack because it gives all the other units +25% to their attack strength, not *just* because it would be cool. You can see the "Inspiration" promotion on the other units in the stack.

It is an interesting point that the AI never builds this unit. In 1.6.4 this unit is temporarily renamed as a BG UU "Kwisatz Haderach". In 1.6.5 it will become one of a line of four KH units which are built by projects. So, I will have to make sure that the projects get built by the AI.

 

[Ahriman]

The combat strength bonus, first strikes, and first strike immunity apply to all units in the stack.

Ok. Then this seems very strong to me. Playtest will tell.
Also, do you have a way to make sure that the benefits from multiples cannot stack?

Also: will giving the unit Medic AI (or stack defender AI) help the AI know to use them to accompany large stacks?

Where can we put this new tech?

I will think about this when I have the tree in front of me.

Having a building also is fine.

My suggestion for one UB is the Missionaria Protectiva, as an early game (Faith) espionage generator. I could also see a Bene Gesserit Academy as a UB university replacement - I think we used to have something like that?

That is kind of the point. Once the BG get here, they should be unstoppable, or at least that one stack should be unstoppable.

Powerful is one thing, unstoppable is another. The game tends to devolve into super-stacks, so you in some sense having a 50% increase in the entire size of your military. Not even the Avatar units in FFH are that powerful, and they cost thousands of hammers.
We can playtest, of course.

I think we should be open to changing around the late game techs a bit.

I'm definitely open to this.

We have discussed two key effects of prana-bindu from the books: high strength and high speed. These seem to correspond to combat bonuses and first strikes. High speed can also correspond to withdraw promotions, "running away" at high speed. I can add the existing withdraw promotions to the list teachable by Sayyadinas.

This seems reasonable.

The main goal of the GP tech is to enable the GP building. (We need to rename one of these.)

Hmm. "Enforced stability" techname?

This is supposed to represent the stifling effect that choosing the golden path would have had on humanity, despite making them feel happy about it.

Right, and the idea was that it would allow super-cities that woudl still make it worthwhile gameplay wise.

While it didn't do a lot of damage, it would soften them up for a much stronger unit attack, thus almost ensuring victory in evenly matched battles.

I'm surprised, I would have thought the chances of it winning any battle rounds would be very low, given its low strength.

I am pretty sure the AI will always attack last with this unit because it has low strength

I'm not sure this is true. The AI normally atatcks first with the unit that has the highest probability of not dying from the fight. In other mods (FFH/FF), it will very often attack with lower strength high withdraw chance units first. I don't know if this required any particular AI changes, or is generic to BTS.

 

[idahopotato]

I'm not sure this is true. The AI normally atatcks first with the unit that has the highest probability of not dying from the fight. In other mods (FFH/FF), it will very often attack with lower strength high withdraw chance units first. I don't know if this required any particular AI changes, or is generic to BTS.

This has been my experience as well. The only time the cpu attacks me with a stronger unit first, is if it is a vehicle with a high withdraw chance. Otherwise they usually send in weaker units and then stronger ones. While defending, it appears to be the reverse. I haven't played enough to have a large sample size certainty though.

 

[Ahriman]

This has been my experience as well. The only time the cpu attacks me with a stronger unit first, is if it is a vehicle with a high withdraw chance. Otherwise they usually send in weaker units and then stronger ones. While defending, it appears to be the reverse

This seems the opposite of what I meant.

I normally observe that the AI's order of attack is:
1) High withdraw chance units
2) High strength units
3) Medium strength units
4) Low strength units.

You seem to be observing low-strength units *without* withdraw chances attacking before high-strength units?

I have not observed that.

 

[idahopotato]

To be honest, I am not sure. I can't remember ever being attacked by non vehicular units, and I think vehicular units all have a withdraw chance. Usually I am attacked by the small suspensor (mickey mouse looking), vehicles and then the larger tanks. Like I said before, I haven't played this out that much. Due to the difficulty with crossing the desert, I don't often get attacked by the cpu unless I am invading their territory and they attack a stack I have resting up after a battle. When I attack with a stack, the order usually ends up being high withdraw units, lower strength units, higher strength ones, and then ones with a general attached (unless it has high withdraw then it goes first).

 

[Ahriman]

Usually I am attacked by the small suspensor

I can imagine that the AI moves its naval units before it moves its land units. This does not suprprise me. I would be surprised though for a land stack to attack you with weak land units before stronger land units.

I can't remember ever being attacked by non vehicular units, and I think vehicular units all have a withdraw chance.

Vehicle units also have high base-strength. They are designed to attack units outside of cities.

I don't often get attacked by the cpu unless I am invading their territory and they attack a stack I have resting up after a battle

Try increasing the difficulty level, on higher difficulty levels the AI can be very aggressive at amphibious invasions, thanks to Cephalo's improved AI.

lower strength units, higher strength ones

I still find this strange. Perhaps they had different AI's or modifiers, or did collateral damaeg? Do you recall which low-strength units you mean here?

 

[idahopotato]

Yes. With Ix, the Cymeks always attacked first and then the Walkers. With Paul, my Atreides heir went first, then the vehicles (both units withdraw so that still fits your theory), then the Naib's chosen and then finally the Fedaykin. The one Fedaykin unit I had that had a Burseg, usually went somewhere in the middle where it was never killed. Perhaps the AI does this so that I won't be sacrificing a general as cannon fodder.

 

[Hived]

We are getting very "combat-orientated" again
IMO the BG are not "strong attackers", some others also said, that the voice should not be a "combat-action"...
of course the options of Civ are limited... but making them more firm in diplo or culture or even science made me more happy, then seeing them fighting like lions... just my opinion.

Greetz, HivedOne.

 

[Ahriman]

See the spies thread for non-combat BG feature discussion.