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Revised Civics System

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Demo Game II: Citizens' started by Provolution, Jan 5, 2008.

  1. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    REVISED CIVICS SYSTEM

    for CIV4 BTS - a novel demogame approach


    First out, this is a revision (still being tuned) of the original idea, based on inputs from several. The game would use the selection of civics as a basis for elections, with a main election determining several big decisions at once called the CIVIC PRIMARIES, which is in fact one big election between the major ideological, game-technical and personal differences.

    CIVIC PRIMARIES determine the following in one big election, first out


    National Leader (Emperor, King, President, Prime Minister, General or General Secretary)
    Civics combination (the combined civics platform to be enacted upon winning the election
    Cabinet Appointments (the national leader candidate present the future cabinet in case he/she will be elected, if able to do so)
    Presented long term plans for the nation


    Limitations are:

    Whenever the Civics are to be amended, the leader needs to be replaced, in order to reflect regime change. A national leader can only be voted in once throughout the early game (ancient and medieval), but all leaders are welcome to rule once a time again when getting into the industrial era.

    The Campaign Platform for CIVICS PRIMARIES are to be posted by PM to the moderator prior to a set deadline, in order to avoid copycat intrigues, spam and other types of disturbing foul play.


    The winner of the CIVICS PRIMARIES organize other elections, including Judiciary, Governors, Mayors and certain cabinet positions and so on. The CIVIC PRIMARIES winner also handle legal amendment proposals during this election phase, allowing us to concentrate elections and laws in one batch, as CIV4 BTS is so complex, we need to compound both laws, game mechanisms and related elections into a comprensive and cohesive framework.


    The Supreme Court would then review the Ruleset following the winning candidates election, and the Chief Justice would write out the ruleset in legal language and vote on it. Where the Supreme Court (5 Justices), disagree on a presented rule, they can vote on it. The elected leader can still veto it, but only if the rule by the Supreme Court is not an unanimous vote. A full agreement of the Supreme Court cannot be vetoed.

    This allows for a more fluid, transparent and effective model of handling combined regime and civic changes. The first elected leader is initially appointing all five Supreme Court Justices. However, if the existing

    The civics will be the key engine of this demogame model (Civ4 BTS), and would also have some elements handling religions, corporations, land development and so on, as well as espionage. The idea is that each election has cabinet proposals (that can fluctuate from time to time) that the people can vote on in full.

    Example: Year 1540 have 4 parties vying for power, a revolution or reform is called for, and elections are announced due to imminent Civic Change (A direct poll establish the need for an election through civic change, which is held two turnchats after the election is called for).

    PARTY 1. PRINCEDOMS PARTY

    Hereditary Rule
    Vassalage
    Slavery
    Decentralization
    Theocracy

    PARTY 2. ROYALIST PARTY

    Hereditary Rule
    Bureaucracy
    Caste System
    Mercantilism
    Organized Religion

    PARTY 3. EMPERORS PARTY

    Despotism
    Bureaucracy
    Slavery
    Free Market
    Paganism

    PARTY 4. VILLAGE COUNCILS PARTY


    Representation
    Barbarism
    Tribalism
    Decentralization
    Organized Religion

    Each of these four leaders announce they are running for government elections, and they recruit players for their cabinet positions (initially max 4 others than leader) in Faction Threads, where the Civic Platform, intended cabinet positions and so on are announced (Supreme Court is still decided on afterwards regarding appointments). There will be an aggressive political campaign, where the four parties promote their civics combination, as well as laws surrounding the adaptation of the Civic set-up. The winner takes it all, and no 70 % consensus is needed to change rulesets. The base game rules are based on Civic dynamics and main gameplay dynamics, not an artificial Civ3 demogame template constitution. This means that each faction up for election presents a Code that follows that administration. We are emulating history here by the thousands of years, not 4 year increments as some here may think.

    The opposition can still influence through the Supreme Court, which may decide to disagree with the cabinet, through the governors and through the mayors, as well as direct votes. By putting a stronger emphasis on a few "super-elections", these elections get more impact than previous demogame elections where the ruleset was hard to develop at all, due to personal disagreements on style and content, and difficulty in getting consensus.

    The advantage is clear, the parties present rulesets, civics and national plans prior to each election, and the people are free to choose which main course the nation will take, as well as influencing key decisions involving wars, technology, city-builds, wonders, great people and so on (by influencing the separated powers of state and by direct vote). Reducing the voting will reduce voting fatigue.

    Government Civic determines SUCCESSION ORDER, MILITARY POWERS, SUPREME COURT ORGANIZATION and FOREIGN AFFAIRS




    Despotism

    Succession determined by the best individually performing named unit
    Military Leadership handled directly by Leader
    Supreme Court with all 3 justices appointed by leader
    Foreign Affairs represented by leader


    Hereditary Rule

    Succession determined by appointment of 3 Princes, of which the people can choose one
    Military Leadership by one of the Princes appointed by leader
    Supreme Court, two appointments (1 old, 1 Prince) and 1 elected judge of the people
    Foreign Affairs handled by one of the Princes appointed by leader

    Representation

    Succession determined by election between provincial candidates
    Military Leadership by General appointed by leader and approved by governors
    Supreme Court, two elections and 1 appointment (1 old)
    Foreign Affairs handled by Foreign Minister

    Police State

    Succession determined by appointment from the Cabinet Members
    Military Leadership by General appointed by leader and approved by Cabinet (Junta)
    Supreme Court appointed by leader and can be overruled by leader
    Foreign Affairs handled by Foreign Minister approved by Cabinet

    Universal Suffrage

    Succession by direct elections of self-nominated leader candidates
    Military Leadership by General appointed by leader and approved by direct poll
    Supreme Court decided on by 3 direct elections
    Foreign Affairs handled by Foreign Minister appointed by leader and approved by people

    Legal Civic determines the extent of regional vs. central power, MILITARY UNIT OWNERSHIP, CITY CONTROL and PROVINCE CONTROL

    Barbarism "Rulership of the lands by imperial decree"

    Military Units distributed to citizens by city mayors (one each)
    Cities distributed to mayors by leader
    Provinces distributed to governors by leader

    Vassalage "Rulership of the lands by powerful governors"

    Military Units distributed to citizens by governors (one each)
    Cities distributed to mayors by governors (one each)
    Provinces distributed to governors by leader

    Bureaucracy "Administration of the lands by court order"

    Military Units distributed to citizens by leader (one each)
    Cities distributed to mayors by Supreme Court (one each)
    Provinces distributed to governors by Supreme Court (one each)

    Nationhood "Administration of the nation by cabinet order"

    Military Units distributed to citizens by leader (one each)
    Cities distributed to mayors by Cabinet
    Provinces distributed to governors by Cabinet

    Free Speech "People govern themselves"

    Military units distributed to citizens by leader (one each)
    Cities distributed to mayors in direct elections
    Provinces distributed to governors by direct elections


    Labor Civic determines the control over workers, placement of land improvements, great people usage and wonders


    Tribalism

    Worker usage handled by open citizen discussions and polls
    Placement of land improvements open citizen discussions and polls
    Great people usage by citizen discussions and polls
    Wonders handled by citizen discussions and polls

    Slavery

    workers handled by leader
    Placement of land improvements by leader
    Great people usage by leader
    Wonders handled by leader

    Serfdom

    workers handled by governors
    Placement of land improvements by governors
    Great people usage by governors
    Wonders handled by governors

    Caste System

    workers handled by closest mayor
    placement of land improvements by closest mayor
    Great people usage by city mayor
    Wonders handled by city mayors


    Emancipation

    Workers handled by citizen owners (1 each), can transfer control voluntarily to any player (state control, unionize or other outcome)
    placement of land improvements handled by those that control the workers at any time
    Great people usage decided by citizen discussions and polls
    Wonders decided on by citizen discussions and polls

    Economy Civic determines the extent of state vs. market powers, TAXATION, TECHNOLOGY PLAN, TRADE and FINANCIAL POLICY SLIDER


    Decentralization

    City-building decided by discussions and polls
    Technology decided with each mayor nominates a technology sequence, and people decide which in a poll
    Trades handled by biggest city mayor
    Taxation handled by biggest province governor
    Financial policy slider handled by the average of proposed slider settings by governors

    Mercantilism

    City-building decided by leader nomination and citizen approval poll
    Technology,decided with each governor nominates a technology sequence, and people decide which in a poll
    Trades handled by leader (no trades)
    Taxation handled by leader
    Financial policy slider handled by leader

    Free Market

    City building options nominated by Banker and voted on by citizens
    Technology decided by discussions and direct polls by citizens
    Trades handled by discussions and direct polls by citizens
    Taxation handled by discussions and direct polls by citizens
    Financial policy slider handled by a Banker nominated and elected in a direct poll (open election)

    State Property

    City-building options decided on by Cabinet
    Technology selection handled by Technology Minister
    Trades handled by Trade Minister
    Taxation handled Finance Minister
    Financial policy slider handled by a Central Bank Director

    Environmentalism "Legally bound economic policies by environmental laws"

    City-building options decided on by Supreme Court
    Technology handled by Supreme Court
    Trades handled by Supreme Court
    Taxation handled by Supreme Court
    Financial policy slider handled by Chief Justice


    Religion Civic determines the extent of state vs. religious power, handles STATE RELIGION, MISSIONARIES, RELIGIOUS BUILDINGS and CONVERSION


    Paganism

    State religion decided on by default (research)
    Missionaries handled by discussions and polls
    Religious builds handled discussions and polls
    conversions handled by discussions and polls

    Organized Religion

    State religion decided on by leader
    Missionaries handled by leader
    religious builds handled by leader
    conversions handled by leader

    Theocracy

    State religion decided on by High Priest
    Missionaries handled by high priest
    Religious builds handled by High Priest
    Special: Great Prophet handled by High Priest

    Pacifism

    State religion decided on by direct popular vote
    Missionaries handled by Supreme Court
    Religious builds handled by Supreme Court

    Free Religion

    No state religion
    Missionaries and religious builds at mayor discretion


    Please develop more on this. I made some of it easier, and remember, Decentralization, Tribalism and Paganism somehow balances some of the central control under despotism and barbarism.
     
  2. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I'm not sure why you wanted a separate thread, instead of continuing the discussion in the old one.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like we'd have 1-2 months of a leader with nearly absolute power, given that all other officials are appointed by the leader?
     
  3. Strider

    Strider In Retrospect

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    I'll say the same thing as my first comments about the idea.

    Stupid and Simple. We need to find a way to say the same thing in considerably less space. No one is going to want to join something with a "ruleset" that looks like that.

    Other wise.. looks fine. Need to simplify though.
     
  4. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I mind you, this is way simpler than most demogames I have seen, as you remove some other noise from the game.

    But I wait for others to comment on where to simplify and how, so we get a broader consensus. Maybe we concentrate on the government and legal civics, and let the leader himself present a plan for how he wants to organize labor, economy and religion (in a historical manner of course).

    When CIVIC PRIMARIES take place, the Leader Candidate picks the CIVICS he wants to front, as well as decide on game goals and appointments. For the average new player, they will see three candidates portrayed like this example how things are organized (during election the CIVIC Packages and planned appointments and policies would be quite easy to understand, as the options are clearly defined, so it is quite easy in implementation:


    STRIDER, representing the ROYALIST FACTION


    Hereditary Rule

    Succession determined by appointment of 3 Princes, of which the people can choose one
    Military Leadership by one of the Princes appointed by leader
    Supreme Court, two appointments (1 old, 1 Prince) and 1 elected judge of the people
    Foreign Affairs handled by one of the Princes appointed by leader

    Vassalage "Rulership of the lands by powerful governors"

    Military Units distributed to citizens by governors (one each)
    Cities distributed to mayors by governors (one each)
    Provinces distributed to governors by leader

    Serfdom

    workers handled by governors
    Placement of land improvements by governors
    Great people usage by governors
    Wonders handled by governors



    Mercantilism

    City-building decided by leader nomination and citizen approval poll
    Technology,decided with each governor nominates a technology sequence, and people decide which in a poll
    Trades handled by leader (no trades)
    Taxation handled by leader
    Financial policy slider handled by leader

    Organized Religion


    State religion decided on by leader
    Missionaries handled by leader
    religious builds handled by leader
    conversions handled by leader


    DAVESHACK, representing the SENATE FACTION

    Representation

    Succession determined by election between provincial candidates
    Military Leadership by General appointed by leader and approved by governors
    Supreme Court, two elections and 1 appointment (1 old)
    Foreign Affairs handled by Foreign Minister

    Bureaucracy "Administration of the lands by court order"


    Military Units distributed to citizens by leader (one each)
    Cities distributed to mayors by Supreme Court (one each)
    Provinces distributed to governors by Supreme Court (one each)

    Caste System

    workers handled by closest mayor
    placement of land improvements by closest mayor
    Great people usage by city mayor
    Wonders handled by city mayors


    Free Market

    City building options nominated by Banker and voted on by citizens
    Technology decided by discussions and direct polls by citizens
    Trades handled by discussions and direct polls by citizens
    Taxation handled by discussions and direct polls by citizens
    Financial policy slider handled by a Banker nominated and elected in a direct poll (open election)

    Paganism

    State religion decided on by default (research)
    Missionaries handled by discussions and polls
    Religious builds handled discussions and polls
    conversions handled by discussions and polls



    DONSIG, representing PRIESTS OF SET

    Police State

    Succession determined by appointment from the Cabinet Members
    Military Leadership by General appointed by leader and approved by Cabinet (Junta)
    Supreme Court appointed by leader and can be overruled by leader
    Foreign Affairs handled by Foreign Minister approved by Cabinet

    Barbarism "Rulership of the lands by imperial decree"


    Military Units distributed to citizens by city mayors (one each)
    Cities distributed to mayors by leader
    Provinces distributed to governors by leader

    Slavery

    workers handled by leader
    Placement of land improvements by leader
    Great people usage by leader
    Wonders handled by leader

    Mercantilism

    City-building decided by leader nomination and citizen approval poll
    Technology,decided with each governor nominates a technology sequence, and people decide which in a poll
    Trades handled by leader (no trades)
    Taxation handled by leader
    Financial policy slider handled by leader

    Theocracy

    State religion decided on by High Priest
    Missionaries handled by high priest
    Religious builds handled by High Priest
    Special: Great Prophet handled by High Priest


    THE STRIDER KINGDOM


    Hereditary Rule
    Vassalage "Rulership of the lands by powerful governors"
    Serfdom
    Mercantilism
    Organized Religion

    The Strider Kingdom comprise of a King with his three heirs, Prince Civgeneral, Prince Nobody and little Prince Cyc. These are in a line of succession, but it is up to the people to decide who is the next king (If hereditary rule is wanted in the next election).

    Prince Civgeneral is the General of the Roman Army

    Prince Nobody is appointed Chief Justice, where Blackhole is a former justice that carries on as justice. Justice Donsig is elected from the people.

    Prince Cyc is the Foreign Minister

    The three Princes are also governors of the Strider Kingdom, of each their Princedom granted to them by King Strider. These three distribute military units to citizens from their provinces, depending on where citizens live. The princes also distribute fiefdoms, cities, to their feudal subjects in their princedoms. The princes all handle the serfs in their respective provinces, and decide what should be done with their lands. The building of great projects and the employment of geniuses are at the discretion of the respective courts in the Princedoms. Prince Civgeneral has asked for Military Tradition, Prince Nobody has asked for Astronomy and Prince Cyc has asked for Divine Rights, but the people decide which Prince they support.

    King Strider decides which sites he wants to build his cities at, but the people decide if they want to move there or not. King Strider decide on trades, as well as decide on taxes as well as financial policies.
    King Strider has decided that the State Religion of Rome is Christianity, and runs the Church as the sovereign King he is (Henry VIII style).

    DAVESHACK, representing the SENATE FACTION

    Representation
    Bureaucracy "Administration of the lands by court order"
    Free Market
    Caste System
    Paganism

    DAVESHACKs Senatorial Rome chooses the next leader from the leading candidates nominated by the provinces of Rome, which are elected by the people.

    Consul Daveshack has appointed Grant2004 to be the nations General, something that the governors has approved. The Foreign Affairs Minister, Ginger Ale, has also been appointed and approved the same way.
    Daveshack appointed Justice Blackhole from the previous Court to be the new Chief Justice, where the other two judges Methos and Robboo were directly elected. Consul Daveshack distributes new military units on a running basis to his countrymen

    The Supreme Court, lead by Chief Justice Blackhole, as well as Justice Methos and Justice Robboo, handle state and private property rights. Cities and provinces are distributed by them, and where disputes occur, let the peoples Jury decide in the court.

    The local democracy allows for letting the local city mayors to decide the organization of workers in their district, land development as well as local great projects and how to put the city's homegrown great sons and daughters to good use.

    The Free Market of Rome allows for all new technologies, trades and taxation levels to be handled by the people in discussions and votes, the free market governs itself. However, the people has decided to have an election for a Banker (National Bank), that gives credit to build new cities the people want for themselves. The Banker nominates city sites, and the people choose where they want to settle themselves. The Banker also determine financial policy of Rome. As with the market, the religion of Rome is more or less belief in fairies and folktales, but the government arguably promotes Hinduism, so religious issues is left to the people to decide.


    THE HOLY REALM OF SERPENTINE DONSIG

    Police State
    Barbarism
    Slavery
    Mercantilism
    Theocracy

    The Holy Realm of Serpentine Donsig is a Police State, where the next leader is taken on an appointment between the Cabinet Members. High Priest Donsig has appointed Joe Harker as General and Ice2k4 as Foreign Minister, both approved by the Junta.

    The speculative Donsig has appointed Provolution, Ravensfire and Donovan Zoi in order to make sure the realm has enough social turbulence to entertain him, and he rejoices, as he can overrule his court at any time.

    High Priest Donsig has a direct control over the workers, land development, great people and wonders through a firm grip on his worshippers.
    Donsig decides where to build his cities, and the citizen decides if they want to go there or not. Donsig also handles trades, taxation and financial policies,
    Donsig is also the supreme power in terms of all religious matters, as well as distributing cities and provinces to his worshippers.

    Donsig allows regional cardinals to nominate new technology projects the people can choose from.

    Locally, all military units comprise of local militias set up by mayors and granted to local citizens.
     
  5. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    Ok, I understand the first round need some tweaking. But then again, we want to emulate how things were run 4000 BC to 2000 BC, and not like modern democracy right there. Still, we want the citizen to come with some feedback. Barbarism, Decentralization and Paganism could be more citizen-friendly areas, as the leader had less powers there. Look at those three Civics, and you will see that the people decide more there.

    Remember that Tribalism, Decentralization and Paganism balances central powers somewhat. Remember, we are not planning for a traditional demogame here, but a game that somehow emulates history, as Donsig and several of us wanted, yet be true to a common ruleframe.
     
  6. robboo

    robboo Deity

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    I am with strider..KISS...Keep It Simple Stupid. Let the rollplay aspect be more complicated.
     
  7. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    Well, it is quite simple, as the CIVIC PRIMARIES would present the civic packages from each candidate in a simple manner. We all know how long these election threads may be anyways. Here the candidates can piece together a platform they like best, and compete head on head.

    I know it may look challening at first, but on a closer look it is way simpler than most of the demogames we had before, and CIV4 BTS is more complex in itself. We need to address all CIVICS in the set-up, or we will not have ways to balance out Despotism and Barbarism with Tribalism, Decentralization and Paganism. Also, we cannot make Despotism feel democratic at all, so we let other mechanisms represent the citizens freedom/influence in the game.
    We also need to allow for a fascist dictatorship and an open democracy, in order to open for all types of regime changes, and make these regime changes be felt not only in-game, but also in the demogame, as it should be.

    If some of you could test out the CIVICS PRIMARIES by setting up 3-4 token parties around 1450 AD (techwise), that would help to understand how a Candidate Platform would be set-up. Choose five civics from the five branches, and place some candidates in the positions and organize which powers these will get.
    Democracy games should be accessible, but also immersive, that is why we had long rulesets before. However, the CIVIC PRIMARIES more or less present the alternatives players can choose from, and these are indeed presented more easy. It will require some thought from the leader candidates, but that is how it should be.

    I want some comments on the content, then I will start editing and make the presentation much simpler.
     
  8. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Emperor

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    Content based I don't like it that much, because besides the fact it looks a bit complicated to me, your trying to make the meta game reflect in-game decisions. I like some of your ideas of vying political factions, but I think that a transfer of power through has to come through civics change is really unrealistic. It's almost like saying England had one leader throughout its period of absolutism or America electing a new President every time we change our social structure. I also think that we would need to play this game on an easier difficulty, because the meta game is going to have a pretty big effect on the in-game tasks, and they don't look like they're going to be for the better. Don't mind my comments much though, since I'm one of the few traditionalists around here.

    If you don't mind, I'll try and think up a system that modifies your core ideas a bit, but doesn't leave the actual game in the hands of the thirst for power.

    Edit: Also I'm worried about parties being based on the civics they choose. I mean at times, there really are only 1 set of efficient civics, especially if our past puts in a situation where there are no real options. Do you really think you can get 4 parties with different civic views all the time? I honestly doubt you'll see many factions rise.
     
  9. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    There will be no constant parties, people can decide to pick and represent the faction they want, so in some time periods, you may see 4-5 royalist parties asking for the same position. Also, there is no perpetual faction loyalty

    CIV4 is unrealistic in the outset, what we need to do is to make the CIVIC changes become the driver mainly for organizational reasons as well. Whenever we have a CIVIC change, the game grinds to a halt becomes it is a major political issue, and if we do not combine that with leader elections, it would be very impractical.

    A middle ground solution would be to trim away RELIGION CIVIC and LABOR CIVIC, and leave this to the discretion of the Leader candidates on how they would interpret their civic.

    Well, it is also unrealistic that we have on in-game leader throughout the game, like Churchhill 4000 BC, or Elisabeth for that matter. It is also unrealistic that we follow elections per term, and very impractical. A player that is elected as leader does not represent a single person, but more of a bloodline, dynasty, clan or national faction that manage to assert power by bringing several other dynasties, clans and interest groups to their side. The Civics changes represent real political change, so when we are changing civics, we also change the people running the system, as a new system very often replace leadership. Just look at Putins Russia. Also, the aspect of Anarchy makes reforms hard to make, just look how hard it was to make CIVIC changes last game, you had to drag some wild horses through the barngate, and you barely made it. A majority of the energy I spent last game on policies was on CIVIC changes, as these were disjointed from elections and other processes. I also felt having liberal democracy processes from day 1, with a game variation of US Constitution to be a bit bland and uninspiring. What if we had a smarter, more integral, yet historically relevant structure for handling regime changes.

    I know this is a new way of thinking, and a break with the traditional CIV3 style demogame structure, but please give it a fair chance, as I know with the right inputs and tweaks, it can be a real success, as it will remove a lot of in-game noise with conflicting discussions, polls, elections and rule-sets that conflicts each others. CIVIC PRIMARIES will process elections, civics, game-plans and some appointments in one go, and make elections more worthwhile again. To skeptics that are afraid of game dictatorship in the early game despotism, I have made economy civic decentralization handle city building and technology choices from the citizen level. However, the military, workers and so on is fully in the hands of the despot, as I am sick and tired on watching discussions and polls on where the scout or warrior should go.

    But please go ahead and come with a new adaptation, as long as we combine leader elections with civic changes, appointments and game plans so we get things done in one go.
     
  10. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I think it depends. I think elections should be about real alternatives, not just buddies replacing each other in tame elections over various departments, which also is really unrealistic, in particular 2000 BC. Civics is also only part of the platform, visions for which wonders a player will build and so on, border expansion and other issues will also play in. You can have 3 royalist factions, where one is more peaceful builder oriented, another more warlike and the third more interested in naval exploration and overseas colonies for example. Civics are not copyrighted, but part of the platform. However, these platforms are to be submitted by PM to moderator, so platforms are not changed midstream before an election. This will avoid some players to steal ideas or weaken ideas before all platforms are published at once by the election moderator.
     
  11. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Emperor

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    If two parties can have the same civics choices, then how is this system civic driven. It seems much more like a party driven system, where your main focus is civic choice. But if Party A, Party B, and Party C all have the same civics on there platform, it really becomes like all past elections. I'm not seeing the difference. I understand that in order to have a transfer of power, a civic change needs to occur, but I'm not sold on that component of your system either.
     
  12. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    Then again, you want traditional, and work hard to get that system again. However, several players, like me, Donsig and a few others, would like some historicity to the game. We had a vote, and more than half us did not want yet another "traditional" demogame, so I am not sold to the conservatives either.

    The system is Civics-driven, in the sense that it is the first question to be asked, and if no one wants to change civics, there is no need to change leadership. In this way, we make a focus on a civic change the key driver on the game, as it imposes a mild handicap to have elections, as anarchy occurs. The main difference is of course that it seems party driven, but the civics dictate the distribution of power between State and People (Government civic), State and Regions (Legal civic) and State and Market (Economy Civic).

    This will be much different from past elections, since we make the national leader elections first, and the nature of the civics dictate which appointments, successors and other elections take place, so civics do matter for the distribution of power in the game. Hereditary Rule and Vassalage makes for a less democratic structure, where Representation and so on makes for a more democratic structure.

    You might not be sold, and I am yet to see your vision for next game. I hope for some helpful input here, as I cannot make this game on my own, and you said you had something good. So, I am not selling a system, I am seeking to break the deadlock by bringing forwards a new vision. I am not going to sit here and feel nostalgia about old demogames alone, like some do, but try to make this in line with Civ4 BTS and the strong call for a roleplay style game with some historicity to it.

    I got some feedback on the need for simplification, and other types of feedback from Locce and Joe Harker. What feedback we do not need is "traditional demogame", "can't do", "We want something like the US Constitution" or some other argument that brings us nowhere.
     
  13. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Emperor

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    When did we have this vote? If you're referring to the vote about playing another demogame, I think you forget it was not multiple-choice, and it didn't ask what type of game you would like to play, but if you would like to play. Almost two polls in one. I didn't even vote for traditional in that poll, since there was the option for waiting a few months.

    EDIT: I stand corrected, I just saw the pol lyour referring to now, however that poll is 3 months old. And I'm not strictly traditionalist (as I voted for a rp oriented demogame in that poll), I just feel that your system is taking the wrong approach to a more role play oriented demogame.

    So a civics change is the only reason for a change in leadership? What if we run into an unexpected war, and the current leader has been known for his peace-time success, but war-time failures? I think a leadership change may be wanted.

    If your referring to me, I don't mean to deter your system's arrival to the demogame, nor am I dishing out one word posts that oppose your system, I'm just trying to shell out some helpful criticism so we can work to make it a bit better. I have no real problem with what you are proposing.
     
  14. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I am just trying to break a deadlock here, and I think making the metagame interact with the real game is the best way to do it. At least for me, and a few others, would like to see the Civics interact with government, other officials and citizens powers.


    So a civics change is the only reason for a change in leadership? What if we run into an unexpected war, and the current leader has been known for his peace-time success, but war-time failures? I think a leadership change may be wanted.

    This is where we use the rule of succession, as I wrote in the government civics, for hereditary rule, we choose between the three princes, for example.
    Civics change suggests a revolution or sweeping reform, where a simple change of leadership would be handled by succession rules. If you read the system closely, you will see these succession points under government civics.

    I was mainly referring to Civgeneral, in particular, and a few of the tradionalists there, in general. traditional demogames and Civ3 is out of the question for me at least. I thank you for your criticism, as I am getting better at patching holes in the proposal (a sort of timer for avoiding leaders changing civics to remain in power) or arguing for existing features (how succession rules allow changes on a regular basis without civic changes).

    A succession struggle could be handled as an election with limited number of candidates, for Despotism, owners of 4 best performing military units or Emperor, for hereditary rule the princes or King and for Representation a real election, for Police State, dictator or cabinet members and for Universal Suffrage another real direct election).
     
  15. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    Here's some of my thoughts, and proposals

    This is a quick write-up as it's late, and I have to get to sleep. It's by no means complete.

    Government Civics (governs elections, and cabinet positions)

    Despotism - Power is wielded by a warlord. Appoints leaders and governors. Offices are only held by appointment. As a rule (for fairness), the despot must elect a different official the next term. A player can only be an official for 2 terms. Each term, the despot is "overthrown", and a new despot is selected from the group of current officials. The despot also appoints leaders of citizen groups. Only the despot plays the next set of turns.

    Hereditary Rule - Power is wielded by a reign of monarchs. After each turnchat (or turnset), power gets passed on to the next in line to the throne. The current monarch selects a person to be the prince/princess that becomes the next monarch. A player must wait 2 coronations (crowing as monarch) before they can be a monarch again. Their thread title would be something like "Reign of King Robboo", "Reign of Queen Furiey", "Reign of King Dutchfire", "Reign of King Robboo II". (As you can see, if a player is monarch again, they have a II, III, IV, V, etc. after their name). Citizen Groups (called Guilds if Vassalage and Caste System are also civics) are a very integral part of this system. They can petition the king or queen for certain favors, such as acquiring more spices, or a quest to claim a city. There is no election of a monarch (unless you wanted an republican-monarchy system where the senate actually elected the next heir), however, the people can overthrow the current monarch and appoint their own monarch.

    Note - It might be interesting if there were a monarchial "family" (yes, family fueds included for those so inclined), with dukes, marquis, barons, counts, etc.. It might be confusing though, if there's not enough people... or too many.

    Representation - Power is wielded by the Prime Minister. The people directly elect a Prime Minister, however, the PM appoints officials and governors. The governors, and other positions are approved by a 2/3rds majority from the appointed officials. (This is similar to the Civ3 DG1 ruleset - it was almost more of a Game of Republic.). The people (congress) can overrule an appointment with a 2/3rds majority.

    Police State - Power is wielded by the Military Advisor only. The military advisor appoints all other positions, including governors, and takes command of build queues. A nation in this civic is essentially under martial law. The people have no power in a police state. This is a defacto-wartime civic. The military leader determines succession

    Universal Suffrage - Power is wielded by the people, with a president as the head. This has direct elections of all officials and governors.

    Legal Civics

    Barbarism - Disputes are handled by mob rule. :eek: There is no judiciary at the moment. If a dispute arises, a citizen may create a thread indicating the said infraction. After a given timeframe, a poll is created to determine guilt/innocence. (remember Public Investigations from half the Civ3 demogames?) Disputes are ultimately resolved by the current leader of the nation.

    Vassalage -

    Bureaucracy -
    Nationhood
    Free Speech

    Labor Civics (governs use of workers, cities, build queues, priority of resources...)

    Tribalism
    Slavery
    Serfdom
    Caste System
    Emancipation

    Economic Civics (governs trade, technology, tech/gold/culture slider)

    Decentralization - ??
    Mercantilism - Citizen Groups and guilds have a greater role here.
    Free Market - ??
    State Property - Everything is owned by the state. The state makes all of the decisions regarding build queues and such.
    Environmentalism - Not sure about this one.

    Religious Civics (governs cultural and religous buildings, wonders, spread of religion)

    Paganism - The "culture advisor" is called the shaman and can start religous improvements (temples, religous wonders).
    Organized Religion - This is governed by the Culture Advisor, who starts thread discussions on religous projects.
    Theocracy - Religion is ruled by the leader. The leader decides where missionaries go, what religous buildings are to be built, etc.
    Pacifism - Not sure about this one.
    Free Religion - No Culture Advisor. It's left up to the will of the people.


    Revolts - At any time, the people may start a revolt. The thread starter is the revolutionary leader (and may be the next despot/monarch/PM/president/dictator (police state). If the revolt fails, that player is "dead" for the remainder of the term, and can not be elected during the next term. They can still participate in polls, discussions, citizen groups, etc.


    Political Parties - I'm still weary about this. It's been a long-standing forum rule that political parties should not be allowed (as they can exclude members - i.e., via voting blocs).

    I think my most major concern is that we might never be in a civic, or a combination of civics that allows for a true Game of Democracy. Even in Civ3, we didn't change the way we voted based on if we were in Despotism, Republic, Monarchy, etc..
     
  16. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    This is very good Chieftess, we are getting somewhere :)
     
  17. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    All good.

    It should be 2/3 needed to overrule an Representation appointment, not the other way around, as we want to make sure appointments go smoothly, unless there is strong resistance to the candidates.

    Only a general should call for a Police State in a revolution, which would make the game more interesting. Every gameworld got their Franco, Pinochet, General Park, Hugo Chavez and so on. Police State should be exclusive to these military types. This could also be a roleplay aspect, that each player picks a role before the game starts (Military, Church, Trade, Nobility, Working Class)
    Agreed.


    Make Government Civic the basis of the Cabinet, which includes National Leader, Military Leader, Foreign Affairs Leader, Finance Leader and Intelligence Leader.
    The Cabinet competes directly against the cabinet for influence in the provinces and cities for agricultural and industrial interests and for building food-producing and hammer-producing buildings. The Cabinet tries to run the nation as a whole, with the other elected leaders.
    Great General, Great Scientist and Great Artist belongs to the Cabinet

    Agreed, that was indeed barbaric, but good for depicting barbarism.
    We make 3 most powerful governors arbitrate here as a Supreme Court, whenever a case comes up.

    Supreme Court can be established here with 3 judges, which are taken from 3 cabinet positions.

    We can set up a complete, independent Supreme Court of 3 judges, as the lawmakers has historically gotten more powers at this point. This may actually be needed to handle rights for running corporations, space programs, espionage and other late game developments which require some adaptation of the CIVIC System. Each position is directly elected.

    Every new dispute/law is discussed and polled, since at this stage, media makes sure everyone knows and argues their legal rights. Supreme Court arbitrates and reviews.

    Make Legal Civic the basis of a directly elective position, Supreme Justice.
    The Supreme Justice competes directly against the cabinet for influence in the provinces and cities for judicial interests and for building law, police and security buildings buildings. .
    Great Spy belongs to the Supreme Justice.



    Make Labor Civic the basis of a directly elective position, the Governor/Prince/Viceroy/Regional Party Boss.
    The Governor competes directly against the cabinet for influence in the provinces and cities for agricultural and industrial interests and for building food-producing and hammer-producing buildings. The Governor wants to make the cities produce food and hammers- .
    Great Engineer belongs to the Governor.


    Tribalism

    Cities People (tribal council)
    Build Queues Cabinet
    Great Engineer Governors
    Workers Governors


    Slavery

    Cities Cabinet
    Build Queues Governors
    Great Engineer Governors
    Workers Governors

    Serfdom

    Cities Governors
    Build Queues Governors
    Great Engineer Governors
    Workers Governors

    Caste System

    Cities Cabinet
    Build Queues Governors
    Great Engineer People
    Workers Mayors

    Emancipation

    Cities People
    Build Queues Governors
    Great Engineer People
    Workers Cabinet

    Make Economic Civic the basis of a directly elective position, a Banker/Merchant Prince/Industrialist/Oligarch that competes directly against the cabinet for influence in the provinces and cities for commercial interests and for building gold-producing and happiness-producing buildings. The Oligarch wants to make the cities produce gold and happy faces, .
    Great Merchant belongs to the Oligarch.

    Decentralization:

    Slider Oligarch
    Trades Oligarch
    Technology People


    Mercantilism:


    Slider Oligarch
    Trades Cabinet
    Technology People

    Free Market:


    Slider Oligarch
    Trades Oligarch
    Technology Oligarch


    State Property:


    Slider Cabinet
    Trades Cabinet
    Technology Cabinet


    Environmentalism:


    Slider Oligarch
    Trades People
    Technology People

    Religious Civics (governs cultural and religous buildings, wonders, spread of religion)
    Make Religion Civic the basis of an directly elective position, a High Priest/Pope/Shaman role that competes directly against the cabinet for influence in the provinces and cities. The High Priest wants to make the cities produce cultural improvements, religious buildings, missionaries and so on.
    Great Prophets belong to the High Priest.

    Paganism:

    State Religion High Priest
    Great Prophet High Priest
    Wonders People
    Culture buildings Governors
    Missionaries High Priest

    Organized Religion:


    State Religion Cabinet
    Great Prophet High Priest
    Wonders Cabinet
    Culture buildings Cabinet
    Missionaries High Priest


    Theocracy:


    State Religion High Priest
    Great Prophet High Priest
    Wonders High Priest
    Culture buildings High Priest
    Missionaries High Priest

    Pacifism:


    State Religion High Priest
    Great Prophet High Priest
    Wonders People
    Culture buildings Cabinet
    Missionaries High Priest

    Free Religion:


    State Religion None
    Great Prophet High Priest
    Wonders People
    Culture buildings Oligarch
    Missionaries High Priest

    Good one, this will make sure leaders that are bad are overthrown, I suggest 50 % support for a rebellion/reform would do. This is something I would like carried on from Daveshacks last system, but for taking down the entire cabinet, not just challenging bits of it.


    There will be no real political party, but a FACTION PLATFORM, that is mostly the platform of the national leader candidate (a person, not a party). The appointments made after the election may be across party lines and so on, and parties are strictly not needed, as every election would see different alliances and team-structures, like in traditional demogame elections.



    Remember, Decentralization allows for the citizens to decide technology and city locations via discussions and polls. Mostly, the citizens are bereft of military control (as they should be), of slider control (as they should be), worker control and of foreign affairs/trade in the early stages.

    These were just some elaborations on Chieftess points, now the CIVICS are strictly doing what their titles says, and all in-game functions are placed on offices for all civic situations.
     
  18. Strider

    Strider In Retrospect

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    I haven't seen anything about this, but what about civic changes carrying over?

    Using your examples from above. Say we are currently in the "Daveshack Faction" of civics, but we had earlier been inside the Holy Empire of Serpentine and The Strider Kingdom. To be realistic, both the monarchy and church would not disappear, but they'd just lose power.

    Just the idea of having a Royal Family, Senate, and Church (think roman catholic church several hundred years ago) vying for power constantly sounds awesome. The "democratic" element would be that they need the support of the masses to make any civic changes (and put themselves back in power).
     

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