Revisiting the Combat Promotion

[Phatkarp]

Thanks for the explanation, JujuLautre.

I tend to agree with the Bear that it seems like CR is over-emphasized in many of the game threads here in the strategy forums. Though its obviously situational, I find that after siege units come on line you only need one or two CR units, whose sole job is to crack the toughest nut in the city defender's stack. Any number beyond that ends up being overkill on the CR promotion, which leaves your stack otherwise vulnerable.

Off topic, the other trend I see in game threads here in the strategy forum are SoD's that are entirely too big. That's my .02, and given my skill level that's all it's worth.

 

[Sero Sed Serio]

My stacks in the bronze/iron era of axes, swords, and spears, and before catapults, tend to look like this:

3+ axemen with Combat I and Shock to combat other axemen and swordsmen.
2 spearmen with Combat I purely to counter horsemen.
As many swordsmen with city raider as possible.

When catapults come around, it looks more like this:

3+ Combat 1/Shock axemen, with Combat 2 an 3 if I can get it.
2 Combat 1 spearmen, one with the anti-archery promotion if I can get it to further deter horse archers, and one with medic.
3+ CR Swordsmen
Many catapults, all with city raider. Why city raider? Because it adds to their effective HP, which I believe allows them to cause more damage than the 10% or 20% Collateral Damage bonus gives.

Think about it... 20% of .4 is... well it's not even .1, though it may get rounded to that. I am positive my catapult will do more than .1 extra damage to a unit with the city raider lifting it's attack power to 6. Granted, collateral damage hits all the guys in the stack with an additional .1 damage or so, but in my experience I lose less catapults going multiple promos of city raider than I do by stacking collateral damage bonuses and just smashing catapults against a city.

Not to thread jack, but I have question: Do the anti-archery and shock promos work against the mounted melee and archery units? Like does a horse archer qualify as an archer, a knight as melee? I think it does, but I was wondering what others' experiences were.

 

[slobberinbear]

Sero -- IMHO, Spears are useful for two things: anti-mounted, and as medic units if you don't want to use a chariot. For anti-mounted, you want Combat II so you can get Formation.

As far as catapult promos, yeah, the Barrage promo was dissected in another thread, and the CR promotion is favored for "suicide siege," mainly because it effectively removes most/all of the defender bonuses for fortification, city defense, etc. It gets even uglier with cannons, since they have such a great base strength.

If you actually get a siege unit past CR III, I would probably look at combat promos after that, to raise base strength.

 

[Sero Sed Serio]

I've had some pretty wicked catapults before.

Slobberinbear: Yeah, I use my spears as anti-mounted and as medics, as you can see there. I am using vanilla Civ 4, and I don't know the terms well, so I am not sure what formation is. The anti-archery promo was to take care of mounted archers more effectively, but I am not sure if it works that way.

 

[Everest]

No, it doesn't. Formation is the promo against mounted, available with C2. Take that.

 

[Polobo]

Sero - A unit can only have 1 type (melee, gunpowder, siege, etc...). Thus, only a single specific counter promotion will work against them. Most of them make sense with one major exception: machine guns are siege units, thus pinch will not work against them (but the marine's bonus does).

Also, should you upgrade to BtS 3.17 siege can no longer receive the combat line of promotions so after CR you are pretty much forced to go drill (barrage would work too I guess, but by the time you get your siege that high you'll be using cannon+ and those have a high base strength that can benefit from drill.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Sero -- IMHO, Spears are useful for two things: anti-mounted, and as medic units if you don't want to use a chariot. For anti-mounted, you want Combat II so you can get Formation.

As far as catapult promos, yeah, the Barrage promo was dissected in another thread, and the CR promotion is favored for "suicide siege," mainly because it effectively removes most/all of the defender bonuses for fortification, city defense, etc. It gets even uglier with cannons, since they have such a great base strength.

If you actually get a siege unit past CR III, I would probably look at combat promos after that, to raise base strength.

In 3.17 you can no long give siege combat promos , but prior to that I'd agree with you!

CR almost always beats combat when attacking cities. Usually the units set to this duty are quite specialized for it - swords, maces, etc. I agree that it's over-emphasized though.

For example, cover crossbows (!) are actually pretty nasty city attackers in their time. This is because they have an inherent melee bonus already, so cover won't usually draw out another defender.

I always keep some combat - line units in my stack while it's moving though - to protect it. Combat is often the best promotion. When I use dedicated mounted attacks (just mounted units and spies) combat is obviously one of the better promos - mounted gets nothing special vs archers outside of first strike immunity, meaning that the combat line is superior all the way. By nursing top attacks just a LITTLE bit (as in, I won't attack with them unless they're 70+% odds) I actually wind up with combat IV and V mounted units quite often when doing this - they start well promoted anyway and with spies dropping defense they actually have pretty solid odds - eventually a unit emerges with like combat V and a combat V knight has amazing odds after you damage the top defender a bit - this drastically reduces losses.

Also, after giving a unit a counter promotion, what else would you give it? Combat. You want it to have as high of odds as possible, unless your odds are already really strong. Then you'd want drill. If the unit gets drill.

Once again, after promoting a couple of units for stack defense it's usually best to hold promos until attacking, but I didn't think anyone actually ignored the combat line! If anything it's probably drill and guerrilla that get underused the most.

 

[Yesod]

You know I never thought about how a damaged unit would make CR even less effective. I guess that just adds to the strength of combat though. Alot of times youll be able to get lvl 4 mounted units but only lvl 3 melee. Lets say you're fighting a medevial war. D you use knights? Or macemen? In terms of attacking longbows the knight with combat III will gain a bonus of 3 (1.3 x 10), not to mention invulnerability to first strikes. The maceman with CR II will gain a bonus of 2.7 (6 x .45) This is because, as was mentioned before, the CR I and II bonuses subtract from the defender's pitiful base strength. The fact that they're probably wounded should throw the numbers out the water. The same should hold for elephants/axemen, but if you use axes when elephants are available, then your in your own little world.

On the same unit (say a maceman), its a different story, although the wounded concept might change this as well if its true. A maceman would gain the same 2.7 from CRII while the combat II would gain 1.6. Moving to lvl 4 units would change this to 4.5 and 2.4, respectively.

Can anybody confirm that CRII deducts from a wounded defender's lowered base strength?

 

[Yesod]

If anything it's probably drill and guerrilla that get underused the most.

I'm interested in what you've managed to do with guerilla. I've never used that even once.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm interested in what you've managed to do with guerilla. I've never used that even once.

When you wait to promote all but a very few of your units (you have to promote some so you don't get jumped w/o promos), you get some interesting things happening .

For example, it's not uncommon for me to take archers or later on longbows (usually xbows in that time) with my stack for garrison purposes. Guerrilla has 2 roles here - ridiculous stack defense in hills (and this IS significant sometimes) and that it's actually a superior promotion to city garrison when on a hill, for every level of the promotion...!

Aside from that uses are limited but if you happen to win up with a Guerrilla III unit (or you're the celts and almost all your early stuff can get it easily), you can take advantage of the 50% withdrawals too. This can occasionally make your xbow or longbow the most likely attacker to survive.

It's also good when the AI stack is in your territory, as the AI loves to park itself on hills near your cities to siege you or whatever. Guerrilla is more versatile than CG in this regard, as it can make doing that pretty costly to the AI.

Now, of course I use it pretty rarely when compared to other promotions, but it DOES have its uses, although I don't see them from a lot of other players.

 

[Belisar]

I'm interested in what you've managed to do with guerilla. I've never used that even once.

When you march your stack in enemy territory, you try to use defensively favorable ground wherever possible.
In the first stage of the game this this mostly forrests or jungle (and even better forrests/jungles on hills) but later in the game, when most of them are cleared, you stay on high ground as much as possible.
Therefore, as TMIT said, guerilla-II stack defenders are very valuable.

 

[r_rolo1]

Now, of course I use it pretty rarely when compared to other promotions, but it DOES have its uses, although I don't see them from a lot of other players.

Someone should check the SG area now or then

There is a benefit of Guerrilla III that people consistently forget:
That units with it gain a bonus in attacking hills. Given the AI BtS policy on settling in hills , this is a effective CR promo in a lot of cases., in cluding units that normally can't get CR promos... Not mentioning the crazy stuff you can get with Boudica ( non-GG Combat I CR III, Guerrilla III , Cover G. Warriors ), this makes x-bows very effective city attackers and also is very effective with grens .....

 

[Yesod]

I suppose its something to remember when giving out spot promotions, I never really looked past Geurilla I to even see what II and II do.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Someone should check the SG area now or then

There is a benefit of Guerrilla III that people consistently forget:
That units with it gain a bonus in attacking hills. Given the AI BtS policy on settling in hills , this is a effective CR promo in a lot of cases., in cluding units that normally can't get CR promos... Not mentioning the crazy stuff you can get with Boudica ( non-GG Combat I CR III, Guerrilla III , Cover G. Warriors ), this makes x-bows very effective city attackers and also is very effective with grens .....

That doesn't represent a LOT of other players now, does it .

For example, I've yet to encounter a player who used it online on gamespy, and rarely see it here...I think that constitutes "not a lot" .