RFC Classical World

[Cetrix]

Yes I strongly agree we need a subforum.

@srpt : did you had time to check my savegame ?

And for the west "barbarian" civs, this is good.

But for Visigoths you may add south gaul to the conquest/hold UHV. For the UB, maybe something in relation with culture (Visigothic Arts and architecture is famous). As UP... well, maybe a bonus versus barbarian units, like no XP limit ? They fought barbarians for Rome, and later they fought Suebi. But it needs challenging barb spawns.
Human visigoth may start 2 tiles E, then 3 tiles south of Burdigala at the spot of Tolosa. Flip Burdigala (and around Barcelona ?). The starting challenge should be conquer Hispania and hold it versus barbarians, then do the UHV.
As AI, set the capital to Toledo few turns after the spawn, like Seleucids for Antioch, to make room for franks. And it could be a UHV.

So... an example :

Visigoths, start at Tolosa in 418 (with few units, Pontus-like growing civ ?).
1) Build a palace in Toledo and control Hispania by 500 (or earlier, but not that historical).
2) Discover Jurisprudence before other western barbarian civilizations and have 50 piety and 20 stability by 650.
3) Control Hispania, South Gaul, Italy and Western North Africa in 750ish.
UP : The power of foedus (fight bonus versus barbarians and XP limit extended, friendly relation with Western Rome (start as vassal may be fun))
UB : Visigothic church (Christian church)
UU : ?

This sounds fair to me, this way you cover all aspects of this civilization. The foedus, conquer Hispania, make the civ stable and religious, fight back Justinian and Muslims.

 

[srpt]

thats a great idea for a wonder. I think I saw it in one of those "Terry Jones' Barbarians" documentaries. what should its effect be? I guess it should require machinery as well as astronomy.

I think the university is this mod's lyceum. there's also the various academies, one for each religion. I will think about it, there is probably a more elegant way to set it up.

there is a readme file in the mod and in the 3rd post of this thread. there is some stuff that should be added to it though so I'll try to get it more up to date tonight.

no I haven't had time to look at the crash save but I will tonight.

late game boats are a mess yes. I will get to it.

no I don't like tribal villages. they are either annoying, trivial or unbalancing imo. what I did like was the civ iii tribal villages that spat barbs at you til you took them out. I thought that was a good mechanic, worth figuring out how to implement when I have time, but scripted barb spawns work fine for now.

if slaves can rush buildings in foreign cities then I guess great engineers can too. what if your vassal was being attacked and you wanted to help rush his walls? nothing wrong with that is there?

I still want to include Ghana, the Garmantes and Kanem-Bournu if the dll will run with that many civs. I know there is controversy about how early Ghana or Kanem could be called civs, but I'm willing to stretch that.

and yes I guess a sub-forum would be great if interest stays this high but I'm sure the mods are aware of traffic and have a rule they go by.

 

[Tigranes]

I don't want to pile too much on your plate, but Slaves can rush in any city -- not just your vassal's. This can also be an exploit for someone to learn what others are building, mouse over info helps you without need for espionage.

BTS code is big and some things are still there to be discovered. Great Engineers cannot rush other civs buildings, perhaps the code specifically bans them from it, but never made any arrangements for Slaves in some future mod

I disagree about Goody Huts, they add extra layer of unpredictability and fun. Imagine some civ pops a valuable tech, and AI generally likes to explore. But this is your mod, I wont continue in that direction. All I am saying is that exploring should be more fun! After all, 4X Games stands for explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate

 

[Cetrix]

I agree with srpt for the goody huts. Or maybe a mix : it spawns barbarians, and if you take it you can earn some gold.

 

[CrossRFC]

Ghana (or something?) was part of the plan originally... I'm guessing it might be put in after we integrate the European "barbarian" civs and get balance to work up to 700 AD ish.

Ostrogoth's UP should not be a diplo bonus because Pontus has done that already.

Ostrogoth's land area conquest goal should also cover Sicily.
The friendly relations goal has the right idea, since one can force friendly relations with vassalage, and subjugate/be friendly with Byz, Visigoths and either Franks or Vandals.
Palace/mausoleum goal is solid.

Ostrogoth UP: tolerant heresy (+1 from Christianity without a state religion), maybe?

Visigothic UHV1 is a little outdated, and be can easily won by simply staying in Visigothic lands.
Visigothic UP: resettlement? +1 food and +1 hammer from cottages or hamlets/towns etc.

They founded the only new cities in western Europe from the fall of the Roman Empire until the rise of the Carolingians. Many Visigothic names and surnames are still in use in modern Spanish and Portuguese.

Lombard UP: ...no clue

edit: Barbarian huts à la civ III or V that spawn barbs until you kill the hut and get some gold sounds interesting. It would give a little depth to the "mysteriously empty" Germany and Eastern Europe. Scripted barbs should always be a thing, whereas huts would spawn a more manageable amount of barbs that the AI can handle.

 

[Tigranes]

The aristocracy itself was poorer, more urbanised, and less landed than elsewhere. Aside from the richest and most powerful of the dukes and the king himself, Lombard noblemen tended to live in cities (unlike their Frankish counterparts). The aristocracy by the 8th century was highly dependent on the king for means of income related especially to judicial duties: many Lombard nobles are referred to in contemporary documents as iudices (judges) even when their offices had important military and legislative functions as well.

I suggest Urbanized Nobility UP -- free Tax Collector in every city. Later in history Lombards were associated with Banking, which makes this UP even more fitting.


While Visigoths were sometimes called forest people, Ostrogoth were called steppe people. I suggest for both similar UPs, providing former with mobility bonus in Forests and later mobility bonus in plains.

 

[srpt]

it seems you can rush other civs buildings with a great engineer. I just did it. yes that's possible to exploit and its odd firaxis didn't fix it. some time I'll have a go at it.

one thing about the tax collector: although I think its a really good piece of flavor for the period I worry about the AI. it loves at assign them even when it results in angry citizens and thats bad for stability in this mod.

btw the reason Ghana has languished in non-existence all this time is because I was worried about the 50 civ limit and thought I was going to have to choose between them and one of the western empire barbarian civs. however, if I understand edead's posts on the subject correctly we can go to 52 at least, maybe more if we do some tricks with the non-playable civs, so I think everything can be made to fit. I'm dying for some new archaeological discovery showing Ghana, Kanem and the Garmantes all alive and trading with each other in 400AD. there's a great legend about Kanem being founded by refugees from Assyria in 600BC but it has no support.

 

[CrossRFC]

The Kanem Empire (ca. 700 - 1376)
[...]
One theory proposes that the lost state of Agisymba (mentioned by Ptolemy in the middle of the 2nd century AD) was the antecedent of the Kanem Empire.

and

Spoiler :

Complex societies had existed in the region since about 1500 BCE, and around Ghana's core region since about 300 CE.

They [Garamantes] were a local power in the Sahara between 500 BC and 700 AD.

Eeeeehhh...justifiable, ish?

Kanem 200 AD-ish
Ghana 300 AD-ish
Garmantes 320 BC ?? 100 BC ??

Edit: Yes, the AI city manager LOVES to use tax collectors.

Edit2: There is a problem with the Japanese tech goal: paper (and its immediate prereqs) and some cavalry techs haven't been discovered by Japan's neighbours before 400 AD. This makes the actual target techs quite lengthy to research, which is why imho the goal is impossible to do within 75 turns of spawn. I had Japan developed and improved to the best of my ability, and it was still something like 100 turns for paper alone!

 

[srpt]

the Chinese should have both Paper and Steel Working when Japan spawns. that would be the Jin. they probably need better starting techs and the AI should be coded to go for those techs.

Cetrix's save is very weird. you can't remove the Romans from the map. if you try in WB you get an unidentifiable C++ exception when you try to remove the last city, although the population goes to zero and the palace disappears but the star for the capital stays there. if you reduce them to 1 defenseless city in WB and then destroy them in game it crashes. if you save the game in WB and text-edit out the Romans the resulting file won't load...

 

[CrossRFC]

220 AD Kushans: too many marksmen. Suggest replacement with their UU. Guptan elephants will be useful against them, as will the Sassanid cataphract. This might solve the 220 "Kushan issue".

Edit: perhaps only change the western, extra-India part of the Kushans. The Kushans inside India have to deal with barb spawns anyhow, so it's fine on the Gupta's end. It's more the Sassanid AI that struggles with capturing the region.

 

[Lansa]

Did u ever try Japan ? Their Goal is impossible^^
Even with 6 cities (4 in japan and 2 in korea) in the end i cant research paper and the sirrup in time. And i met the whole world with my ship and spy^^ My best trading partner was the Gupta in India^^

 

[srpt]

I removed some Marksmen from the Kushan cities in 220AD

I will change the starting techs of Japan and the other nearby civs so the goal is possible. later east Asia has never gotten much attention but I will look at it tonight. how close did you get? were the Japanese city sites ok? what happened with the 3 kingdoms in China?

 

[Lansa]

The Japanes city sites are okay.
The 3 kingdoms in China lived the most time in peace to eachother. I see no great wars or that somebody conquer some other city.
I needed for win a bit education, paper AND cavalry tactics and the sirrup.
Is their a trigger, when the Japanes UP works? > If i discover "horsemanship" and nobody of my known neighbors had the next tech " selective breeding" i get no UP boost. But what happen, if i later meet the Sassanides, which have this next tech ?

 

[Cetrix]

Cetrix's save is very weird. you can't remove the Romans from the map. if you try in WB you get an unidentifiable C++ exception when you try to remove the last city, although the population goes to zero and the palace disappears but the star for the capital stays there. if you reduce them to 1 defenseless city in WB and then destroy them in game it crashes. if you save the game in WB and text-edit out the Romans the resulting file won't load...

Ok... first time it happens to me. I hope it will be the last time.

 

[CrossRFC]

Japan's land is good (or good enough, of course there are better cities such as Seleukeia or Roma), but there simply wasn't the time to get even close to goal completion for UHV2.

 

[srpt]

Japan's UP power is only supposed to apply to the Chinese and Korean civs and I think I tested it when I made it but that was a long time ago. its easy to test though, just give the techs to the other civs and see if your cost changes. as I said, the starting techs and research preferences of the Chinese and Korean civs need to be correct for the idea to work. that being said, this is one goal I'd like to balance at the harder end of the scale.

 

[Mr.Kwast]

I have a few little ideas about new civ in this mod:

The Western Roman Empire
start in the same date of the Eastern Roman Empire (the Byzantines)
Leaderhead: Flavius Honorius
UP: The power of the Foederati, you can recruit foederati units: They is Foederati Warband(a type of Levy), Foederati Comitatenses( a type of swordsman wich start with dicipline promotion) and foederati nobles( a type of a lancer wich start with leadership or morale), the diferent of the other units is which this foederati units are 2 points exept the nobles more weak than a normal version and they are recruited with food resource and have a lessa upkeep, the foederati warband are free of maintence, The foederati Comitatenses have half of the upkeep and the nobles have half and consume gold like a mercenaries.
UU: Legio Palatinae a type of elite swordman start with dicipline, morale and leadership promotion, and they have a great maintence.(why a dot say replace the swordman, because i tink is good for they have the standart swordman for represetating Comitatense).
UB: Basilicae a type of courthouse with give a extra trade route.

UHV:
1° Choose one of this 3 religions: The Helenism, the Zooroatrism (represetating the mitraism) and the cristianism, become a saint for this religion and allow they are at least in all of your cities.
2°Control all historical size of the Western roman empire in 500 AD.
3°Control the Germania Magna, (Caledonia)scotland, Hibernia(Ireland), Gaetulia and Phazania in 600AD.


Domain of Soissons
Leaderhead: Aegydius
UPower of the Magister Equitium per Gallias, you start with a "legion" and a general( The Sygarius) with good promotions like discipline and morale.
UU: Numerus Legionis Gallic replace a swordman.
UB: Dux Castrum replace a barracks give a extra XP and give -10%maintence
UHVS:
1°Control all Gallia, Belgicae, Germania superior and inferior and Italia in 475.
2°Control all Western roman empire size and build a palace and a mint in Rome in 600 AD.
3°Have at least 3 gold ages.

At all, forgive my bad,bad,bad english, and thanks!

 

[Tigranes]

Guys, is it only me who feels that Normal game speed is actually more like an Epic in this mod? I mean it takes ages to build anything, not just for humans, for AI as well. Sassanid capital has two buildings inside and it is like 308 AD. They were building that petty Settler for how many turns now? Feels like 20. I gave Armenians Edessa -- it took them maybe half a century to get a single defender there. Their entire civ has 6-7 units perhaps. On the one side yields are nerfed, on the other side building/unit costs are high. Building a Blacksmith feels like building Early World Wonder in vanila BTS.

 

[srpt]

I think AI production could be increased and maybe Blacksmiths are a bit expensive. I think 20 turns for a settler is fine though.

and yes it is basically epic speed, thats on purpose. some important starting civs like the Qin, Mauryans and Seleucids need that time to get their UHVs before the next wave (Han, Satavahana, Bactria).

I will increase AI production by 20%. lets see how that goes.

 

[DC123456789]

I don't know why you didn't get a popup as Kalinka when the Satavahanas spawned. I will try to play them soon.

Have you got around to this yet?