RFC Classical World

[CrossRFC]

AD 550
Add Great Library to Alexandria

But in all seriousness, the Library would have been somewhere between partially and completely destroyed by then.

[AD 550]
Add Trajan's Column to Roma

I don't think the column, while still standing, would have been relevant in 550 AD, which in a way negates its bonus. It'd be like having the Iron Pillar wonder in British India: yes, it's still there, but the achievement it represents is long gone.

Add city in Cyprus (south in reach of seafood), make it Byzantine
Add city in Sardinia make it Byzantine
Add city in Corsica (north in reach of seafood) make it Visigoth
Add city on Baleares (call it Palma), make it Vandal
Add food resource to Crete (Cow) on the east tile
Add seafood resource to Crete (clam) north of Knossos
Add City (call it Gortys) to Crete (in the middle tile) make it Byzantine

Having all of these cities at the same time might be a somewhat excessive. This is most true for 320 BC, and gets less excessive as time goes on (550 AD, maybe half of that could be done).

Cyprus could indeed use a food resource because it is a terrible location at the moment.

320 BC start
Add Statue of Zeus to Athens

Civs will have to spent a Great Prophet to get their shrines, or else what's the point of that great person besides golden ages?


Also, as a general rule, Corsica is useless and should not be settled, in favour of Liguria and Sardinia (more on that). If there's a city in that area, it'd be in Sardinia, and even at that it's not the greatest city ever and should only really be in the 550 AD start, at best.

The problem with island cities is they drive up maintenance, are usually poor cities, and the AI gets little value out of them militarily because Civ IV AI is terrible on islands. Thus, giving them to the AI actually hurts them. In the case of the human player, if he wants to settle the islands, he can go ahead and build settlers to found cities there, especially since settler costs have been dramatically decreased compared to what they used to be (hint: prohibitively expensive).

----

Speaking of island cities, the AI Arabs need some way to be more active on the Mediterranean and taking some of those islands. As usual, I don't think we can trust the AI to perform at sea on its own without some help

Oh, and the heresies would be very useful, especially Arianism. Without Arianism, we're missing the main point of religious tension with the barbarian invaders! It could also lead to some fun stuff where the Franks might convert to either sect of Christianity (as they could have in actual history).

Monophysitism would be helpful in assisting the Arabs take the Levant and Egypt from the Byzantines, since that heresy was a contributing factor in losing the provinces, which didn't have as much of a problem with Islam because of the antagonism of Constantinople towards heresy. It would also help balance the "negatives" of Shia in terms of Arab performance (see below).

Shi'ite Islam was "more prominent" in factions such as the Fatamids and a number of Turkish/Persian/Mongol kingdoms, all of which happens at a later date; also, it divides Islam when that religion/Arab civ needs all the help it can get reaching its historical borders. It could be included in the mod, I just wouldn't prioritize it over Arianism and Monophysitism.

 

[DrZomboss]

The Dacian error (80BC scenario) - they start like this

 

[DC123456789]

The Arabia province should be named "Arabia Deserta" to contrast with Arabia Felix.

Also, redid the city name map in Arabia and expanded it somewhat in Axum, with Greek, Latin, Arabic, even a Chinese name. Note that the Sabean capital is now named Azal (ancient Sana'a; it's closer to the coast and was also a major centre- I can't find which city is actually its capital).

 

[Rod]

Knossos was well abandoned by then, perhaps another city will do it! Though I don't think Crete was ever Egyptian :s

I actually got this information out of the wikipedia entry for Knossos. However it is only written in the German version. The English entry stops at 1100 BC (when the palace got abandoned) and continues at 900 AD when the population of Knossos shifted to a city called Chandax , modern Heraklion. So it totally omits the 2000 years in between, except for implicitly stating that Knossos obviously was still populated (or repopulated) until 900 AD.

The German entry is more exhaustive. Saying that generally Crete was split in many small city states during most of the Classical Age, but that Knossos was allied with the Macedonia and even got attacked by Sparta, while the Macedonians waged war in Greece. Eventually it became part of Ptolemaeus' realm in 323 BC.
In 150 BC the Romans made it the first capital of the Roman province Crete and Cyrene at least until it eventually got replaced by Gortys as capital in 67 BC.

Not so bad for an "abandoned city" ..

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos

 

[Rod]

550 AD Great Library.

But in all seriousness, the Library would have been somewhere between partially and completely destroyed by then.

Well, as I understood it, only the Muslim Arabians burned it down after the conquest of Alexandria, so something obviously must have still been functional and impressive enough to instill the anger of the prophet's followers.

Gamewise it is like this that Alexandria in 550 AD is only a shadow of its former self anyway. So it is way to small to use the scholar slot for example. So only if the civilization holding Alexandria would administer the city properly the Great Library could become functional again. Hence I dont see why you shouldnt have the Great Library in Alexandria in 550 AD even though at the beginning it would be just a sightseeing building adding a small cultural boost.

Trajan's Column in Roma 550 AD

I don't think the column, while still standing, would have been relevant in 550 AD, which in a way negates its bonus. It'd be like having the Iron Pillar wonder in British India: yes, it's still there, but the achievement it represents is long gone.

History has shown over and over again that rulers always aim at legitimizing their own rule by referring to older powers if these are not too obscure. Even as long as the 15th century the Russians still referred to the Ancient Roman Empire when they declared Moskva to be the third Rome (in the meaning of the Christian Rome though). Hence if the civs holding Roma could have managed to rebuild the city in real history within those centuries then the rulers might also have restored the Column, reinterpret it in a Christian sense, and then would have benefit from it.

It is the same as in Rhodes where they kept the ruins of the Colossus for centuries until they got sold only by the Arabian conquerors to a Jewish merchant in Edessa.

Why? Because only the Arabs had real ideological reasons to distinguish themselves from the former powers. The same as the British in India. Hence for the British rule the Iron Pillar was defunct, likewise for the Mughals. But if India would have had a Hindu Emperor during those ages things might have been different.

 

[CrossRFC]

So... if they want to "restore" it... they would have to "build" it, representing the efforts of state in that regard.

 

[DrZomboss]

Make Pelousion Seyan for Persia, also Antiocheia --> Antiyokhya for Persia

 

[Rod]

So... if they want to "restore" it... they would have to "build" it, representing the efforts of state in that regard.

Yeah but in this case it might happen that not the civ holding Alexandria or Roma would "rebuild" these wonders, but maybe some obscure East Asian city, who wouldn't have ever heard about Trajan.
A wonder not built is open to everyone.

On the other hand an effort of the new state could also be to allocate a scholar to the reopened library , representing funding for the academia out of the state treasure. Please don't overestimate the power of decay. If not deliberately burnt down such large structures can sustain for millenia. Think about the Colosseum or the Pyramids or the Acropolis.
Case in point the Church of Nativity which endured and was maintained for more than a millennium of Non-Christian rule. Even today there are no Christians in charge of Bethlehem.

The Great library was built in Alexandria, it was well maintained for centuries and it was functional till the Arabian invasion. Hence in 550 AD there should exist a Great Library in Alexandria.
Heck, without the birth of the overzealous commander who decided to destroy it there would probably still be a Great Library even in modern Alexandria. The same as in Timbuktu/Mali.
A library is not a shrine or a monument or a temple. It has use to any power in charge.

When the Arabs conquer Alexandria then you could have an automatic event destroying the library .. and maybe having some ill diplomatic effect in relations with the Western civilizations. ("We condemn your past acts of utter barbarism.")

Trajan's Column is a little different story due to its extreme effect, but maybe you can simply make its effect obsolete with some technology the Germanic invaders possess from the start. In this case only the cultural boost would persist.

 

[Rod]

Having all of these cities [referring to the 5 suggested island cities (Cyprus, Crete, Sardinia, Corsica, Baleares) in the Mediterranean] at the same time might be a somewhat excessive. This is most true for 320 BC, and gets less excessive as time goes on (550 AD, maybe half of that could be done).

Cyprus could indeed use a food resource because it is a terrible location at the moment.
Also, as a general rule, Corsica is useless and should not be settled, in favour of Liguria and Sardinia (more on that). If there's a city in that area, it'd be in Sardinia, and even at that it's not the greatest city ever and should only really be in the 550 AD start, at best.

The problem with island cities is they drive up maintenance, are usually poor cities, and the AI gets little value out of them militarily because Civ IV AI is terrible on islands. Thus, giving them to the AI actually hurts them. In the case of the human player, if he wants to settle the islands, he can go ahead and build settlers to found cities there, especially since settler costs have been dramatically decreased compared to what they used to be (hint: prohibitively expensive).

Cyprus WAS an important producer of copper during the entire Classical age as mentioned in several sources.
Knossos on Crete WAS the first European city EVER and was still populated during the Classic Age.
Sardinia WAS a core province of the Roman empire, providing huge amounts of grain to the capital itself.
In the same way as Syracuse and Rhodes rightfully exist in the mod, so these places above have historic significance as well, high maintenance or not.

Moreover all the islands always acted as important refugee havens for people who had to flee the mainlands. Best documented case: Venice, which was founded by people from Aquilea when the Huns first threatened and finally razed Aquilea - there is even a hill in Udine/Italy from where Attila supposedly watched and enjoyed the fires of Aquilea. Therefore all the Mediterranean islands where continuously inhabited and often settled much earlier than other places simply because they were safer.

I interpret this mod not just as a game but also as a flavourful depiction of that age.
Meaning, game mechanics are highly important for this mod, but not on the expense of flavour, if it can be avoided.
To be honest, I think this is also the unique strength of this mod that it has the classic flavour and not just the Rhye's mechanics. If I want the mechanics only then I'd rather play the original.
But with this mod you can see and highly appreciate the huge efforts that went into details of flavour.

So if you take the Roman empire and raze Celtic or Carthaginian settlements left,right and center in order to fill the ever demanding slave markets of the eternal city then it FEELS Roman.
If you take the Ptolemaic kingdom and erect the Great Lighthouse and the Great Library .. after razing Nubian and Carthaginian settlements right, left and center .. then it FEELS Egyptian.
If you take the Franks and erect the first Cathedral in Aachen then it .. I think you get my point ...

So I truly believe Sardinia, Cyprus and Crete should be represented and except for Crete the current configurations of these islands are not that poor.
If the human player is too offended by these not perfect city spots then maybe simply reward them for such non-optimized but historical behaviour and make these island significant for the UHV.

E.g. Crete, Rhodes and Cyprus are all East Mediterranean port cities and hence count for the Ptolemaic UHV.
You could also make each island a province and hence let them count toward the Roman goal etc.

 

[srpt]

nice to see all the spirited discussion. there will be a new commit later today. I will add at least some of those island cities. I've also changed the Saka and Numidian spawns so that they attack provinces in a semi-random order at semi-random dates.

the Bactrian 3 Indian provinces goal will be a "by" so they get the chance to do it before the Sakas arrive.

and Gaul will be food-nerfed further

@ DrZomboss: I don't get that error. are you using the svn or the regular download?

 

[CrossRFC]

Cyprus WAS an important producer of copper during the entire Classical age as mentioned in several sources.
Knossos on Crete WAS the first European city EVER and was still populated during the Classic Age.
Sardinia WAS a core province of the Roman empire, providing huge amounts of grain to the capital itself.
In the same way as Syracuse and Rhodes rightfully exist in the mod, so these places above have historic significance as well, high maintenance or not.

Moreover all the islands always acted as important refugee havens for people who had to flee the mainlands. Best documented case: Venice, which was founded by people from Aquilea when the Huns first threatened and finally razed Aquilea - there is even a hill in Udine/Italy from where Attila supposedly watched and enjoyed the fires of Aquilea. Therefore all the Mediterranean islands where continuously inhabited and often settled much earlier than other places simply because they were safer.

I interpret this mod not just as a game but also as a flavourful depiction of that age.
Meaning, game mechanics are highly important for this mod, but not on the expense of flavour, if it can be avoided.
To be honest, I think this is also the unique strength of this mod that it has the classic flavour and not just the Rhye's mechanics. If I want the mechanics only then I'd rather play the original.
But with this mod you can see and highly appreciate the huge efforts that went into details of flavour.

So if you take the Roman empire and raze Celtic or Carthaginian settlements left,right and center in order to fill the ever demanding slave markets of the eternal city then it FEELS Roman.
If you take the Ptolemaic kingdom and erect the Great Lighthouse and the Great Library .. after razing Nubian and Carthaginian settlements right, left and center .. then it FEELS Egyptian.
If you take the Franks and erect the first Cathedral in Aachen then it .. I think you get my point ...

So I truly believe Sardinia, Cyprus and Crete should be represented and except for Crete the current configurations of these islands are not that poor.
If the human player is too offended by these not perfect city spots then maybe simply reward them for such non-optimized but historical behaviour and make these island significant for the UHV.

E.g. Crete, Rhodes and Cyprus are all East Mediterranean port cities and hence count for the Ptolemaic UHV.
You could also make each island a province and hence let them count toward the Roman goal etc.

If you want to go do all that, go do it. Nothing is preventing you from allocating your resources away from other things for sake of flavour. Don't force everyone else do it your way simply because you like it best. The more things are preset, the less player choice goes into playing, which is as a rule not advisable in an open-ended game. Usually preset events and locations exist for the purpose of balance (and historically accurate when history and balance meet, such as many of 320 BC's pre-placed wonders), and none of your suggestions contribute to balance in any significant way. If the mod was Mediterranean-only, there would probably be room for every significant city in the area, but this covers the whole of Eurasia, so sacrifices have to be made.

Also, if the Chinese want to build Trajan's column, they can go right ahead! It's not about what the name or historical location of the wonder, it's about what the wonder represents. Even if you built it as Rome, odds are it won't be in Trajan's time, so to limiting wonders to exact historical determinism is a bit silly.

the Bactrian 3 Indian provinces goal will be a "by" so they get the chance to do it before the Sakas arrive.

Hallelujah!

Also srpt, not to nag, but you still haven't fixed the deer food bonus

 

[Rod]

If you want to go do all that, go do it. Nothing is preventing you from allocating your resources away from other things for sake of flavour. Don't force everyone else do it your way simply because you like it best. The more things are preset, the less player choice goes into playing, which is as a rule not advisable in an open-ended game. Usually preset events and locations exist for the purpose of balance, and none of your suggestions contribute to balance in any significant way. If the mod was Mediterranean-only, there would probably be room for every significant city in the area, but this covers the whole of Eurasia, so sacrifices have to be made.

Also, if the Chinese want to build Trajan's column, they can go right ahead! It's not about what the name or historical location of the wonder, it's about what the wonder represents. Even if you built it as Rome, odds are it won't be in Trajan's time, so to limiting wonders to exact historical determinism is a bit silly.

Naturally I did it already, that is how I came up with the list in the first place. (its just editing the map files). Obviously I did not break the game with my changes and Rome is not bankrupted by having cities on island. So we are not sacrificing things in favour of flavour.

But this it is not about my personal preferences, its about my arguments in favour of my ideas. I am not forcing my opinion, I am suggesting changes and I am laying out my reasoning for these changes. Please tell me where am I wrong when I am talking about additions to historic flavour (which may appeal to other users as well) instead of arguing ad hominem.

See, if this mod would be about alternate history only then I would not argue about anything (because actually I wouldn't play it). But the initial concept seemed to put lot of emphasis (and efforts) in encouraging historical behaviour by the AI and letting even open gameplay still lead to somewhat accurate historical events. That is why I got involved. A mod that is about alternate history only would use generic names for everything and not have a "Trajan's Column" or a "Theodosian wall".

Last but not least I focus on historic flavour in the Mediterranean, because out of the many possible contributions to this mod this is the area I know best. Other users are more competent in providing input about balance or the history of Central Asia or East Asia. I don't see any issue with me arguing about things I know about.

 

[srpt]

I'm also moving the gold near Kabul to 1 tile south of the city so it can be worked right way when the city is founded.

edit: commit is up, no new cities yet but better Saka and Numidia spawns and some fixes and terrain changes

 

[DC123456789]

The Arabia province should be named "Arabia Deserta" to contrast with Arabia Felix.

Also, redid the city name map in Arabia and expanded it somewhat in Axum, with Greek, Latin, Arabic, even a Chinese name. Note that the Sabean capital is now named Azal (ancient Sana'a; it's closer to the coast and was also a major centre- I can't find which city is actually its capital).

Bump.

 

[srpt]

you city name map additions were added when you posted them. still thinking about Arabia Deserta.

 

[Sitalkas]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_the_Third_Century

This looks like an interesting event, that could lead to the western Roman collapse and prepare the ground for the Byzantine spawn !

 

[DrZomboss]

Spoiler :

Looks like a better map for Sassies

 

[srpt]

thats a great map. thanks!

I have the naval logistics idea working, including the map to disallow jumping to an unconnected body of water, and including special cases for Pelusion and Byzantion. I will commit it later today.

I want to also set it up so that units can be shipped through Pelusion and Byzantion as well as in and out of them, and I have a weird idea to make that work.

 

[Tigranes]

I am sorry -- did you guys change SVN feed again? Which is the last revision -- 78?


Never mind, just discovered that you did... It takes whole night to re-download the initial repository with the turtle. The first page has the most updated link?

 

[srpt]

I had to move the mod to a different host.

unfortunately so far the AI is not using the airlift of paradrop features.