RFC Classical World

[Cetrix]

Alaric is the leader of the Visigoths, but he died in 410. The Visigoth spawn is in 420, better to make Theodoric as leader.

Did a 220AD Visigoth game, in Emperor. My feedback :
- 1st goal, get Jurisprudence before 650AD. Way too easy ; I had it in 540AD.
- 2nd goal, the conquest. Quite easy, but good action with wars against Ostrogoths, Franks, Lombards, Vandals. To be honest, I didn't wait for 700AD. I guess that there is no arabic invasion event.
- 3rd goal, be stable, have 5000 culture and be a saint. Too easy, by far ! And there is a bug, at 2000/5000 culture the checkmark is green.

Why are there all around easy goals ? You start in 420, and the goals are in 650, 700, 750. It's a lot of turns and we have by far enough time to do it :
- Jurisprudence. You only have to research the technology before it, and I had it with trade. Even without library in cities and research buildings you can have it before 650AD. Get it 1 century before is better, or drop out some techs for Visigoths to make it harder. But with trade... easy to do.
- The conquest : the franks are not at war with Visigoths at spawn... in my opinion, they have to. But franks are a major threat after, it's good. Same for lombards, but not the ostrogoth which are weakened by barbarians. Vandals are easily conquered.
A justinian invasion in North Africa (~540 AD) and Betica (?) and South Italy/Sicily would be nice action and more challenging. Same for an arabic invasion around 710.
- And for the last goal, the culture is too much easy. 15000 is a real challenge. Be stable is not a problem, because like I said few days ago, in RFC CW the stability isn't a problem (everybody in solid or stable most of the time). Be a saint is OK.

Despite this, it was a nice game ; the goals are interesting, but not enough challenging.

And some bugs : lack of frankish TXT birth, some mess with Avars/Huns civ color, and bugs with the score (some civs don't have the stability thingy).

 

[DC123456789]

There definitely needs to be Byzantine and Arab conquerors for Africa and Spain.

 

[Tigranes]

I was playing Rome for the past 3 days, it is very addictive. Slaves make everything so cool. My conquest of Gaul (I waited long) resulted in like 20+ slaves, just like in real life. I will provide more feedback later -- but here is the main one: AI needs help against humans in mods.

sprt, we really need some bold actions to help AI. It was not designed to handle mods, it thinks in vanila BTS terms. Hannibal event was the coolest thing and I offer to make it standard. We need AI surge, total mobilization, instant multiplication of troops.

1. Any war between AI and human is a clear emergency and AI civilization can count to have a total mobilization of its citizens. 1 time per Civ's life ANY AI civ who has a war with human player gets a stack similar to Carthage's somewhere close to human player's borders. Stack is lead by the Great General, with the same name as Civ's leader -- let AI to use their free GG and pick promotions based on situations. Hannibal stack should also have GG. This is true for both offensive and defensive war.

2. In addition, in case of the defensive war -- every city of AI civ gets her UU, so declaring on 8 city strong Parthia mean you have to deal with 8 Mounted bowmen AND Arsaces I's Hannibal style counter-strike royal army with Arsaces leading it. And finally attacked civ gets 200 gold to hire someone -- Carthage did not use their UP at all. They had only 1 defender per city and I was able to collapse them by simultaneous attacks before Hannibal army could do any real damage!

P.S. Also Parthian cities do not appear on the map, only inside buildings, look so creepy to see the name Urfa and a Monument in, otherwise, empty tile...

 

[Cetrix]

I strongly agree with our Armenian guy.
This mod will be perfect with some events and help for the AI vs human, AI vs AI.

 

[Sitalkas]

IMO it will not work...

it will be ok for civs like the Romans or the Seleucids that their UU has bonus attacking cities, but think about the Bactrians eg

You declare war to the Sungas to get their cities and they will spawn more UUs? so you will have to kill like 12 archers+ a great general with only 2 hetairoi and a heavy spearman ?

it would only work if the attacking civ had an obvious military advantage - I mean more units - Then an auto draft which will spawn UUs could occur, but only to match the attackers numbers not to surpass them

 

[Swarbs]

And some bugs : lack of frankish TXT birth, some mess with Avars/Huns civ color, and bugs with the score (some civs don't have the stability thingy).

I saw this too. Most notably with Romans - it's damn difficult to play a Roman game without knowing stability as you never know how close you are to civil war!

Also, for the Arabs, I think they don't need such a large stack of marksmen at the start. 12 marksmen spawning at Mecca is just too much, as they would take so long to reach anywhere they were needed and you get plenty of defenders with the Byz flip. It would be better to give the Arabs a few more Ghazis instead imo.

Oh, and the Arab flip is a bit ahistorical - the Arabs conquered Mesopotamia and Syria around the same time, so it seems a bit strange to have just Syria flip but Mesopotamia stay Sassanid. Maybe flip a couple of cities in each region, to show the start of the conquest?

 

[Tigranes]

IMO it will not work...

it will be ok for civs like the Romans or the Seleucids that their UU has bonus attacking cities, but think about the Bactrians eg

You declare war to the Sungas to get their cities and they will spawn more UUs? so you will have to kill like 12 archers+ a great general with only 2 hetairoi and a heavy spearman ?

it would only work if the attacking civ had an obvious military advantage - I mean more units - Then an auto draft which will spawn UUs could occur, but only to match the attackers numbers not to surpass them

Bactria obviously is an exception, it is hard as is. We can use some time-frame, to let human player get established first. Say standard "Hannibal event" after 40 turns from human spawn... Humans use Mercenaries better, they know about they goals (AI does not), humans simply much better at war and they use every trick in the book, like collapsing AI empires. 1 Hannibal event per civ after 40 turns -- is not that big of a deal to offset all those advantages.

I know where to expect Hannibal as Romans and I know his stack. So I just get walls, hire the right units, fortify them and declare the war. But that Elephant killed my defender anyway! Imagine a little help from GG. Concept of royal army led by AI leader adds fun to the game -- "Hannibal has been killed in battle" . Nice try, Carthage!

 

[Tigranes]

I saw this too. Most notably with Romans - it's damn difficult to play a Roman game without knowing stability as you never know how close you are to civil war!

Also, for the Arabs, I think they don't need such a large stack of marksmen at the start. 12 marksmen spawning at Mecca is just too much, as they would take so long to reach anywhere they were needed and you get plenty of defenders with the Byz flip. It would be better to give the Arabs a few more Ghazis instead imo.

Oh, and the Arab flip is a bit ahistorical - the Arabs conquered Mesopotamia and Syria around the same time, so it seems a bit strange to have just Syria flip but Mesopotamia stay Sassanid. Maybe flip a couple of cities in each region, to show the start of the conquest?

I disagree about Arabs. I was so happy about foot soldiers -- some needs to defend all those new cities and also protect Cavalry from Spearman attack. I was so impressed when my stack of Ghazis where met by a well organized stack of 8 Sassanid Heavy Spearman! I was like, what is sprt's phone number, I need to call him and tell about my failed invasion! In my second attempt my army was more realistically diverse and results much better!

I also disagree about the flip. Byzantine part had monophysites who welcomed Arabs, while Persians were seen not as People of the Book, but as Heathen fire-worshiping idolaters. They would not "flip" to such masters "voluntarily".

And sprt was right -- human player does not need free Temples.

 

[Sitalkas]

hmmm... I wonder...

what about making the AI more clever?

like a K-mod, but not the actual K-mod itself! just some pinches of AI improvements

I have studied control engineering, I know some basic AI algorithms but that's for designing systems not programming a game lol!

 

[Swarbs]

I disagree about Arabs. I was so happy about foot soldiers -- some needs to defend all those new cities and also protect Cavalry from Spearman attack. I was so impressed when my stack of Ghazis where met by a well organized stack of 8 Sassanid Heavy Spearman! I was like, what is sprt's phone number, I need to call him and tell about my failed invasion! In my second attempt my army was more realistically diverse and results much better!

That's true. Perhaps a better solution would be to have the initial Arab stack spawn closer to Syria and Mesopotamia, so they don't spend so long moving through the desert. That would also be more realistic, as they would be near the cities when they flip.

I also disagree about the flip. Byzantine part had monophysites who welcomed Arabs, while Persians were seen not as People of the Book, but as Heathen fire-worshiping idolaters. They would not "flip" to such masters "voluntarily".

Whilst the monophysites and Chalcedon Christians welcomes the Arabs, the Arabs still had to capture all the cities. If anything, the Arab conquest of Persia was more of a flip - after the initial victories in 633 around 12,000 Persian soldiers converted to Islam and joined the Arabs, along with many of the Sassanid nobles. They played a key role in allowing the Arab generals to control most of Iraq and shift the bulk of their forces towards the invasion of Syria. Far fewer Byzantine troops joined the Arabs, and I don't think any Byzantine governors converted during the initial invasion.

Personally, I think Damascus, Babylon and the other southern Sassanid city should flip, thus accurately portraying the initial Arab successes in invading the two regions, and forcing the player to try and complete each conquest, rather than just having Syria handed to them on a plate.

 

[Tigranes]

12,000 Persian soldiers converted to Islam

Can you please lead me to the source? Never knew about this...

But overall I see your point -- we give player an impression that Byzantine lands are given for free while Arabs have to fight for Iranian lands from the scratch.

I suggest the following:

1. Arabs spawn with 2 Settlers and 2 halves of the original initial stack, one for Mecca and one for Basra (city was founded in 636 as an encampment and garrison for Arab tribesmen constituting the armies of the Rashidun Caliph). Initial flips are Yemen, Medina, and new city in Oman. Arabs start with this familiar green base:

2. First stack re-enforced with couple of Camels Riders and Spears will press against Judea and Syria. Cities can go into rebellion for 3 turns to make things easy.

3. Why can't Arabs start with Khalid ibn al Walid? The guy was a phenomenon. Half of the initial Basra stack promoted with him will wrestle Iraq from Sassanids.

Basically human player will prevail regardless of how generous the initial flip is. AI is hopeless, let's just focus on our fun . You start with Arabia and capture the rest.

 

[ianchen]

I have tried so many times trying to finish the first goal of the Qin. (build Terracocca Army and Great Wall by 215 BC)
(Only barely managed to build the first one with like 7 turns left...)
barely started the Great Wall by 230 BC

Went to research Masonary right away (80%-100%research) but still... just finished researching Masonary like 20-- turns before 215 BC?
(got 2 slaves from barbarians...) (sacarfice them to build the Terracocca Army..)

IS there a way to ever beat the first goal? (How?)
(Should I go conquer Kingdom of Gojongson and just raze its cities?)
(Also during the game, I can't find the Tocharistian kingdom?? (don't know why?)

 

[DC123456789]

How did you only get 2 slaves? Just conquering all the cities usually gives 3 or 4, and you often get a lot from killing barbarians. That should be enough to finish both wonders on time. Also, the Tocharians actually spawn much later than the civilopedia says (70-80 years, I think). It's a relic from when they did spawn at that date.

 

[ianchen]

How did you only get 2 slaves? Just conquering all the cities usually gives 3 or 4, and you often get a lot from killing barbarians. That should be enough to finish both wonders on time. Also, the Tocharians actually spawn much later than the civilopedia says (70-80 years, I think). It's a relic from when they did spawn at that date.

Umm... I was playing on Vicreoy? (Just didn't know why I only got 2?) (I've conquered all the cities required around 140BC?)
Destroyed Gojongson 1 city and got 1 worker. Got another worker from Barbarian (and that's all...)
(Destroyed Nan Yue city, a Wu (there's two cities and I decided to pick the one not on the coast...)

 

[Cetrix]

About arabs : the byzantine empire + sassanids kicked them in 5 turns in my Visigoth game. Massive armies. I wonder if nerf the production rate would be a good idea for some civs.

(and by the way, Mesopotamia does not flip to arabs in my game)

[edit]

Ideas for Visigothic UP and UU, UB and UHV revamp
Why UHV ? Because it's too easy. Also, will need to drop "Code of Law" technology to make 2nd UHV harder. Maybe slow down a bit the technology overall speed for the "barbarian" civs (Franks, Visigoths, Lombards...). The problem is that Byzantines or other civ trade "Philosophy" too easily... And then, we only have to research Jurisprudence. Close to 200 turns to do it !

Switch from Alaric to Theodoric for civilization leader. Alaric died before the visigothic spawn year.
[EDIT : Mmh same name as Ostrogoths, forget it.]

Discover Jurisprudence and build Palace and National Epic in Toletum (Toledo) by 650AD
Have at least 70 piety, 15000 culture and be stable in 700AD
Control Spain, North Africa and Italy by 750AD

The Power of Protofeudalism
Starts with Feudalism civic

OR

The Power of the Council of Toledo
Free Christian Wisdom from the start

Visigothic church 105
+2
+1
+1 if christanity is state
Can turn 2 citizens into Priest
+1 from Christian Wisdom

Gothic irregular (Heavy Spearman) 65
Starts with Discipline
5
3
+25% against Mounted units

And Franks have to start at war with Visigoths.
Add Byzantines conquerors in ~540AD : South Spain.
Add Arabic conquerors in ~700AD : North Africa, South Spain.

Why these UHV ?
- Toletum was the visigothic capital since 554AD. Add National Epic too, because only research Jurisprudence is a poor UHV.
- 15000 culture instead of 5000 culture is better, because it was way too easy.
- Last UHV is OK.

Why these UU and UB ?
Visigothic arts were famous, so a Visigothic church (+1 culture from basic church) is nice and it's a synergy which the 2nd UHV.
Gothic irregulars were the foederati troops. Less strong than a basic Heavy Spearman (-1 ) but starts with +1 and Discipline. Good way to fight barbarians, as the foederati troops did.

Why this UP ?
Because of this. Or, a free Christian Wisdom.

Why the conquerors ?
More challenging and historical !

And maybe... : Spain is a too good spot, in my opinion. Costal cities are huge, and Toledo has a lot of

 

[Wessel V1]

I have tried so many times trying to finish the first goal of the Qin. (build Terracocca Army and Great Wall by 215 BC)
(Only barely managed to build the first one with like 7 turns left...)
barely started the Great Wall by 230 BC

Went to research Masonary right away (80%-100%research) but still... just finished researching Masonary like 20-- turns before 215 BC?
(got 2 slaves from barbarians...) (sacarfice them to build the Terracocca Army..)

IS there a way to ever beat the first goal? (How?)
(Should I go conquer Kingdom of Gojongson and just raze its cities?)
(Also during the game, I can't find the Tocharistian kingdom?? (don't know why?)

I did it on Monarch some time ago, but that was on the old map. Once I'm really back into this game I'll give it a shot. Basically, you should use all possible tricks to get research going and then production. For example, spies are very cheap and can contact other civs for open borders. Also (I don't know if that is currently the case) tax collectors used to be a nice boost to science. Slaves are very useful for pre-chopping and hurrying building and to make sure the city is in absolute perfect shape at the time you start building. Still, the old map was very different from the current one and tile yields were decreased massively, which may turn out to be a factor as well.

 

[DrZomboss]

No, seriously, I want the regular download! The svn says me :"Error: REPORT of 'svn/rfc-classical-world/!svn/me' : Could not read chunk size:". Has anyone got such problems (that's the 3rd time I try to download it..)?

 

[DrZomboss]

Playing as Pandya. Founded a city 2 S 2 W of Madurai. It's called MohodayapuriMohodayapuri-1... and I think that is a strange name for a city, isn't it?
Also, Liao-hsi was called "City" and civs collapse very hardly.

 

[Wessel V1]

No, seriously, I want the regular download! The svn says me :"Error: REPORT of 'svn/rfc-classical-world/!svn/me' : Could not read chunk size:". Has anyone got such problems (that's the 3rd time I try to download it..)?

I think you should copy the map to a non-C:/ folder first, for example your 'Downloads' or 'My documents' map. Editing and extracting files in the C:/-folder doesn't work for some reason I probably disagree with. Copy the mod somewhere else, let svn do its job and then copy it back to your mod-folder. Future updates can be downloaded into the C:/-map straight away but the first update has to be done from outside.

 

[Swarbs]

Can you please lead me to the source? Never knew about this...

But overall I see your point -- we give player an impression that Byzantine lands are given for free while Arabs have to fight for Iranian lands from the scratch.

I suggest the following:

1. Arabs spawn with 2 Settlers and 2 halves of the original initial stack, one for Mecca and one for Basra (city was founded in 636 as an encampment and garrison for Arab tribesmen constituting the armies of the Rashidun Caliph). Initial flips are Yemen, Medina, and new city in Oman. Arabs start with this familiar green base:

2. First stack re-enforced with couple of Camels Riders and Spears will press against Judea and Syria. Cities can go into rebellion for 3 turns to make things easy.

3. Why can't Arabs start with Khalid ibn al Walid? The guy was a phenomenon. Half of the initial Basra stack promoted with him will wrestle Iraq from Sassanids.

Basically human player will prevail regardless of how generous the initial flip is. AI is hopeless, let's just focus on our fun . You start with Arabia and capture the rest.

Don't remember the exact source, but there are a great many sources discussing how the Arabs had to fight for every city in Syria, whereas the only one they struggled to capture in Mesopotamia was Ctesiphon, and once that was captured in 637AD the Sassanid Empire essentially lost all control of Iraq. So the Arabs controlled Ctesiphon, Babylon, Basra and Susa before Jerusalem or Antioch.

I like your suggestion, but would modify it slightly:

1. Start with two half stacks, one with a settler and GG (Khalid ibn al Walid) at Basra, one near Damascus.
2. Medina, Himyar, Damascus and Babylon (which becomes Al Hirah which by 630 was much larger than Babylon - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hirah) flip to signify the early Arab successes in each region.
3. Not sure you need a new city in Oman - Muscat wasn't an important city during the early Arab period

I think that approach would give more of a challenge and be more realistic - you'll still have to fight Byzantium in the Levant and will have a base in Mesopotamia for fighting the Sassanids. And you don't have to spend the first seven turns sitting around waiting for your Marksmen to reach Babylon!