RFC Classical World
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DC123456789
Deity
What exactly are you planning for the Scythians? From what I understand they were undergoing decline by the start of the timeline, and for most of the timeframe they were largely limited to the Crimea and the surrounding areas of southern Ukraine (the eastern ones are adequately represented by the Sakas already). Unless you plan to lump them in with the Sarmatians?
I tried a new Tocharian game. I think that they need another UU when they spawn. Xiongnu attack 5-6 turns after you create your first unit.
You can then choose which city you will sacrifice. Having 3 defenders in Kashgar? -> Bye-Bye Khotan! Having 2 units in each city? -> Bye-Bye Kashgar!
Also, was textile factory left out on purpose?
edit! Silk route trading post is not available for the Tocharians, they can build market instead.
You can then choose which city you will sacrifice. Having 3 defenders in Kashgar? -> Bye-Bye Khotan! Having 2 units in each city? -> Bye-Bye Kashgar!
Also, was textile factory left out on purpose?
edit! Silk route trading post is not available for the Tocharians, they can build market instead.
agentxorange
Warlord
Ummmmm, are you sure about that? Xiongnu spawn around 198 BC, that's enough time to build 1 spearman in each city, which means you have 3 defenders in each city, which is more than enough. TBH, Tocharians are on of the most balanced civs for what they are (slow game, mostly diplomacy, trade, slow expansion, etc).
Edit: I just realized you're probably building the bowman first. Don't bother, it's too expensive, spearman get the job done since it's all cavalry attacking anyway.
Yep, I am always going for the bowman, they are always bringing their army from China after you kill their initial stack so bowmen are better!
I know they are balanced, they are one of my top favourite civs in the game! I always start a new game with them to check all the changes in the game. I just feel they were more balanced before the one-year-per-turn addition.
I know they are balanced, they are one of my top favourite civs in the game! I always start a new game with them to check all the changes in the game. I just feel they were more balanced before the one-year-per-turn addition.
agentxorange
Warlord
They're exactly twice as expensive for less than twice the effectiveness however. In the usual Civ IV logic, it's almost always better to spam the cheaper unit and just get them promoted/use them as cannon fodder. You can attack Dunhuang with 4 spearmen relatively soon, 2-3 die in the attack, but with bowmen you need 2 (which you build in the same time) plus another spearman or so.
svn 261
Tyranny no longer has a culture penalty or foreign trade route restriction. instead it has high upkeep and +1 unhappy/city.
Slavery also causes +1 unhappy/city and is medium upkeep
the Tocharian Silk Route is now a market replacement
as for the Tocharian start, try it with spamming spearmen and see how it goes. I don't mind them being a difficult civ. I will try them today as well hopefully.
Tyranny no longer has a culture penalty or foreign trade route restriction. instead it has high upkeep and +1 unhappy/city.
Slavery also causes +1 unhappy/city and is medium upkeep
the Tocharian Silk Route is now a market replacement
as for the Tocharian start, try it with spamming spearmen and see how it goes. I don't mind them being a difficult civ. I will try them today as well hopefully.
I don't attack 
my tactic is to slowly build an army and 2 settlers. When I am ready, I attack and raze Turpan and Dunhuang and I build them In my core. Then my kingdom is slowly becoming an empire. Try and building Turpan 1S of its current position. Its a gem in the desert!
my tactic is to slowly build an army and 2 settlers. When I am ready, I attack and raze Turpan and Dunhuang and I build them In my core. Then my kingdom is slowly becoming an empire. Try and building Turpan 1S of its current position. Its a gem in the desert!
agentxorange
Warlord
Yeah, but you're waiting 30+ turns to sacrifice 1 less unit. Just spam spearmen. They're my go-to defensive (and often offensive) unit since they're only 20H. It's almost always better to get a city fast rather than turtle, you get research, territory, production, culture, GPP, or whatever from a city, while you're stuck with the same crap if you just wait.
Edit: My thought process is that doing the UHVs (or even normal victories) in RFC mods are more like puzzles, unlike in vanilla where it's more a strategy game. There's a lot of trial and error there is a correct way to do things (as well as a wrong way).
Edit: My thought process is that doing the UHVs (or even normal victories) in RFC mods are more like puzzles, unlike in vanilla where it's more a strategy game. There's a lot of trial and error there is a correct way to do things (as well as a wrong way).
DC123456789
Deity
That's great, it makes Tyranny much more competitive (previously I almost never even considered using it).
please be more specific. which spy actions?
I've been playing the mod quite a bit lately, mostly Qin, Han, Tang, Satavahana, Gupta and Parthia, and I've also watched quite a few 320BC Arab start replays and these are my impressions:
overall there is a lot that is really great.
the map is perfect now imo. its my favorite civ map I 've ever played on I think.
the timescale is also perfect and perfect for the map scale. most things in the mod seem to take the right amount of time.
although some of the autoplays are long (180 turns is the longest minimum autoplay to play a civ) the turn times while playing always seem fine, no matter what the era, nowhere near diminishing enjoyment, at least on my pc.
the balance of the major civs is ok. Rome consistently conquers most of the mediterranean. they may need something to ensure they get Egypt because Egypt becomes an unhistorical powerhouse if left alone. Parthia consistently takes down the Seleucids, although they sometimes take their time about it. occasionally the Hebrews go on a tear, but I don't think that can be helped. right now I think the biggest underperformers are in China, as few of them even get to Panyu, let alone Kashgar. the Byzantines can also be uninspiring, but they are at least now consistently alive and controlling most of their historical territory on a 320BC Arab start.
the tech pace seems good. all the tech goals in the UHVs are doable but require focus (possible exception: Japan, the true orphan civ of this mod, I know I need to look at them). no civ seems to run away with tech at any point in the game.
some of the scripted nomad civ spawns are working very well. in the games I've played the Sakas and Xiongnu have done what I wanted: breaking the Magadhan dominance of northern India and helping the Qin go down and preventing the Koreans from taking NE China and thereby getting unhistorically powerful. others may work less well. I don't think the Hephthalites are hurting the Guptas enough
the Christianity split imo finally makes the inclusion of the Arian factions feel right and I'm quite happy with the solution I came up with for the Holy City.
the unit art is 99% perfect. huge credit to Bakuel, ambrox and the HOTK mod.
building art is 75% ok and 25% bad (or more accurately placeholder). I should get to that someday.
leaderheads are also about 75% good 25% not so good. I plan to overhaul this sometime in the future, along with repacking the FPK files and putting the buttons into altlases.
civ buttons and flags are 90% good imo.
here are some things I'd like to work on:
there are some more playable respawns that might be fun: I am thinking of Makuria, Champa, Liu Song, Pallavas, Vakatakas and maybe even Himyarites. as long as reasonably appropriate and fun goals can be found for them. I'm not saying I'm going to add them all, just that I may add any of them at any time. or this guy.
I'd like to work on the AI, at least in the dept of resource and tech trades. I'd like the trades to be more balanced and I'd like to make it impossible to trade techs to a civ that will never use them ie Sailing to the Tocharians or Elephant Training to the Dacians.
for those who don't know, war declarations in this mod are 99% python only. I didn't disallow wars in the DLL, but I made all the leaders very peaceful. this allowed me to set up a completely new system, based mostly on geography and 3 preset aggression levels. civ attitudes are still mostly in the DLL though and the do have an influence. in case anyone's wondering, if you own land that the AI covets, good relations will protect you to a point. I think this stuff is working fairly well, but I'm interested in what others have experienced.
about Health and Happiness, what about just cutting all the bonuses in half? I want to make H&H harder and more relevant and one of the problems is that just nerfing the starting bonus cripples early cities more than late ones. if the total H&H was halved you could add some of it back in building bonuses and giving certain resources a value of 2, creating a situation where cities could still grow just as big but they would need infrastructure to do so.
about combat, I would just give anything, anything to never see another solo catapult, or the other eyesore this mod seems to produce a lot: the 4 catapults 1 attacker stack. so...
point 1: siege in civ is terrible, its barely above immersion breaking even in K-mod, let alone anything else. imo it has always been fairly broken. that beautifully simple Rome:Total War mechanism keeps coming to mind. it could have been that simple and that good, but they gave us catapults instead.
point 2: whats with the catapults anyway? weren't more sieges decided by blockade, sapping or siege tower and ladder assaults? (I am talking about ancient/medieval siege in civ, not cannons) and weren't a good percentage of siege engines built on the spot? I'm not saying that catapult type units couldn't be a decent way to represent siege in this game, but I don't think it worked, I don't think they are essential and I don't think I would miss them. the best siege unit should be the worker.
point 3: the AI is braindead stupid unless you can bring in K-mod, which no one has been able to do, so siege actually needs to be simpler.
so here is my idea:
catapults can go, gone with no replacement. there is that nice little siege tower animation that kicks in when your unit has a certain amount of bonus city attack. that is enough siege graphics for me.
either the city raider promotions cause collateral damage when attacking cities or all units in cities take colateral damage. the AI does know to attack cities with units that have these promotions.
replace the cultural defense bonus with a static bonus simply reflecting that its easier to defend a town than an open piece of ground. all cities would be a little harder to attack, but the difficulty would top out at a lower level.
a siege mechanic like Rome:Total War should be doable, but I would like to be more comfortable with modding the AI before pursuing it.
along with these changes I'd like to prevent cavalry from being a good city attacker but do it without a negative attack modifier (I just don't like them). I think it can be done by lowering their combat strength while increasing their withdrawal chance, and giving all heavy infantry (Axeman, Heavy Spearman, Swordsman, Heavy Infantry) the +10% city attack that Swordsmen have.
anyway those are my thoughts. comments welcome.
edit: a couple of things I just remembered:
the textile mill. I took it out because it was giving bizarre results. I will add it back.
can't remember the other
edit: oh yeah, mercenaries. I will look at them soon, promise
nvm about the espionage actions, I updated to latest rev and I can sabotage my enemies once again!
About catapults, I had read somewhere that when the Romans attacked Sparta with their "artillery" (catapults, onagers etc), the king Of Sparta while watching from the walls said "By Hercules, this is the end of bravery" or smthing like this. Alexander the Great was also using catapults to attack cities in Bactria, as these cities were situated in areas that his infantry could reach with great difficulty.
Imo, catapults in civ 3 and 5 work perfect. They can bombard the city from far and that's it! That's their role. Bombard the defenses down and retreat.
In RFCCW they could have 2 functions, like bombers in civ 4. One for bringing the defense down, and another to cause collateral damage(which may of course miss some time).
About cavalry, I also believe that they should have a huge penalty for attacking cities. They are here to dominate the fields not to siege towns.
Regarding H&H, nerfing base stats and enhancing bonuses from buildings sounds good. Maybe you could add buildings that produce goods from raw materials and then you could use them and trade them. Eg. to produce milk while controlling a cow resource.
But bear in mind that you must also nerf the cost for all these buildings. If you need 49 years to build a granary, another 35 to build something that will enhance a health bonus and then another 50 for a temple, that's 134 turns of building absolutely no unit in this city.
I can't wait to see what this mod will bring us next!
About catapults, I had read somewhere that when the Romans attacked Sparta with their "artillery" (catapults, onagers etc), the king Of Sparta while watching from the walls said "By Hercules, this is the end of bravery" or smthing like this. Alexander the Great was also using catapults to attack cities in Bactria, as these cities were situated in areas that his infantry could reach with great difficulty.
Imo, catapults in civ 3 and 5 work perfect. They can bombard the city from far and that's it! That's their role. Bombard the defenses down and retreat.
In RFCCW they could have 2 functions, like bombers in civ 4. One for bringing the defense down, and another to cause collateral damage(which may of course miss some time).
About cavalry, I also believe that they should have a huge penalty for attacking cities. They are here to dominate the fields not to siege towns.
Regarding H&H, nerfing base stats and enhancing bonuses from buildings sounds good. Maybe you could add buildings that produce goods from raw materials and then you could use them and trade them. Eg. to produce milk while controlling a cow resource.
But bear in mind that you must also nerf the cost for all these buildings. If you need 49 years to build a granary, another 35 to build something that will enhance a health bonus and then another 50 for a temple, that's 134 turns of building absolutely no unit in this city.
I can't wait to see what this mod will bring us next!
DC123456789
Deity
Yeah, siege units as bombarders sounds better.
Without catapults some cities are impossible to take. Like as a Roman Dacian capital with few archers and UU there.
In DoC there is same problem: cities can grow very big without any buildings that increases happiness and health because resources are so powerfull. Good solution would be to make food resources only give +1 food and no health (you need buildings for that) and happiness would give less happiness or only commerce. Historically cities were very unhelathy and not so big without a prober development but in this mod they simply keep growing regarding how much food is available.
edit: sprt, are you planning importing K-mod here? Please say please, it would make this modmod even better.
In DoC there is same problem: cities can grow very big without any buildings that increases happiness and health because resources are so powerfull. Good solution would be to make food resources only give +1 food and no health (you need buildings for that) and happiness would give less happiness or only commerce. Historically cities were very unhelathy and not so big without a prober development but in this mod they simply keep growing regarding how much food is available.
edit: sprt, are you planning importing K-mod here? Please say please, it would make this modmod even better.
agentxorange
Warlord
Hey sprt, I read in your post you weren't sure about Japan, so I played a UHV game with them to try to see if there was anything that stuck out.
The 1st UHV is good. You can do it by about 390 AD. The 3rd UHV is too easy however. You need to conquer 3 provinces in Korea anyway to get enough XP for your Hainwas to take down the 3 cities in Japan, I ended up finishing it when I got the 1st UHV (conquered Utou).
Past the conquering, there are quite a few difficulties. Since Japan doesn't really have much of a commerce base, there are some serious monetary problems. After taking all of Korea and Japan you are losing serious gold, compounded by the fact that you have a research goal in 450 AD. I don't think it's possible to do. I tried my hardest, I found and traded with every civ possible, I played a serious specialist game, and everything else I could think of. Even after all that I was still about 50 turns away from completing the 2nd UHV (I had just gotten Engineering and was reseraching Paper, still had to do Steel Working). One of the problems is that by the time you get to researching Jurisprudence nobody else has the techs you're researching so the UP isn't super useful. Another problem is that it's not super easy to use GP to research since the scientists want to research Cartography and it's too difficult to get the engineers. My suggestions/thoughts on playing them
1. UHV 1 is fine.
2. UHV 2 is too hard. Japan either needs more workable tiles in Japan itself, for the costs of Steel Working and Paper as well as the costs of techs they require to be reduced (SW is like 10000 beakers), for the specialist research paths to be changed, or just different techs or goals.
3. UHV 3 should be some Buddhism goal since historically, Buddhism spreads in Japan during the 6th century. The current one is easy.
The 1st UHV is good. You can do it by about 390 AD. The 3rd UHV is too easy however. You need to conquer 3 provinces in Korea anyway to get enough XP for your Hainwas to take down the 3 cities in Japan, I ended up finishing it when I got the 1st UHV (conquered Utou).
Past the conquering, there are quite a few difficulties. Since Japan doesn't really have much of a commerce base, there are some serious monetary problems. After taking all of Korea and Japan you are losing serious gold, compounded by the fact that you have a research goal in 450 AD. I don't think it's possible to do. I tried my hardest, I found and traded with every civ possible, I played a serious specialist game, and everything else I could think of. Even after all that I was still about 50 turns away from completing the 2nd UHV (I had just gotten Engineering and was reseraching Paper, still had to do Steel Working). One of the problems is that by the time you get to researching Jurisprudence nobody else has the techs you're researching so the UP isn't super useful. Another problem is that it's not super easy to use GP to research since the scientists want to research Cartography and it's too difficult to get the engineers. My suggestions/thoughts on playing them
1. UHV 1 is fine.
2. UHV 2 is too hard. Japan either needs more workable tiles in Japan itself, for the costs of Steel Working and Paper as well as the costs of techs they require to be reduced (SW is like 10000 beakers), for the specialist research paths to be changed, or just different techs or goals.
3. UHV 3 should be some Buddhism goal since historically, Buddhism spreads in Japan during the 6th century. The current one is easy.
